Need advice on new control room layout

[Brad McGowan]

Hi all,

I’ve been giving a lot of thought lately to moving my control room into one of the bigger rooms in my studio. I’m currently in a very small, acoustically troublesome shoebox of a room. However, the front room of my studio is much larger and would likely make a much more functional mixing environment for many reasons. The front room is currently being used as a lounge and storage for the upgright piano and some of my many amps and cabs. It doubles as an iso room for guitar cabs during basic tracking sessions. The idea would be to make the front room a control room / tracking space (for things where I want easy communication with the artist like vocals), and then turn the existing control room into an iso booth.

I’m attaching three pics of the front room as it currently exists. It’s approximately 12 ft wide x 17 ft. long, x 11 ft. high. It has a big roll-up garage door facing out into the alley. Straight ahead through the black door is the live room (red walls). To the left is the gray door to the control room. You’ll notice that there is a storage loft above the control room (above the “clean room” sign) which only has 8 feet ceilings. On blue wall of the front room there are mirrors so that’s why it may look bigger than it is.

My idea right now is to have a wall built blocking off the garage door and creating a more permanent boundary from the outside world. Ideally I would have the garage door removed and then wall over that whole entrance, but I don’t think that will be allowed by the building owner. So short of that, we’ll build a wall that will provide security. I’m sure it will stop some sound from the outside getting in, but of course it will still allow some sound to pass by since the wall will likely only extend 7 or 8 feet high to allow the garage door to still function. I’m going to have the wall built at an angle to help break up standing waves in the room.

Some constraints:

1. I need to maintain a pathway from the black live room door to the outside of the building so that bands can safely and easily get musical equipment in and out of the live room. This might require locating the mix position off-center.
2. I’d like to put the couch in a place where clients can hear what’s being mixed.
3. I’d like the space to be useful as a recording space where artists can perform overdubs in front of the monitors.

My questions for everyone here:

1. What angle would you build the wall at to be most effective in breaking up the room modes? 6 degrees? 12 degrees? I’ve heard both numbers tossed around.

2. Which way would you set up the mix position to facilitate the three constraints above?

3. Any suggestions for positioning acoustic treatment? I have a bunch of GIK traps and some Real Traps as well. I’ll likely be ordering a bunch more. Where might you hang stuff it this were your room?

4. Any other tips or suggestions to enhance the functionality of this space?

Thanks,
Brad

P.S. Sorry the pics are crappy resolution. It's the only thing I had on hand and I had to shrink the file size to be able to upload, but at least it gives you some idea what I'm working with.

[Brad McGowan]

Forgot to ask this because maybe it's a dumb question. Is it even worth it to consider setting up the mix position so that the speakers face diagonally across the room?

Brad

[Ethan Winer]

Brad,

What angle would you build the wall at to be most effective in breaking up the room modes? 6 degrees? 12 degrees? I’ve heard both numbers tossed around.

In a room that size I wouldn't use angles at all. Angles can be useful, but not if it makes a small room even smaller. Also, angles do nothing for room modes. What you might be thinking of is angling the walls to avoid flutter echo at higher frequencies without having to add absorption just for that. But in this room absorption is a better choice.

Which way would you set up the mix position to facilitate the three constraints above?

See this:

http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm

There's also a video version here (second link on the page):

http://www.realtraps.com/videos.htm

Any suggestions for positioning acoustic treatment?

Not to keep posting links, but it's easier than writing the same stuff repeatedly. See here:

http://www.realtraps.com/placing_mt.htm

Is it even worth it to consider setting up the mix position so that the speakers face diagonally across the room?

No, and you'll see why in my Room Setup article (and/or video).

--Ethan

[Brad McGowan]

Hi Ethan,

Thanks for the response. I have read many of the articles at your site and they have helped me immensely in setting up my current control room. I'll have to revisit some of them and see if there's anything more applicable to my new situation.

