ALL ABOUT SONGWRITING & ARRANGEMENT?

[quietdrive]

Two days ago a friend of mine, who works at a studio in LA, played me a demo version of a very recent hit song. The demo was supposedly recorded/programmed entirely in the box, except for the vocals, which were recorded with a SM57 through a Firepod. I must say, the demo sounded fantastic. The guitars were done with Guitar Rig 2 but you couldn't really tell that it was a plugin. Same with the drums (EZ Drummer), bass and keyboard (didnt ask my friend what plugins they used here). Point is, each track sat perfectly in the mix, even though the demo was never mixed. It really made me question whether or not the fuss about gear and recording techniques is justifiable.

I am sure that both is important, songwriting & arrangement, as well as gear and how you track, plus performance. Great gear can make a song shine really bright, there's no question about it, but how important is gear really? 5, 10, 20 of 100%?

This is especially aimed at pro engineers who regularly work with famous songwriters/producers and are able to tell, based on experience, how big usually the difference between the demo and final album version of a song is.

[PistolP]

..but gear makes no hits. it is songwriting/arranging. it is like the talent/amount of work relationship 10/90.

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by PistolP

..but gear makes no hits. it is songwriting/arranging. it is like the talent/amount of work relationship 10/90.

But thats the thing thats up for a debate cause I dont think everyone shares your opinion. I've heard engineers say stuff like "gear can make or break your song".

[Led]

I would love to know who said it - while gear makes some obvious and some not so obvious tonal changes to the track, none of it is going to matter if the arrangement is not a good one. A good arrangement will allow each instrument to have it's own space without stepping on the others and when instruments are close to each other they will work in harmony rather than fighting. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for what a good engineer brings to a mix, and what well designed gear can do, but none of that will make a badly arranged piece of music into a good one. It will just be a beautifully recorded piece of crap.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

It really made me question whether or not the fuss about gear and recording techniques is justifiable.

It's only important if the song and players are great in the first place. If they are not, it's not worth it...

[quietdrive]

But that brings up the question of "How many % of the artists/bands who go into a professional studio are actually READY to record?"

I'd say maybe 1 out of 10.

Just recently I dropped by my friends studio, he was in a session. The rhythm guitarist of the band he was recording with played open chords with full distortion on, wondering why his take sounded all muddy. My friend then said to him "Turn down the distortion a little bit and play power chords". His reply "What are power chords? I play the song like this all the time."

[djui5]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

His reply "What are power chords? I play the song like this all the time."

That's the kinda thing that should be fixed in pre-production, OUTSIDE of the studio.

[No4PCs]

If the music is good and the performers good too, 90% is done !

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Two days ago a friend of mine, who works at a studio in LA, played me a demo version of a very recent hit song. The demo was supposedly recorded/programmed entirely in the box, except for the vocals, which were recorded with a SM57 through a Firepod. I must say, the demo sounded fantastic. The guitars were done with Guitar Rig 2 but you couldn't really tell that it was a plugin. Same with the drums (EZ Drummer), bass and keyboard (didnt ask my friend what plugins they used here). Point is, each track sat perfectly in the mix, even though the demo was never mixed. It really made me question whether or not the fuss about gear and recording techniques is justifiable.

I am sure that both is important, songwriting & arrangement, as well as gear and how you track, plus performance. Great gear can make a song shine really bright, there's no question about it, but how important is gear really? 5, 10, 20 of 100%?

This is especially aimed at pro engineers who regularly work with famous songwriters/producers and are able to tell, based on experience, how big usually the difference between the demo and final album version of a song is.

I'd love to hear that, or know what song it was

[Jose Mrochek]

A great mix is equaly as important as a great arrangement.

One cannot live without the other. A bad mix can definetly kill a great arrangement.
Whats the purpose of a great salad if you are going to add a ton of vinegar later on..

Gear at tracking time is the least important in the chain I believe. Pre's, Mic's, Converter's.. CERO importance as to the success of a song.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

...but how important is gear really?

your question begs for clarification: important to what?

to the likeability of a song? it's critical to me because i love gorgeous tones; it's unimportant to my brother because he can't hear the difference.

to the potential of being a hit? it's important, but not as important as the performance/arrangement and the energy of the mix.

to making a beautiful sounding recording? it's a sine qua non, and is every bit as important as all the other factors.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[DeathMonkey]

I don't think anyone has ever said " that song would be a hit if they had used a 421 instead of a 57 on that cab" or "gee, I was going to buy that record, but I can't stand those converters". That said, you always want to give a song it's best chance to stand out. It's not just sonics, but bringing out the best part of the artist, revealing the magic that's there that a well engineered recording does.

Bringing out Sade's breathy sigh, taming Sting's aggressive yelp, highlighting Bon Jovi's boyish earnestness while also working in Ritchie Sambora's polished roar... these are the things that add that extra something. It's not just GOOD sounds, it's specific sounds that relate to the artist.

There are a lot of songs that are all style and no substance, and any great song SHOULD be able to be played on an acoustic by a campfire and still have force. But for a song and artist to really compete, you have to be firing on all cylinders, and that means not just GOOD engineering, it means APPROPRIATE engineering, which, IMHO, is what defines the best in the biz.

