Apple and Digidesign, competing for our cash.

[Renie]

Apple are muscling into audio -are Digi going to step up a gear??

On the Apple thread someone said there are rumours of some big Digi developments...any more info? any likely timescale?

[Bob Olhsson]

Developers avoid discussing new products like the plague because it leads to people not buying their current products whose sales are financing the new products. Several of Silicone Valley's biggest success stories went bankrupt a few months after announcing a revolutionary new product in advance.

Apple moving into audio and video can only be interpreted as acts of desperation because it kills the incentive for developers.

[Renie]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson


Apple moving into audio and video can only be interpreted as acts of desperation because it kills the incentive for developers.

You think Apple are acting in desperation moving into the fields of it's developers? Would you clarify Bob?

Cheers

[BrianT]

I think what Bob's saying is that when a monopolistic host, such as Apple, begins to compete directly with it's core 3rd party developers, it's only a matter of time before those developers hedge the bets on their own survival by diversifying. I think he's right, as usual.

I've been saying since the day Apple bought Emagic, that it's only a matter of time before Digi heavily hedges it's bets and gets Win XP to *at least* full parity with OSX support. That's a dual issue....app and plugins. The logistics of a whole new OS from Apple have undoubtedly slowed that down a bit, as they must cater to their current customer base, but I continue to believe we will see Digi push XP development heavily. And the fact is, assuming equal PT software revisions and plugin support, Pro Tools is going to run at every bit as well on a solid XP machine as it will on the equivalent OSX G5, whatever emotional attachment one may have to either platform.

And now for a somewhat overlooked fact, I believe. What is the only "high end" TDM plugin company to have identical support for OSX and WinXP on *all* of it's premiere plugins? If you guessed "Bomb Factory", you're correct. Hmmmm, which plugin company was it that Digi just unexpectedly aquired? And I suppose the source code to that large array of plugins, ported to both platforms with identical functionality, would pretty much be a "how to" manual, if you were interested in such things.

I think that's a least a little of the pragmatic side of the idea Bob is presenting.


Regards,
Brian T

[Renie]

Thanks Brian. Very interesting on the BF angle.

I was wondering if Bob felt Apple were motivated by desperation themselves, I had thought they were doing OK.

I'm hoping that Digidesign will get get more focussed on improving their products as a result of the competition. I hope their move to bring the PC market to Mac standards doesn't take up too much of their development investment.

[Bob Olhsson]

XP Pro Tools 6 is indeed coming on like gang-busters.

Apple always says they are doing OK but these are folks well known to stretch the truth...

One good thing for Apple is that Avid has just released system-X versions of their high-end pro video editing system now that Apple finally makes a powerful enough computer to run it. Most pro video I see is running on Windows these days so it'll be interesting to see if the video folks go back to Macs or the Final Cut folks move to Avid. The latest versions of Avid's Media Composer finally supports 24 bit audio.

[David R.]

Originally posted by BrianT

And now for a somewhat overlooked fact, I believe. What is the only "high end" TDM plugin company to have identical support for OSX and WinXP on *all* of it's premiere plugins? If you guessed "Bomb Factory", you're correct. Hmmmm, which plugin company was it that Digi just unexpectedly aquired? And I suppose the source code to that large array of plugins, ported to both platforms with identical functionality, would pretty much be a "how to" manual, if you were interested in such things.

Brian, I have been out of the loop for a couple of months, but did Digi buy the Bomb?

Oh my, Erik, what have you done?

Set me straight, if I am, ummmm, crooked.

[Noah]

Interesting thoughts guys...

From a developers perspective Digi is pushing very hard for full XP support. I understand the reasons, but it is also tricky to have to deal with.

If you were a business, what would you do first? A, make a new plug-in that you will possibly sell hundreds of. B, port existing plugs to XP that you might sell 10 of?

I know that there are lots of variables in that equation, but it shows the point...

Now, on to other things...

I think that Digi buying Bomb Factory was less about getting the knowledge of how to port to XP (they already know how to do that just fine) but more about competing with Apple giving away 50 plugs for free...

From a plug-in developers point of view it sucks. Not because of a free economy, but because apple is blowing the bottom out of the market, and real high-end developers like us will be left in the cold.

Apple doesn't care if they loose money when making plug-ins as long as they can say they are at the top of the audio game. This means they want the press, and they want to sell computers...

