Pres: Variety vs. Uniformity

[AlexLakis]

The crux of this thread was kinda sparked by the last Shadow Hills thread...I can be annoyed with those "budget/choices" threads too, but that's not really the point of this thread (my mind is pretty much made up all ready.) This thread involves a little more, so bear with me...

Well, I'm happy to say that business has been picking up, and after my earnings from last year, and some funding from investors (some family sold some land in Greece,) I've alotted about 5 grand in my personal studio budget for preamp upgrades.

I've chosen the following:

API 3124
Chandler TG-2
Vintech 273

These choices are based on personal preference. I've logged a lot of hours with these pres; I know what they're capable of and I know what I like them on.

I've also got 9 spaces left to work with in an OSA rack, so I was planning on scoring a couple of Shadow Hills Mono Gamas eventually. I haven't worked with the Shadow Hills, but I've heard them before and have been impressed (also samples and reviews from fellow Gearslutz!)

However, a concept inherent in my mixes has steered me towards musings of a Gama 8.

I'm happy with the quality of my mixes, the sounds I'm getting, etc. However, I find that most other engineers can generally (and more effortlessly) get a raw mix to sound more..."uniform." You know what I'm talking about...THE CONSOLE SOUND. To my ears, a lot of times, this can result in a "flatter" and almost "duller" sound, but can sound more "musical" and "synergetic" (is that a word?) This is the concept I'd like to discuss.

Now, another important thing to mention is mastering. After mastering, my mixes definately sound more "uniform" and "musical." So, I guess in the end, it's not a big deal...It has me thinking, tho...

So, here's where the audience involvement comes in. I'm interested to see how many people would choose the API+Chandler+Vintech (or some other similarly variatic combo) over the Gama 8 (or some other 8 channel pre or console, disregarding the console's features and just focusing on the pres) based upon "variety vs. uniformity." How important are these concepts to you guys? I know I'm analyzing this a little deeper than I need to, but I think it'd make for an interesting discussion. Whadaya say?

Maybe I'll include a poll with the thread, yup I think I will...I know the poll ain't perfect, but bear with me.

[jdjustice]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

So, here's where the audience involvement comes in. I'm interested to see how many people would choose the API+Chandler+Vintech (or some other similarly variatic combo) over the Gama 8 (or some other 8 channel pre or console, disregarding the console's features and just focusing on the pres) based upon "variety vs. uniformity." How important are these concepts to you guys? I know I'm analyzing this a little deeper than I need to, but I think it'd make for an interesting discussion. Whadaya say?

i think it depends on whether you are producing music for yourself and you know what sonic flavours you want.
if you are producing/engineering music for others, it is definitely good to have a variety of preamps available of different colours.
as a professional engineer (which i am not) i would want to have something Neve-ish, API-ish, and possibly EMI-ish around (which you have covered with the API/Chandler/Vintech triad).
but as a musician and performer i find it's best to pick the preamp flavour that i most prefer and stick with that.
i like the idea of producing a whole record using just one preamp model.

so i voted for, '8 channels of the same'.......FWIW...



cheers,
~j.d.

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by jdjustice

i think it depends on whether you are producing music for yourself and you know what sonic flavours you want.
if you are producing/engineering music for others, it is definitely good to have a variety of preamps available of different colours.
as a professional engineer (which i am not) i would want to have something Neve-ish, API-ish, and possibly EMI-ish around (which you have covered with the API/Chandler/Vintech triad).
but as a musician and performer i find it's best to pick the preamp flavour that i most prefer and stick with that.
i like the idea of producing a whole record using just one preamp model.

so i voted for, '8 channels of the same'.......FWIW...



cheers,
~j.d.

Cool, thanks for your input, J.D.! I know it's kind of a "depends" kinda poll/thread, but I appreciate the stretch!

As a professional engineer (which I am,) I like to have the variety too. However, there is something to be said for a recording that has "a sound" as a whole. This final "sound" can come at the mastering stage to an extent, but I'm wondering how important it is to other engineers that this come during the mixing stage as well, and how many engineers would rather have all the same pres, and get their different sounds more from mic choice and the like. Obviously, the source sounds, room, mic choice, etc. are factors in both camps, but I guess we're discussing "to what extent" in that respect.

[mpapatonis]

Alex,

Hello from one Greek to another.

The argument of using the same preamps is one that has come up over the past few years. I personally do not agree. Changing the preamp is no different than changing the microphone. I don't think that many of us would record a whole record with one mic.

I find that different pres "open up" the mix by allowing different amounts of transient information and different frequency emphasis. This keeps you from having to use as much compression or EQ later. The same way that the right mic makes something sit better in the mix.

