check my studio plans plz

[seaneldon]

Do you have any REAL plans for bass trapping? Because you'll need to account for the extra space they'll need. Think about your corners. You've got your control room door all the way in the corner of the room, so any kind of corner trap there would definitely get in the way of the door opening or closing.

Also, you might want to rethink your enormous triangle of a vocal booth.

And the picture is not so clear, but are you going to put the speakers at the computer desk, or the console? If you're putting them at the console, you're going to want to swap the position of the computer desk and mixer to get your speakers away from the back wall, and so you're firing down the long-way of the room.

Where are your power drops? Audio drops? Air intake and exhaust?

[rmproduction]

Disjointed -

Go check out the forum at www.johnlsayers.com - everything you need on studio design is there and if you post up plans some members might draw up some extra ones for you to consider.

Hope this helps,

E.D

[Disjointed]

thx for the replies
john slayers seems to have a lot of good info...

answers:
monitors on (near) desk
traps = computer wall corners & real wall ceiling w/ wall broadbands.. overhead cloud and maybe rear wall diffusion?
i dont think there is anywhere else i can move the steps too.. ? ideas?

power = run from floor.. standard 6' placement
audio = floor pop up? , closets, various walls (run 4' high) - -> wall behind console
vents = no a/c .. radiant floor heat (hydronic?) = no vents..
vocal booth - i know its kinda big.. maybe cut the corners and put some traps there instead..

i live in the country.. no noise in/out isnt a problem... just want separation + good acoustics

thx

[Disjointed]

ok heres a modified plan with bass traps shown (except the ceiling one and wall style - i cant figure those out yet)

keep the comments and ideas coming plz!
thx

[Tim Farrant]

I have found that you are better off listening across a skinny room rather than down it, as drawn. Because, the side wall reflections are going to cause severe comb filtering affects at the listening position. If you place the monitors along the long wall, and ensure the wall area directly behind you is very absorbent, then you can use reflections from the now far away side walls usefully.

Because you have a window on the side wall as drawn, you cannot place absorbent there to deal with reflections. Believe me, I've been down this road many MANY times with clients.

And another rule of thumb I always stick to in control room design; keep it as symetrical (L to R) as possible.

Good luck with it.

Tim.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Tim Farrant

I have found that you are better off listening across a skinny room rather than down it, as drawn.

I agree. I doubt that CRM will sound good. You need to find a way to get rid of the "shoebox" design in the CRM. Some angles on the walls will help out. Keep at it. Pretty soon some new solutions will pop into your mind.

[SeanG]

Originally Posted by Disjointed

vents = no a/c .. radiant floor heat (hydronic?) = no vents..

No AC? It's going to get hot... real hot. Upstairs, with a lot of extra insulation on the ceiling (bass traps), multiple people, lights and gear running in a small space… in the summer you will probably cook a drummer or two.

Excessive heat during sessions can lead to lethargy and bad tempers.
Even If you have AC downstairs the cold air will not migrate upstairs with out mechanical assistance.

My AC wants to run all the time. But I only run it during breaks and over night, it's just enough to take the edge off… even with an oversized outdoor pad unit.

I'm in a cold weather state also and while the studio is in use the heat never cycles on even in the dead of winter. I’m sealed up and insulated pretty well, so the heat tends to dissipate slowly.

I can not really think of any good solutions though… cheapest and easiest route is window units, but they are vibe killers. Plus they're a pain because you have to keep going around turning them on and off all the time as opposed to one central thermostat. You could run a single dedicated line for both units (assuming you had two, which you will probably need because of the aforementioned acoustic isolation and no direct path from room) and put a single switch to turn them both on and off easily, just make sure the breaker can handle it, as turning on multiple AC units together can tend to pop fuses. Consult your local building and electrical inspector/codes before doing any work.

You could just ignore all this and tell your clients they need to sweat for their art and heat exhaustion is “in”.

[Disjointed]

thx for the replies..

i understand the shoebox to be a problem... but repositioning it seems to be a problem as well.. mainly the steps add hassles to everything..

I have considered angle-ing the control room.. and moving the vox box to the upper left.. but i dont think the steps will allow that

i was planning on a 3 degree wall angle for both control room walls.. but my prog wont let me express that correctly...

i have been working on symmetry.. thats why there is an exterior window across from the control room window...

i will probably have to put some window a/c in.. i guess.. my current setup doesnt have any either, but it does get pretty hot in the summer..

would it be better to push the windows back and add some absorption to the side walls, near the monitors?...

everything ive heard so far (apart from this thread) says go long wise if you can.. so im trying to do that the best i can.. though i do see where youre coming from...

at least it seems like everyone likes the live room/ iso designs... thats a step in the right direction...

thx for all your help so far

[Scott R. Foster]

DisJ

I would add a few more corner and reflection point panels to the control room - and maybe seme curtains for the front wall - something like the attached.