They have more at stake. I suppose it's kinda like Digi giving away their software for free with an interface. I bet that Nuendo isn't real happy that for $500 bucks you get an M-Box, as well as the software with it.

I suppose the real question will lie in what is the interface? Can Apple create a computer that doesn't need an HD I/O and process cards? If they can Digi's job will be much harder. Typically we have seen some of that be the case, but not all. They may still rely on Digi (for instance) for I/O boxes, but want to sell the computer/processing themselves.

So who knows what is going to happen...I don't think that Garage Band really plays in this equation. It might be the first step though. Logic is still very different than Pro Tools. They don't really do the same thing, and they are designed in different ways.

Still, the plug-ins are kinda the same...(Except if we made an auto-filter that sounded like the one in logic we would be shot...) I don't know what it will mean. Obviously pro's will still want innovative, great sounding stuff.

If the level of all DAW's gets high enough so the pro and the consumer are at the same place we will do fine because of volume. Our prices are already dropping very significantly due to good copy protection and volume goals.

Right...I think I'm done rambling now...I hope I made some sense.

Noah
(SoundToys)

[Jules]

Erik sold BF to Digi just recently.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by BrianT:
What is the only "high end" TDM plugin company to have identical support for OSX and WinXP on *all* of it's premiere plugins? If you guessed "Bomb Factory", you're correct. Hmmmm, which plugin company was it that Digi just unexpectedly aquired? And I suppose the source code to that large array of plugins, ported to both platforms with identical functionality, would pretty much be a "how to" manual, if you were interested in such things.

Spot on, Brian, for pointing out such a key aspect of this equation.

Another such key in the equation (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong here), would be in the audio-interface hardware side. A-D convertors seems not something a company simply jumps into, and Digi has a huge advance on Apple in that regard.

Digi has been manufacturing both software AND its relevant hardware for some time now. LOTS of companies make audio software, but what has always set Digi apart from the crowd? Their hardware. Like the stuff or not, Digi's hardware has always been at least one or two steps ahead of every other DAW manufacturer's.

Don't get me wrong: Competition is good. But Digi has a strong history of pulling a "Michael Jordon" on every "threat" to its dominance in this area.

It's ironic, you know: The thing peeps always bitched about the most with Digi was their jealously guarded proprietary nature - that is what has kept them so fiercely competitive over the years - the fact that you MUST use Digi's hardware to use their software. Peeps always bitched about that, but Digi always stuck with that, and that's how they've stayed in the game all this time.

For me, personally, Digi's hardware interface was the key. I had used other DAW softwares previously, but Digi's overall system stability sold me. It would take a truly impressive display of software and hardware integration by a rival company/companies to sway me to consider an alternative at this point. Apple may indeed have something up their sleeve, but I'm not holding my breath.

[DBW68]

Speaking of cash, Apple has approx. 2.6 billion dollars in cash to go with a roughly 9 billion $ market cap v/s a TOTAL market cap of about 1.36 billion for Avid / digidesign. Apple could swallow them up fairly easily I would think if it made any sense.

[nkf]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
Apple moving into audio and video can only be interpreted as acts of desperation because it kills the incentive for developers.

Very good description! Apple is really trying to close it's platform and will probably piss off more and more developers. Maybe in a not so distant future we have a hermetic platform Apple with it's own apps and no third party developments and a quite open Windows platform with a broad set of developers on the other side. Sadly enough many MAC 'believers' don't realize these serious developments.
Personally I worked on both platforms many years and shift more and more work from MACs to PCs. Apple is not a platform I want to rely on in the future (working since 1990 with MACs).
The Digidesign MAC OS X situation concerning PT Mix cards and Panther on G4's is exactly one of these things I wouldn't miss. Even PT TDM is reported to run very well on XP these days. Digidesign would be mad if they don't think about Windows as the main platform for them in the future.

[Jack Ruston]

It does run well. I've been using it for about three months now, and I've had very few problems. There are a few plugins that dont work, but I dont mix in the box, so its really not that crucial to have every last one.

I also had bad luck with my G4 867 and PT. It just never settled down. Digi tried to sort it, I tried, other people tried, I had the worlds most stripped out OS etc, but it was just flaky so the PC for me is a major improvement.

Basically I can confirm that although there is still only a very small number of users on PC, this is certainly not due to deficiency in the platform.

J