It's interesting that you would recommend against angling the wall. I have that Secret of the Pros DVD and was just reviewing the section where studio designer, Manny LaCarrubba, talks about room setup and acoustics. He advocated angling the rear wall of a rectangular room to break up modes. Perhaps my particular room is just too small for that to be effective. But I would be interested to get other people's takes on this.

thanks,
Brad

[Glenn Kuras]

I would agree with Ethan on this. Making the angle is only going to make the room smaller.. I may be wrong, but don't you have some kind of ramp panels for the first reflections in the room? I have not used those, but can see how they might work well.

Glenn

[Brad McGowan]

Hey Glenn,

Those ramp panels are in the current control room. This would all be for that purple/green/blue front room.

Okay another question for you two gurus: would you put absorbtion or diffusion of the rear wall behind the mix position if the room is only about 16-17 feet long?

Glenn--tried to call you a week or so ago, but I never heard back. Slacker!

thanks,
Brad

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Okay another question for you two gurus: would you put absorbtion or diffusion of the rear wall behind the mix position if the room is only about 16-17 feet long?

Glenn--tried to call you a week or so ago, but I never heard back. Slacker!

[Brad McGowan]

And I tried again today... Don't want me to give you any business?

Ethan, Glenn, or anyone: Do you think I should put diffusion on the rear wall behind the mix position or absorbtion?

thanks,
Brad

[Scott@RealTraps]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Okay another question for you two gurus: would you put absorbtion or diffusion of the rear wall behind the mix position if the room is only about 16-17 feet long?

Absorption. No question (IMHO). I typically recommend that people not use diffusors where they will be any closer than 10 feet from your head (i.e., listening position) can muck up your imaging anywhere from a bit to a whole lot, depending on the type and quality of the diffusors, and you will often be hearing a bit too much of the anomalies (i.e., comb filtering) that happen across the face of diffusors. These issues tend ESPECIALLY to be the case with cheap, poorly designed diffusors. Same issues with imaging using diffusors as opposed to absorption at first reflection points.

That said, Ethan and I have talked about this a bit, and I believe he has found our diffusors to not be problematic even closer than 10 feet (if I'm not mistaken, he's tried the "near" version of our diffusors at closer range, but I don't know if he tried the "far" version that close), but we haven't had a chance to do enough adequate testing in this regard, so I tend to stick to standard recommendations even with our diffusors when I'm asked for my recommendations. Ethan and I have been meaning to get together to do some more subjective testing (you really need more than one person to do the necessary testing), but we haven't yet had a chance, since Ethan's up in CT and I'm in NYC (and I don't have a car at the mo).

If you are going to use diffusors in a small control room, you really need something that will deal with low frequencies as well, and not just highs and mids -- which means you either need some *really* deep welled diffusors (and good quality ones like this are *very* expensive), or something that does diffusion for the highs and mids, and absorption for the low frequencies. And anything that will do a good job in this role is going to be more expensive. For this reason, too, I think absorption is a better option for small rooms (and particularly for small control rooms!), as it is much more cost-effective.

One of the problems with cheap plastic diffusors is that they don't necessarily scatter sound evenly in the way you really want them to, and they may not really have the most even balance across the frequency spectrum for which they are intended to address (which is why, while things like book shelves, etc. do diffuse sound, they are not really proper diffusors). Also . . . some of the cheap hollow plastic diffusors may have some resonance of their own that is not particularly ideal. (In those cases, it may be worth your while to stuff those diffusors with fluffy fiberglass, which would cut down resonance and also potentially give them at least some capability for LF absorption.)

Mind you, I'm actually not trying to disparage your use of the diffusors you have in your studio (and I actually quite like the panels on those light fixtures that are a bit like small polys!). Some of this stuff is much less of an issue in a tracking room, where you just want to cut down on the flutter echo and retain a little bit of presence/ambiance in the room, where precise stereo imaging is not the critical aim (or even necessary for recording certain things, for that matter), but in a control room where you will be making critical mixing decisions, you want to be very careful with this.

To give you an idea, we did an acoustics makeover for a certain grammy nominated hip hop producer's studio last summer. He had QRD diffusors across the back wall of his control room, somewere around 9 to 12 feet behind the listening position (don't remember the exact dimensions of the room at the mo).