And check your room dimensions in the control room for good ratios here:

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

I might try a room this skinny with a rotated layout as suggested above [wide/shallow instead of skinny/deep] - but keep things symmetric either way.

A few ceiling panels in the live room and a few scattered walls panels to knock down the prospect of axial flutter and get the room to the right level of live/dead and I think you got it [the large corner mounted panel in the live room is a great idea if you can spare the space [the grey panels are absorbers.. right?].

Good Luck!

[Glenn Kuras]

Scott has given you some great ideas. So just to add you may want to think about your back wall. Not sure what your plan is but I would either put some diffusion back there or 4" panels. If you do go with diffusion you HAVE to get the real stuff, which will run you a arm and leg. Look at RPG or Real Traps for that.

Glenn

[Disjointed]

thx.. i like the link but dont know how to use it with the new plans...

width starts at x goes to x + 3' or so..

height... is vaulted.. start at 8 .. goes to ?? (12 feet at 22.5 degrees)

yes the grey panels are absorbers (custom made 703 was the plan)
i am all about the cloud, drapes, and wall traps...,
but i dont like moving the door... loss of isolation?
would a ceiling corner absorption work as well for the back wall?

hers an updated plan with the 3 degree walls .. better or worse?

should i also angle the rear of the walls in (3 degrees off the back wall, 6 degrees off the side wall- or more)??

thx for the help

[Albert]

This most recent plan with the non-parallel walls looks a lot better, but you need to incorporate Scott's idea of moving the door. You need direct access from the control room to the live room. This is a big deal as far as convenience and will allow you more flexibility in setting up the control room as well.

The door can be a double door, something you see all the time in studios. Anyway, you don't need perfect isolation between the live room and the control room. If the door is done properly it should provide about the same isolation as a solid wall, when it is closed.

Going all the way around and through two doors to get from the control room to the live room is going to get old *very* fast. Think of all the mic adjustments that need to be made in a typical session, the setting up, moving stuff around, etc. Do you really want to take the long way and go through two doors in each direction every single time you need to make the trip?

[Tim Farrant]

Originally Posted by Disjointed

everything ive heard so far (apart from this thread) says go long wise if you can.. so im trying to do that the best i can.. though i do see where youre coming from...

Well I would be so bold to suggest that those who say this are misinformed, or at best, have never had to actually work in a shoe box controlroom.

Here is a studio I am designing right now with a similar problem, shallow depth in the CR. But but having the direct rear absorbent and the rear corners reflective and angled, you can achieve reflections delayed sufficiently (greater than 15mS) to be useful.

Tim.

[drBill]

The narrow room is giving me ugly feelings just looking at it on paper. In reality with gear in there, it's not going to be a "fun" place IMO. Consider doing something unconventional. A one room studio. Daniel Lanois and many others work that way. No, it's not the best solution, but it's going to give you the best CRM and also a workable recording room. Another option - can you put the stairs on the outside?

[Scott R. Foster]

DJ:

I wouldn't cant the walls like that... IMO, doing so makes a too skinny room, even more skinny. Also, it won't solve any problems that can't be addressed in other ways [perhaps better ways in a room this size] and causes a number of other problems [such as making the modal behavior difficult to predict and may inhibit the process of optimizing the mix position and equipment layout].

For modal calcs, get the room square again, and put in a very large number in for height so you can look at the length and width ratios independently. When you have L&W worked out... then change the height in the model to that of the peak to get an idea of what effect that geometry will have.If you have a high/peaked ceiling consider adding extensive absorptive elements to the high parts... maybe even a section of ceiling grid with acoustic tiles and a roll insulation topper. A small room such as this could use some significant low frequency control and the ceiling apex "corner" might be a convenient place to install some.

I would take a hard look at a wide format... Tim's room looks like a much better place to work than either of the designs you have come up with so far IMO. Many a professionally designed control room is laid out in a wide format... click through this firm's articles on room and equipment layout, and note the various approaches they adopt - many of them wide format:

http://www.wsdg.com/dynamic.php5?id=...axi/smallrooms

You can build a "sound lock" for both the control room door and the door to the stairs in the corner of the live room to make getting the transmission loss across the door systems easier to achieve.

If you keep the bookcase - try and optimize its absorptive/diffusive acoustic behavior at the reflection point by adding contents to the upper shelves that will exhibit those properties... if you don't install the book case; then consider installing an acoustic treatment element(s) to achieve absorption/diffusion and diminish the rear wall flat plate reflection.

Good Luck!