For the record, I would recommend the API 512c's over the 3124. I don't think that the 3124 sounds as good and it definitely doesn't sound like a 312. Sonic Circus had an offer where you buy any four API modules and you get a free lunchbox (that might be an API offer, I'm not sure). The TG-2 is great. If you are looking for a Neve type of sound, you might check out the Wunder pres. They are more expensive than the Vintech’s but worth every penny.

Just my opinion but I hope this helps.

[Reptil]

eeehm both?

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by mpapatonis

Alex,

Hello from one Greek to another.

The argument of using the same preamps is one that has come up over the past few years. I personally do not agree. Changing the preamp is no different than changing the microphone. I don't think that many of us would record a whole record with one mic.

I find that different pres "open up" the mix by allowing different amounts of transient information and different frequency emphasis. This keeps you from having to use as much compression or EQ later. The same way that the right mic makes something sit better in the mix.

For the record, I would recommend the API 512c's over the 3124. I don't think that the 3124 sounds as good and it definitely doesn't sound like a 312. Sonic Circus had an offer where you buy any four API modules and you get a free lunchbox (that might be an API offer, I'm not sure). The TG-2 is great. If you are looking for a Neve type of sound, you might check out the Wunder pres. They are more expensive than the Vintech’s but worth every penny.

Just my opinion but I hope this helps.

Yasou, Michael!

I'm in the same camp as you are. I worked at a console studio for a long time with no outboard gear at the start of my career. I got frusterated because I couldn't escape "that sound." I like the contrast mixing and matching pres can bring. However, it was a pretty crappy console, and I believe there is something to be said for the uniformity a good one can provide.

Interesting what you think about the 512cs, I thought they had the same guts as the 3124? I've got 9 available spaces for 500 series stuff, I certainly wouldn't mind getting the 512s as opposed to the 3124, I just thought I'd get the 3124 based on price point. I love the TG-2 as well; I haven't had experience with the Wunder, but I know I love the Vintech!

Originally Posted by Reptil

eeehm both?

Oh, you Gearslut you. How then? I'm assuming drums thru an 8 channel or console, then guitars, bass, vocals, etc. thru other varying single/dual channels?

So far, the poll is about dead even.

[mpapatonis]

I’m pretty sure that the guts of the 3124 are not quite the same but even if they are something is different. I’ve A/B’d them and IMHO the 512c’s sound better. If you have the module rack, you might consider them.

I think that the Vintech’s sound pretty good too. I mentioned the Wunder because it is a Neve type sound but cooler. It has a bigger, fatter low end and a more open top. That’s what everyone says about every pre but it really is true with the Wunder. I have some 1272’s and the A/B confirmed this IMO.

Good luck with your purchase. I’m a preamp slut for sure and I love the variety.

[mark714]

The recordings I regard as the greatest didn't have the benefit of using many different pre's. These are recordings that are at least 30, maybe even 40 or 50 years old.

That said, I'd prefer to have an assortment of gear ~ but would LOVE to have the talent in front of the mic from ealier times... Motown to Led Zep/Beatles to Sinatra... it's the talent (with some savvy engineering) that makes recordings special, not 40 channels of weird pre's.

[squeegybug]

One great clear preamp, many mics.

Steve

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

.....Oh, you Gearslut you. How then? I'm assuming drums thru an 8 channel or console, then guitars, bass, vocals, etc. thru other varying single/dual channels?....

Yep, you got it.

Originally Posted by squeegybug

One great clear preamp, many mics.

Steve

I have used the same method. (To vary on that, add to taste; one colored (bright, or deep) preamp for bass, or vocals etc. to have something stand out) It's not a rule.

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by mark714

The recordings I regard as the greatest didn't have the benefit of using many different pre's. These are recordings that are at least 30, maybe even 40 or 50 years old.

That said, I'd prefer to have an assortment of gear ~ but would LOVE to have the talent in front of the mic from ealier times... Motown to Led Zep/Beatles to Sinatra... it's the talent (with some savvy engineering) that makes recordings special, not 40 channels of weird pre's.

Indeed! The talent in front and behind the glass definately makes more of a difference than anything. I'm sure if you asked this question to those engineers who made all those great records years ago they'd say the same thing. But, I wonder what they'd pick if they had to answer the poll given the music/talent of the times we live in now?

And it's certainly dependant on the genre too! For classical, I'd definately want something like a couple of True Precision 8s, or a boatload of Graces. Clear and uniform. For rock and such, I'm not sure that'd be the way I'd like to go. I actually made a couple of rock albums using just a True Precision 8 and two 1176s. I think they turned out great, but all the tracks definately had "a sound" (or flavor, if you will) before I even touched them during mixdown that I couldn't escape if I tried (and I'm not talking about the sound of the band or the room here.)

