WE've heard great snare secrets. How about TOM secrets?

[Sizzleboy]

Originally Posted by Protools Guy

Please share your secrets to great sounding toms. Toms are the hardest part of getting a great sounding kit for me. I use mute automation to mute them when their not being played, but when they are played, sometimes the cymbals cut through due to the top end boost. How do you guys do it?
Thanks for your help...

This may be a little convoluted, but we have been using pads for the toms (real kick, snare, cymbals) and triggering samples in BFD (recording only the close mic output), then we reamp the toms out a couple floor wedges into the drum room mic.

I feel so....digital

[The dman]

I use mute automation to mute them when their not being played, but when they are played, sometimes the cymbals cut through due to the top end boost. How do you guys do it?
Thanks for your help...

Good topic

I'm having the same problem with some drums today. In one particular song when I bring up the tom hits the cymbals are too loud. I don't usually mute the toms but usually keep the faders at about 25% and then bring them up with the tom hits. Ideas welcome

[BlueRadio]

This might be a little "duh," but...

When the bleed isn't too bad, I tend to get some great results using a gate in Cubase 4.

This depends on how the toms are played though...if the drummer is doing a fill every so often, I find that a fast attack / slower release gate works just fine when paired with a subtle reverb.

However, if the verse consists of "jungle beat" toms, and the chorus is crash/kick/snare, I will often manually remove the tom bleed from the chorus...fade in, fade out....this is the beauty of the digital domain my friend.

[BlueRadio]

Now...as far as the "sound" of the toms themselves...


1. This is of the UTMOST importance. I cannot stress enough. If you don't know how...you are screwed.

***Learn to tune toms***

Hell, drums in general. Learn how to tune those toms to sound even, boomy, and smooth.

Then, learn WHERE and WHEN to mute the toms, as well as the materials used to mute them. I personally use little squares of duct tape, VERY strategically placed around the edges of the toms.

I feel that a good tom sound comes from this formula:

Good tuning + wise dampening + correct head choice + hit them solid during the song.

Past that, throw up your favorite tom mic...421, e604, c414, whatever...through a fast solid state mic pre. I don't feel the need to mess around with 2 tom mics...one on top will do.

[drummerboy1533]

Keep the cymbals up higher to avoid bleeding into toms and try placing overhead mics as "underheads"-out in front of the kit between toms and cymbals(below cymbal level).Use appropriate cymbals:smaller fast crashes,etc.Yeah-I'm a drummer...

[warhead]

CAD M179 microphones have made the biggest difference in tom recording for me. Set to hypercardioid with the pad engaged, they are the easiest placement I could want and deliver a depth that is incredible.

Using even sizings delivers a more sensible tuning range, a 12" / 13" rack tom combo just sucks because you can't separate their tunings enough.

War

[Flymax]

TUNING!
the longer I'm in this line of work the more obvious it becomes that recording great sounds makes my job a lot easier....

[Robearto4]

Originally Posted by BlueRadio

Now...as far as the "sound" of the toms themselves...


1. This is of the UTMOST importance. I cannot stress enough. If you don't know how...you are screwed.

***Learn to tune toms***

Hell, drums in general. Learn how to tune those toms to sound even, boomy, and smooth.

Then, learn WHERE and WHEN to mute the toms, as well as the materials used to mute them. I personally use little squares of duct tape, VERY strategically placed around the edges of the toms.

I feel that a good tom sound comes from this formula:

Good tuning + wise dampening + correct head choice + hit them solid during the song.

Past that, throw up your favorite tom mic...421, e604, c414, whatever...through a fast solid state mic pre. I don't feel the need to mess around with 2 tom mics...one on top will do.

+one billion for tuning.

[nerogtr]

I need to get my hands on a kit just to mess with and practice tuning for a day (or a few). Most of the drummers I've recorded don't know a thing about how to tune their kit....and unfortunately neither do I.

[dontfearthringo]

Ambassador (or comparable single ply head) top and bottom (if you're recording an especially heavy hitter, you can use Emperors, though you're going to get a brighter attack and warmer tone if you can use the Ambassadors).

I like coated tops and clear bottoms. The coating provides a very slight tone dampening effect, keeping overtones to a minimum if the heads are properly tuned.