[Bo Jorgen]

Modern production has its flavour/vibe. In the 80's, a lot of rather crappy bands/songs here in Stockholm had success because they had a modern sound. You all remember it. That's where production and gear can help.

A lot of those songs would never have made it without the gear and production styles of the era. The same may be true today.

Did that stuff survive? Sure, at birthday parties. Children of the 60's and 70's getting pissed and singing along on the dance floor. Musically? Not really.

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by DeathMonkey

I don't think anyone has ever said " that song would be a hit if they had used a 421 instead of a 57 on that cab" or "gee, I was going to buy that record, but I can't stand those converters". That said, you always want to give a song it's best chance to stand out. It's not just sonics, but bringing out the best part of the artist, revealing the magic that's there that a well engineered recording does.

From Beatles on 45's to bootleg Zappa to lots of good stuff here on this board.....I have always listened to the song. Of course the music must be captured and there is magic in that too.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/song...songID=4689687

[JonCraig]

we listen to great songs that have been tracked poorly.

we listen to great songs that have been mixed poorly.

we listen to great songs that have been crushed in mastering.

we listen to great songs.

if said song happens to have been treated well in performance, tracking, mixing, and mastering, that's icing on the cake. i think we, as engineers, often fool ourselves into thinking that we matter more than we actually do.

--jon

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

i think we, as engineers, often fool ourselves into thinking that we matter more than we actually do.

--jon

That's what I wanted to hear

More people than I expected actually admit that gear is just the icing on the cake, and that the song and its arrangement matter most. Makes you wonder why Gearslutz doesnt have a songwriting/arranging forum, and why we spend more time discussing gear than anything else.

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

That's what I wanted to hear

More people than I expected actually admit that gear is just the icing on the cake, and that the song and its arrangement matter most. Makes you wonder why Gearslutz doesnt have a songwriting/arranging forum, and why we spend more time discussing gear than anything else.

Co-sign.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Makes you wonder why Gearslutz doesnt have a songwriting/arranging forum...

Songslutz.com? Actually, there is a forum over at Just Plain Folks that is more song oriented. But you can only talk about songs for so long, before you get the urge to put up some gear and record them, which brings us back here.
For songwriting, I would recommend catching a Steve Seskin seminar. He's affiliated with NSAI, WCSA, and does workshops all over the country. You can check his website for upcoming events. The guy is a good writer, but a genius teacher. Everytime I see him in that setting, the light bulb goes on, and my writing reaches another level.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Makes you wonder why Gearslutz doesnt have a songwriting/arranging forum, and why we spend more time discussing gear than anything else.

Its called ALL ABOUT THE MUSIC.

Its located in the GS basement.

[gm5k]

i think even better than this would be a StudioTechnique forum you get a lot of that on this site, no doubt. but at times ud rather not have to read through all the "should i get a preamp or a converter?!?!" threads to get to stuff thats really gonna help you as an engineer...maybe its just me

[drBill]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Just recently I dropped by my friends studio, he was in a session. The rhythm guitarist of the band he was recording with played open chords with full distortion on, wondering why his take sounded all muddy. My friend then said to him "Turn down the distortion a little bit and play power chords". His reply "What are power chords? I play the song like this all the time."

I think you just answered your own question. The above types of musicians will never have a hit without a producer/arranger tailering their sound into something that's musical and palatable. That's why record companies hire producers. And why producers in turn hire good musicians and arrangers. Oh yeah, and engineers.

[gm5k]

wow, i thought even people who had never played a guitar knew what powerchords were

[uncle duncan]

New Electronic Musician mag has an article about some guy who recorded a CD in Garageband, using nothing but a 57 and a DI, and it's been released by Columbia. I guess he didn't need no stinkin' producer. All he needed was his songs. www.arihest.com

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

New Electronic Musician mag has an article about some guy who recorded a CD in Garageband, using nothing but a 57 and a DI, and it's been released by Columbia. I guess he didn't need no stinkin' producer. All he needed was his songs. www.arihest.com

Sounds pretty sweet too.

[gm5k]

Originally Posted by C Heat

Sounds pretty sweet too.

no kidding. im in love with the bass tracks.

all the proponents on the "the gear doesnt matter" side of things can definitely add this one to their argument

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

But you can only talk about songs for so long, before you get the urge to put up some gear and record them

See? It's that recording gene.

Applying good gear to a good song is like cleaning your windshield. The scenery looked good already.....now it sparkles.

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

New Electronic Musician mag has an article about some guy who recorded a CD in Garageband, using nothing but a 57 and a DI, and it's been released by Columbia. I guess he didn't need no stinkin' producer. All he needed was his songs. www.arihest.com

Yeah, but Columbia is notorious for this kinda stuff.... and look where they're now

They did the same with their band "Crossfade", who recorded their debut album in their garage. And while I am all for DIY, I think when it comes to a friggin major label album, you should still go the old-fashioned route and recorded in a real studio with an experienced engineer and producer.

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by drBill

I think you just answered your own question. The above types of musicians will never have a hit without a producer/arranger tailering their sound into something that's musical and palatable. That's why record companies hire producers. And why producers in turn hire good musicians and arrangers. Oh yeah, and engineers.

But that's laziness, isnt it? Personally, I dont think figuring out how to arrange/produce (your own) songs is all that hard. Just listen to the records of your favorite artists. Pay attention to how they structure and arrange their son