Originally Posted by mpapatonis

I think that the Vintech’s sound pretty good too. I mentioned the Wunder because it is a Neve type sound but cooler. It has a bigger, fatter low end and a more open top. That’s what everyone says about every pre but it really is true with the Wunder. I have some 1272’s and the A/B confirmed this IMO.

That's pretty cool. I'd surely be interested in something that does "the same thing only better" for what I'm looking for. I haven't heard the Wunder, tho, so I'd have to demo it out first. It's definately in another price range. I have experience with the Vintech 473, the X73, and the X81s. I understand that the 1272, while good at what it does, is kind of the "black sheep" of the Vintech family. Have you had a chance to compare the Wunder to the X73 family (in regards to the pre and also the EQ?) The Wunder certainly looks cooler in my book! It should also be said that I don't give a crap about what "sounds like a 1073," just what sounds GOOD.

[mpapatonis]

The 1272's that I A/B'd the Wunders against are not Vintechs. They are actual Neve 1272's. I still think that the Wunder sounded better for many sources. The DI input is awsome on bass.

I have two of the PEQ1R's and they sound fantastic especially the EQ. I've not A/B the Wunder against any Vintech stuff. I don't own any Vintech but I've used it at other studios.

I heard that Wunder may be coming out with single channel units for about a grand a piece. The killer is the $300 power supply plus another $30 for the power cable to the first unit. Once you have the PSU though, it will run a boatload of units. Plus having the power out of the unit makes a difference in the sound.

[uncle duncan]

Some mics react differently, depending on what preamp they're plugged into. Dynamics can really get a kick in the a** by running them through transformers. Ribbon mics benefit from mega-gain. (Love the AEA TRP pre.) Vocal mics can have the 'eshy' problem, which can be addressed by using a darker pre. I can't imagine being stuck with only one kind of preamp. Granted, some great work has been done that way, but why limit yourself? I suppose it's a purist vs. no-boundaries type of argument, and I know which side I'd be more comfortable on.

[kats]

I can't imagine being stuck with only one kind of preamp. Granted, some great work has been done that way, but why limit yourself?

Because of workflow. Besides, when you have a goulash of pre/amps you make compromises anyhow. What if I want the API's on toms and guitars----oops not enough. So now I end up putting something on guitars that don't do it for me and start pissing around with different mics, placements, eq's.

So IE, it's nice to have a set of top notch pres that are versatile and suit your sense of musical asthetic X 16. Using 6 different pairs of preamps to mic a set of drums is nothing but a huge PITA. Coupled with the fact that your using different mics on the kit, the co-hesiveness is lacking. Especially, or more specifically on the ambient mics (OH's, room etc). I notice the biggest difference between pres in how they interact with the room acoustics. On the close mics, I could care less - it's not a natural sound to begin with.

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by mpapatonis

Changing the preamp is no different than changing the microphone. I don't think that many of us would record a whole record with one mic.

You might be surprised to find out how many of your favorite records were made almost exactly that way. Console pres used for everything, then moving a single 87 (or whatever) around the studio for all the subsequent overdubs.

AFAIK, William Wittman and Terry Manning (along with at least a couple of other highly respected engineers) have made a few 'pretty good' records working in that manner, at least...

I personally think excellent work can be done either way, and it is more a question of preference. If all of your tracks are suffering from a sonic 'sameness' you may want to investigate different sounding mic pres to 'separate' your sonics. If OTOH, you're having a lot of trouble getting tracks to 'gel' perhaps you might want to use one good all around mic pre for the bulk of your tracks.

As for my own preference, as of late I prefer to spend more time considering how to improve the actual sound at the source and capturing a great performance, as opposed to experimenting with various mic pre + mic combinations. Formerly, I used to do a whole lot of preamp shuffling.

[theblue1]

I ended up in the majority here (which hardly surprised me)... but, really, I feel like both is the best answer. I like having a board with relatively neutral pres -- and a collection of "character" pres.

I wouldn't want to try to do everything with a big set of completely neutral mics (although it might be interesting to try) and by much the same token, I think picking and choosing pres for the task at hand can help get closer to the "ideal"...

[3rd world order]

i dont like a lot of variety in mic preamps for a drumkit... you can get enough tonal variation just by using different compressors... and it's hard enough to glue the damn kit together without creating more problems thru different preamps... so i'm FLYING THE BLACK FLAG and saying only use ONE TYPE of preamp on a drum kit...

well, unless we're talking about kick drum.. which is a different animal... so use a max of TWO kinds of preamp on a drum kit.... it *IS* one instrument, remember... you wouldn't put a different preamp on each GTR string would you?

hmm... i shouldnt have said that.. i'm guessing ppl here MIGHT.

on GTRs... yeah, prolly... variety... you want different colors helping to separate those tracks.... but i'm still gonna go down with the ship as far as making the drum kit sound like one instrument...

GAME ON

[djui5]

all the same please