You want to have the resonant head tuned a little tighter than the batter head. You could do a lot worse than watching this video of John Bonham's drum tech talking about tuning Bonzo's kit for the studio. You'll notice that Bonham used Emperors in the studio. Chances are that if you're recording 90% of the drummers in the world, they're not going to hit them hard enough to dent an Ambassador head to the point that it's unrecordable in one session.

After that, I will let the experts take over and talk about mics and pres, though I can tell you that the studio where I am learning the craft, we used the Audix D2 on the rack toms, D4 on the floor tom or a Sennheiser 421, although last weekend we discovered that the D2 has much better refusal than the 421 on a kit that had a snare in-line with the axis if the 421 and a cymbal super close to the mic.

I think usually go into the Shadow Hills mic pre... it's been a long day, though... not positive about that.

Tuning is a craft- you want all the tension rods on each head to have the same pitch. This can be immensely frustrating if you're not used to, because it's like trying to tune the strings on a guitar with a floating bridge- the tension on each rod changes the head tension for each of the rest of the lugs. It's nominal, but it's enough to necessitate going back and retuning each lug until they're all right. Be patient, and something that will make this job much easier is if you do some basic maintenance on your studio kit- use lug lube to make the tension rods operate easily and precisely and also lube the bearing edge of the head. This is like lubing the nut on a guitar so that the strings pass easily through the opening when tuning. Same principle.

These folks sell a product especially for this purpose. Heads bind up slightly at the spot where they are under the most tension, and I have spent ten minutes tuning a drum, only to push down on the center of the drum and have the whole thing drop out of tune again.

Oh, the way to find that pitch of each lug is to lightly place your finger in the center of the drum and tap the head just next to each lug. If you're placing your finger in the center of the drum and barely touching it, you'll create a harmonic tone, much like lightly muting a guitar string at the 12th fret. You can go around the inside of the circumference of the drum head listening to the pitches of the harmonics. If it's sharp, loosen the tension rod, if it's flat, tighten it.

I know this seems like arcana, but it becomes second nature the more you do it, and you should do it every time you record drums.

PM me if you have questions!

[Harley-OIART]

Maybe this is useful...

Assuming your Toms are Tuned very well, and they are in a great sounding room :

Sennheiser MD421 on Batter Head (Close to skin)
AKG C-414B-ULS on Resonant Head (6 Inches or Less, Cardiod | WideCardiod | SuperCardiod)

Really of course it depends on many factors... But I've seen this work great in a few different sessions. Modern Rock Bands were the source.

Anyways...

Maybe 'Moongel' could be a secret for toms?

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by Robearto4

+one billion for tuning.

+on billion and 1 for tuning.

I like thin clear heads... heads that sound TOO resonant in the room tend to jump out through the mics in a nice way...

I get great results with a 421 at a fists distance from the tom pointing at the middle of the tom and towards the snare...

[bloodsuga]

Tune them well. I use coated skins on top and bottom ( 2 ply on top, 1 ply on bottom). My advice is not to ever try an damper them. If you are not happy with the resonates, tune the bottom head higher and it will control the decay of the drum. I never close mic my my toms, I use overheads to pick them up. It may involve a lot more in the process of mixing but I try to go for a more natural drum sound. It all depends on what you are recording however. Micing them top and bottom can sound great if your going for that " perfect" drum sound.

If you'd like an example of this technique check out this youtube video with danny carey the drummer from tool. None of his toms have mics on them yet listen to how full and powerful they sound. If you've got a good player and well tuned toms i think it provides the most "real" drum sound. Drummers should always play in a way that they " mix" them while their playing, accenting things correctly and not just banging the hell out of everything in the same manner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRR9iHdG__4

Plus i'm with danny, having mics all around you when trying to play drums in the studio makes me a bit closterphobic.

[cortisol]

Placement is the key to getting the cymbals out of your tom mics. Place them both for sound and aim the nulls at the offending cymbals.

Tuning the batter head for pitch then match that pitch with the resonant head then fine tune the pitch by playing with the tuning of the resonant head.

For instance I had to tune a 14inch mounted tom to have the lowest pitch it could have by tuning the batterhead for both pitch and responsiveness under the stick and then tuning the resonating head as low as it would go to get it to sound low pitch enough to be as a floor tom. Sounded great!

I don't dampen the heads either! No need to if they're tuned with the right heads on 'em.

Evans coated G2's are nice on the batter head. They are a 2 ply head but those plies a thin. This head slightly cuts down on the resonance and yet keeps it natural and toneful. Senn 421's are wonderful tom mics, I love 'em.

