Real Traps Vocal Booth questions

[homestudioguy]

Well, I must say that the new Real Traps Vocal Booth is a neat looking product.

Interestingly enough, when sE came out with their Reflexion Filter I suggested to sE that they make a bigger one, primarily to use behind the vocalist along with the Reflexion Filter (although a heavy comforter or packing blankets are recommended by many).
I do have some questions for Ethan or Doug, though.

In reviewing the video on the Real Traps website I see that Doug's mouth is directly in line with the TLM 103 capsule when using the RealTraps VSB whereas in the Reflexion Filter photo his mouth is not lined up with capsule and is, in fact, above the capsule. Is this how you did the recording for the video? Could this then be where the "nasily" thing came from that you repeatedly refer to in this video in reference to the Reflexion Filter? Based on the website photos, Doug's nostrils are pointed at the capsule which may have something to do with it (other than the fact that Doug does have a nasal inflection when he speaks in all 3 tests). When I use my Reflexion Filter with my mouth pointed at the capsule I do not get a nasal sound at all so I find it quite odd that you are are getting the nasily sound you repeatedly refer to in this video.

Also based on the website video photos of the Reflexion Filter, the capsule of the TLM 103 is sitting a bit high and not centered within the unit. Is this how you recorded it as well? If so, this could have something to do with the "objectionable" room sound. When you did this "test" were you aware that the RF provides for a substantial amount of adjustability in order that the microphone can be moved about to add or subtract room ambience or to find a "sweet spot" that works for the particular mic or subject? On your website video you clearly describe the amount of room ambience heard when "testing" the Reflexion Filter specifically using the term, "objectionable". Can you please explain to me how much room ambience is or is not objectionable?

Based on the information provided in the New Products Forum where you (Ethan) announced your new product you shared that the VSB unit is built essentially using 1 inch thick 703 wrapped by burlap. Is there any type of solid membrane material in there as well? I ask this as the Reflexion Filter has an actual aluminum foil membrane as one of its 7 layers to stop reflections. I also ask this as I don't have a PhD in physics but would think that only 1 inch of 703 would still be rather porous in nature even with the extra burlap wrapping and especially when I read on the forums of folks suggesting 2/4/6 inches of 703 for baffles etc.

My next question has to do with the "corner" created by your design. I've received a lot of guff as well as good guidance from folks as my workstation desk is in a corner in my one room home studio(see my website). Primarily they tell me that corners can act as huge bass accentuators. How does your design, primarily based on a 45 degree angle and mirroring the corner of a room, stop the bass accentuation and colouration problems of corners?

My last question is: If you have applied for a Patent, has the application been published by the USPTO as yet and if so, can you share the number of the application? I'd be interested in reviewing it (my only Patent Application to date is 10/848,237).

Thanks!

[Ethan Winer]

Bob,

I see that Doug's mouth is directly in line with the TLM 103 capsule when using the RealTraps VSB whereas in the Reflexion Filter photo his mouth is not lined up with capsule and is, in fact, above the capsule. Is this how you did the recording for the video?

No, we were careful to keep Doug centered and aligned the same for both tests. We had both of those devices on and off the microphone stand a few times while we did those tests, then we put each back for the photos. The photos were done mainly so I could switch photos in the video as the audio switched, to make it clear what you're hearing each time.

Also, I was equally careful with placements and distances when I did the blocking and on-axis response tests in my own studio. I think you can see this clearly enough in the photos of those tests. That data is even better than a subjective (by ear only) test because it shows exactly what happens at each frequency.

When I use my Reflexion Filter with my mouth pointed at the capsule I do not get a nasal sound at all so I find it quite odd that you are are getting the nasily sound you repeatedly refer to in this video.

Have you compared with and without the SE filter? We didn't immediately notice the change in quality either until we played the clips side by side.

On your website video you clearly describe the amount of room ambience heard when "testing" the Reflexion Filter specifically using the term, "objectionable". Can you please explain to me how much room ambience is or is not objectionable?

It's not for me to say how much is objectionable to you, but this is why when I assembled the audio clips I switched back and forth quickly, and also used hand claps in addition to speech.