One of the first things I noticed when I first visited the studio was that his imaging was a mess (and he was managing some good sounding mixes despite the imaging problems -- I think he had just gotten so used to working that way). I initially intended to leave the diffusors in, but even after adding a significant amount of treatment to his control room, including treating the first reflection points, the imaging still was not to my satisfaction. So I pulled diffusors down and replaced them with some MiniTraps and MondoTraps. The imaging was *exponentially* better, and of course he was thrilled with it.

When I talked with him later, he said that he found he had to go back and redo a bunch of mixes on some projects he was working on, because he started hearing so much more in his mixes. He said he could hear so much deeper into the mix, and he had never been able to hear so deeply into a mix before in any studio he had been in.

About a month ago, I had the chance to hear some more recent tracks he had mixed. While I always liked the sound/production of his tracks, the more recent stuff had a deep, three-dimensional image that had not been present in his mixes before. He had stuff that was sitting way to the back of the sound stage (but still very clearly audible), and there was stuff that was popping out front of the speakers and tickling your earlobes. So much more depth and space in his mixes.

Anyway . . . if you had a large control room where it was possible to have things like 700 ms reverb time, etc., then my recommendations might be a bit different, but for small control rooms, I really feel that absorption is the best, most cost-effective option. You're really in too close quarters for there to be enough time delay between direct sound from your monitors and reflected sound that your ears will readily identify the difference between the two.

Hehe . . . sorry for the long, anecdotal post, but hopefully that will be helpful to you (and/or others who may happen across the thread). It's a question that come up fairly often, so I figured I'd riff on it a bit.

[Scott@RealTraps]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Forgot to ask this because maybe it's a dumb question. Is it even worth it to consider setting up the mix position so that the speakers face diagonally across the room?

Nope . . . not such a good idea. I actually have my monitors set up in my place like this (I knew it wasn't going to be the best, but at the time it seemed like the best overall layout for work space, and I hoped that I could use acoustic treatment to overcome some of the problems).

At the moment I've got my work station and monitors pointing out from a corner of the room, with a HUGE frackin' DIY bass trap taking up the majority of the corner space, and absorption on the two walls coming out from the corner.

I've *never* been happy with the overall sound or imaging with this arrangement -- I'm sure I'd need a HECKUVALOT more acoustic treatment to make this work, and even then I don't feel it would be optimal.

So I keep meaning to rearrange my setup, but haven't had a chance to do so yet.

Also . . . I'll just add my +1 to Ethan's and Glenn's recommendations to not bother with building an angled wall:

1. it doesn' fix modal problems (no matter what anybody tells you!);

2. if anything, it makes the acoustics issues more unpredictable;

3. it would waste valuable space; and

4. you really need a fairly large amount of broadband absorption in there anyway (especially in cinderblock/brick/concrete rooms, which don't offer any significant transmission loss at any of the modal frequencies of concern), if you want to properly address the modal issues -- use those corners, man!

[Brad McGowan]

Scott,

Thanks for the great responses. Alright, now I'm track. I think you basically reconfirmed everything I already suspected would be the correct approach. Sometimes it's just good to hear it from someone else to make sure that you aren't doing anything dumb. Especially when construction and financial investment is concerned, you really don't want to have to do this stuff more than once. I actually had a similar experience with switch from diffusors (in my current control room) to absorbers on the rear wall. It really helped open everything up big time.

Okay, so what I'm going to do is just build the wall normal to the other walls to maximize space. I'll treat the low frequency problems with corner absorbers. I'll go ahead and set up the mix position so that I'm facing the wall with the window.

Thanks again for the excellent advice! I'll be sure to take pictures when things are complete.

Brad

[Ethan Winer]

Guys,

Ethan and I have talked about this a bit, and I believe he has found our diffusors to not be problematic even closer than 10 feet

Right, so in Brad's room he might benefit from diffusion there. If the length is 16 feet, that puts the listening position about 10 feet from the wall behind. But there's no question that truly broadband absorbers like HF MondoTraps would do at least as well and probably even better than diffusion.

--Ethan