Clean up the tom tracks either by editing or using a gate if the gate isn't over powered by the pick up of the stuff you wanna keep.

Sometimes the drummer will set up with low cymbals in the worst position for recording. Such pussy drummer will never sound like Dave Grohl.

Peace,
cortisol

[Jay Kahrs]

Yeah, heads & tuning is at least half of the battle in getting great tom sounds. Several years back I took a month's worth of drum lessons where the only thing we went over was tuning and how to pick & properly seat a drum head...well worth the time!

Having new heads makes the job easy!

Mic placement, and then probably choice of microphone is next. I usually start with the mics about 2" over the toms, either aimed right inside the rim and straight down, or towards the strike point if more attack & cut is needed. Using 421's is kinda standard, nice tone...lots of leakage with the wide pattern & rather hard to place. I like condensers like 414 TLII's, MC012's, KM84's...those new side address AT mics were slammin' the one time I've used them...but really, even an SM57 works if the drum sounds good to start with!

After that...check the polarity (phase!) of each tom against the overheads in one speaker mono. Whichever position seems louder & fuller is the way to go.

From there I'll usually EQ them a bit or a lot, depending on the type of music and whatever other factors. Dumping or otherwise controlling the low-mids..the realitive 'size' of the toms around 200-500Hz is paramount. Sometimes I'll add some attack in the high-mid region, say 1k5 to about 5kHz if that's needed, maybe low-pass 'em if the cymbals are a problem...but most of the time I have the drummer raise his brass away from the toms.

I never gate to tape, rarely at all unless it's something 'heavy' and the ring/leakage sounds bad...but if I do gate it's always in mix or at least on the monitor side of things.

Ok...one last one...if I need to dampen the ring a bit I'll pull the top head off and drop a few cotton balls inside the drum so they naturally muffle rather then going to Moongel or tape.

[jhg]

Howdy,

I've been working mixing a project with ass-tuned and mic'ed toms(I wish I had been involved tracking, mix so much easier) I've been using the OH to get a good image, gating the tom mics as much as possible; one drum bus somewhat squashed(w/o kik), another bus without compression with all elements, one with toms , squashed the hell out of it. The toms poked out enough to give the drum track some definition, in those brief periods.

It would be great to track these things, but they're thousands of kilometers away; smashing them down and bringing them up parallel like has worked quite well for me.

But of course, the mileage will vary.

Regards,

jhg

[Nu-tra]

I never really gate the toms. I used to listen to the drums as individual parts instead of a whole kit and that drove me nut and it led to a lifeless drum mix. I kinda started using hypercardiod mics on the toms tops and bottoms and I get a sick tone.

[thethrillfactor]

A little subharmonic sub synth on the racktoms and a more on the floor toms to give the bottomn sustain on a subwoofer.

[tsd]

im asuming your using a DAW... trying to set gates is crazy, just cut the spill out! leave the tom ringing until the next snare beat, with a nice fade. floor toms may need more ring...

it only takes about 5 mins to go thru a song.

[Protools Guy]

I'm with you guys on the tuning 100%. What I'm having a hard time with is the cymbal leakage.

Any other suggestions?

Produceher/Kenny? Your toms sound great. Care to chime in?

Thanks everybody!

[BlueRadio]

Originally Posted by bloodsuga

My advice is not to ever try an damper them. If you are not happy with the resonates, tune the bottom head higher and it will control the decay of the drum. I never close mic my my toms, I use overheads to pick them up.

Two things:


1. I can appreciate your approach of "tune tune tune..." However, when you stick a mic right on that head, there are inherent resonances in the drum that, often times, only cloud the purity of the drum...regardless of the tuning.

2. Many bands will look at you like you are #%&*ing crazy if you say "yeah, no tom mics." The sad truth is, for rock, pop, country, ect...putting mics on the toms is pretty necessary.

But all the same, I really dig your philosophy

[d. gauss]

how about tom secrets?

even though he just married katie holmes, i think tom cruise might be in the closet...

[axtrak]

+on billion and 1 for tuning. ;-)

A good drummer should have a balance between all drums and cymbals...

I always record samples of the whole kit i'm tracking. If i need to trigger something i can use samples from the same kit ( and player)

[Flymax]

Originally Posted by axtrak

+on billion and 1 for tuning. ;-)

A good drummer should have a balance between all drums and cymbals...