[Disjointed]

great, thanks for the replies!

taking all into consideration i will rework and post a couple of new plans later today..

using the mode calc, it has helped me to determine that a 4' closet at one end of the long room will improve my ratios significantly.. plus i do need a place for storage...
also the room fairs pretty well (calc wise) .. only minor trouble from 29-76hz

i will design for the wide room this time instead of the long as well....

a one room option is no good for me... thats what i do now (for the most part)... and i really prefer the separated CRM

thx for all

[Disjointed]

alright.. how is this one...

should the rear wall be absorption or diffusion?

window moved to across from closet doors..

i think i can accurately make a Quadratic residue diffuser .. would that work?
http://www.mhsoft.nl/DiffusorCalculator.html

thx

[Dave Peck]

You still have a lot of parallel walls and right angles in the control room and in the vocal booth and that can cause lots of problems with standing waves. Get rid of those. How about something like this? A few slight angle changes to some walls, move the door out of the corner & use a double door, and if you want to shorten the room or add a separate space for storage or noisy gear you can turn the end of the control room nearest the stairs into a separate machine room, which also allows you to angle the wall again.

DP

[Disjointed]

is there a minimum angle for non-parallel walls.. sounds like a silly question but....??

since my last attempt at angled walls was shot down.. 1 degree slant would keep a lot of space in here

i am really trying to avoid the double door too...

[orange]

Can I suggest that if you angle some walls that you don't do it randomly. You should still aim to get room symmetry from the mix position. That is, both sides of the room should be a mirror image, perpendicular to the plane of the speakers centred on a point midway between the speakers.

Hope that makes sense ??!? it's much more simple than I've written it !!!!

[Cojo]

Originally Posted by Disjointed

is there a minimum angle for non-parallel walls.. sounds like a silly question but....??

Well, I've read somewhere that the absolute minimum angle should be at least 6 degrees. And as you want the control room symetric the angle between two "parallel" walls should be at least 12 deg.

This will however not improve the low end response that still need to be treated. So if you have a limited space it's more efficient to, so to speak, "save space" by not angle the walls and instead use traps.

[nathanvacha]

well i'll add at least that, provided your picture w/ the chair and desk is fairly to scale, the sideways control room looks a million times better for workability. it looks more comfortable to be in and also provides a more comfortable line of sight to the live room, i think.

and your potential space is 24' wide? that seems like plenty of space to allow you room to splay the walls.

[Dave Peck]

[QUOTE=orange;1152603]Can I suggest that if you angle some walls that you don't do it randomly. You should still aim to get room symmetry from the mix position. QUOTE]

Yes, that would be better. I couldn't picture a way to do it that wouldn't result in too much front-to-rear parallelism, but maybe something like this, with some symetrical angles to break up the front-to-rear parallels?

DP

[Scott R. Foster]

DJ:

All rooms have standing waves... regardless of wall angle... they just get very complicated to predict and control in oddly shaped rooms.

Canting walls won't change the fact your room produces modal resoances... and to the extent this sort of jiggery pokery screws up symmetry, reduces room volume, or wastes floor space [hard to avoid in a space this small once you start playing with screwy angles] you have caused more problems than you have solved.

What you can do with odd wall shapes is

a) remove the possibility of flutter echo [the rule of thumb for killing flutter echo is divergence from parallel by 1 inch per linear foot of wall - a 1:12 ratio], but by the time you have done bass trapping and early reflection control in a room this size the likelihood of flutter being a problem is remote;

b) control early reflections by redirecting them away from the mix position [but given the need to reduce reverb field strength in a room this size using broadband absorptive treatments for early reflection control, not only preserves room volume and floor space, but is cheaper and easier to affect than "bent" walls - also it is possible to adjust the treatment scheme / room layout if/when you have major equipment/furniture upgrades without have to demolish and rebuild your walls].

The chief benefit of canted/convolved wall shapes IMO, in a room this size, is that they can look cool [never to be underestimated]. If you are convinced you want to do it, perhaps focus on early reflection control. You might want to read this paper, and take a look at some of the ideas this researcher explored.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1995-04.pdf

lots more here:

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/r...60s_70to96.pdf

Good Luck!

[Disjointed]

thx for all the replies..

those are some excellent links scott.. plenty of reading on everything....
i really like the idea of moving away from dead rooms.

ive attached another plan with some angled outside walls (though only 3 degrees = this comes close to the 1:12 ratio)... i did not angle the walls in front of the desk, near the view window.. it seems that i could not get those to angle without increasing the amount or early reflection from the back of the speakers.. directly to my listening position...

would some soffit built-in monitors be the way to go ???

thx

[Scott R. Foster]

Nice...

[Anderson]

Why don't you ask an acoustician/studio designer in your region?
Most of them have competitive packages for home studios / project studios.

That would be the wisest thing to do IMHO.

If you don't, chances are you will regret it...

[Disjointed]

although the idea of a acoustical consultant isnt a bad one...

i dont think i can afford one... my project budget for this is around $25,000 (luckily as a carpenter/contractor labor is free)..

the additional cost of $5k -$10k... would surely go over budget....

so i rely on friendly GearSlutz to help me out....

I'm not going for perfect here.. it is mostly a 'project' studio.. very small income (though i do hope to increase that)..but i am going for something that will sound 'pretty' good..

I dont plan on quitting my day job.... I do plan on making good sounding albums...


and.. THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR ALL THE HELP !!