I always record samples of the whole kit i'm tracking. If i need to trigger something i can use samples from the same kit ( and player)

NICE

[warhead]

Originally Posted by d. gauss

how about tom secrets?

even though he just married katie holmes, i think tom cruise might be in the closet...

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[slaves666]

I always track individual hits at the end of a session, of every piece of the kit, in case I need to receate something.....I almost always make a drumagog file for the toms, that way I have no cymbal bleed, and I can get the loud. Also, phasing issues are o.k. due to the fact that they are the same toms hear in the OH and Room mics.

[dbbubba]

Tuning...YES!
Proper sounding heads... yes (they don't have to be Ambassodors, just good sounding)
Good mic w/proper positioning... yes
"Gate" them in your DAW with the tail ramping down where it dissappears just as the next snare hit falls.
The player playing them correctly... goes without saying, but read on!

All of these are things that will make you toms sound good or at least improve their sound.

Here's my trick when I am producing and can get this kind of control over what the drummer is doing/using.
FIRST: I only want the drumer to use only TWO (or possibly three) toms.
A rack and a floor.
It helps if they are on snare type stands, but it is hard to get the floor tom low enough.
SECONG: I want smaller sized toms. A 12" and a 14" work very good. They can be tuned deep enough and are usually easier to tune for nice recording tone.
If the song REALLY requires three toms (and few really do) then a 12". 14" and 16" floor toms will work. Anything larger than a 16" (18") is rediculous because VERY FEW playback systems will reproduce the low end. Yeah, you can put it up on your big monitors in the soffit and impress people. You can add the sub-harmonic synth, but on 99% of the systems that your recording will be played on they are just too low to be heard.

Another reason that I only want two toms is that is easier to mic w/o bleed.
If I have three toms (two racks) I'll often split them with one mic (a 421 works.)
There is less cymbal bleed and they are picked up just fine. I found this by accient in a compromised situation.

A further reason is that it keeps the drummer from playeing too many tom fills!
It keeps him concentrated on the kick/snare/hat or ride and THE GROOVE!
I just don't need the Hawaii 5-0 intro tom fills very often.

I am lucky because almost every time I record drums I have this type of control.
Even if I was recording some pikers I would STRONGLY suggest this set-up.
The 18" floor tom is just NOT going to happen, period. Don't even let them set it up!

I was recently re-visiting some tapes from a session I did in 1992 of a pretty strong sounding and well recorded metal group. The drummer had a million pieces to his kit and he seemed to need them all, so I mic'd up everything accordingly. After spending hours I recall that ONE cymbal would ruin the sound of the whole kit's balance. So as soon as I listened to the track almost fifteen years later I was bugged by that damn cymbal! It should have been moved or done away with. The drum sound is great EXCEPT for when he hits that one cymbal!

I'll be honest... I have been bugged for years by people who recorded each tom on a track (especially on multitrack.) Trying EQ or treat them one at a time in mix is futile. You have to get them recorded correctly on the way in.
Toms just eat up so much track space for what they contribute to a song. I'm not saying that they need to be eliminated, but you have to step back and really look at how few times they are actually used in a particular cut. I almost never devote more than two tracks for toms because if I have more than two I will pan them across a stereo pair.

As I have dealt with toms over the years I have started to think of the individual mics as "spot mics" which are really there to add focus to the sound picked up by the OHs.

[Protools Guy]

Good stuff guys. Thanks. Anyone else?

[The dman]

Another reason that I only want two toms is that is easier to mic w/o bleed.
If I have three toms (two racks) I'll often split them with one mic (a 421 works.)
There is less cymbal bleed and they are picked up just fine. I found this by accient in a compromised situation.

A further reason is that it keeps the drummer from playeing too many tom fills!
It keeps him concentrated on the kick/snare/hat or ride and THE GROOVE!
I just don't need the Hawaii 5-0 intro tom fills very often.

I hear you on that. I just recorded a bunch of songs with my drummer and the first thing I did was take his 4th tom. The music we were recording didn't need 4 and why have more shit humming and moaning

I also mic the 2 rack toms with 1 mic and 1 on the floor but I find on some songs I have to have the drummer adjust his tom hits. EX. Drummer hits 4 eighth notes, 2 on the 1st rack tom and 2 on the 2nd rack tom. The problem is that sometimes I want the first 2 hits on the left and the second two hits on the right and with the 1 mic on the racks it doesn't happen. So in that instance I try to have the drummer be aware of that and use the rack and the floor.