Is there any type of solid membrane material in there as well?

Yes, though in this case the "standard" RealTraps membrane we use is in the rear to increase sound blocking, versus on the front as we do for our bass trap products.

I've received a lot of guff as well as good guidance from folks as my workstation desk is in a corner in my one room home studio(see my website). Primarily they tell me that corners can act as huge bass accentuators. How does your design, primarily based on a 45 degree angle and mirroring the corner of a room, stop the bass accentuation and colouration problems of corners?

That doesn't really apply here. You are correct that monitoring while facing into a corner is not a great setup. But our Portable Vocal Booth is meant mainly to control and absorb voice frequencies. So in this case our goal was just to make the created environment as dead as possible.

If you have applied for a Patent

I can't imagine there's anything patentable in such a simple device!

--Ethan

[James_SE]

Hi all,

James of sE Electronics here. I've been alerted to a couple of companies on the forums piggy-backing the success of our patented Reflexion Filter with simple designs that mimic the 'Portable Vocal Booth' item we launched in Jan 2006

I'd like to straighten out a few points and misconceptions aired by our competitors (and some end users) both on this forum and on their web sites.

It's very easy for other manufacturers to make claims against our product and I need to redress this as we have a wealth or test reports, reviews and sales history as well as many high profile endorsees.

1. The SE Reflexion Filter was the first on the market, and since we started shipping in June 06 we've sold over 10,000 worldwide with exceptional customer feedback. We have not had a single unit returned because a customer was dissatisfied with the results, and those customers range from the BBC to Stevie Wonder and many other audio luminaries.
2. The RF has had great reviews in all the ProAudio mags (none of which, by the way, found any evidence of coloration), we've won PAR 2007 Excellence Award, Electronic Musician Editors Choice and Audio Media Gear of the Year awards for best products of 2006/7.
3. We have independant test reports from the Tongji University Audio Lab in Shanghai which are on the sE site, and reports which corroborate this from one of the worlds leading independent acoustic test centres in Germany, the Akusikburo – Kramer and Stegmaier Berlin. This data and 16 page test report is being translated into English before we put it on the web… it should be up in its entirety in about 4 weeks, but in essence it shows that there is extremely low colouration across the standard 20Hz to 20KHz. It has been suggested on a competitors site (even using video 'evidence') that the RF causes coloration and leaves significant levels of room ambience untreated. On this video the Reflexion Filter is set up correctly with the mic, but the performer is clearly talking over the top of the RF and a good 6-8 inches over the top of the mic, whereas in testing their own product the mic-mouth position is entirely optimal. Not surprising then that the results for the RF are 'seen and heard to be' ineffective at removing room ambience and 'nasal' in coloration. This is clearly NOT what all the independent tests and reviews demonstrate. As a result of this test bias we have decided to put the competitors through the same test centres over the coming months and publish proper independent data to square that particular issue.
4. The RF design is complicated… we launched the idea of the product at NAMM in 2005 as a prototype (some pictures of which you can still find kicking around the web), and finally shipped in quantity at the beginning of June 06 after many, MANY revisions to perfect a product that others seem to think they can emulate in a few weeks. I've outlined some of the problems we encountered along the way below to illustrate why it's not just a simple case of placing some acoustic absorption material on a mounting mechanism behind the mic…


1. The design needs first to be compact. There is no point designing a portable booth if it's not portable! It still needs to work though and that's the difficult bit. Anyone can add bulk or sheer size to make something absorb more and more, but if it's big and unwieldy it makes it difficult to mount, creates problems for micing in tight spaces, or where multiple sources are being treated.
2. It needs to absorb as much audio energy as possible, but it has to do this evenly across the frequency spectrum (20Hz to 20KHz). This means that it must both absorb evenly, and reflect evenly (because no matter how good, any product like this still reflects energy as well as allowing energy to pass through it or be absorbed). This is extremely difficult to acheiev, and it took us many revisions, and literally 100's of materials tests to come up with the optimum solution. We also manufacture Glass Fiber based acoustic panels and believe me if we could acheived results even close to what we have with the RF with these it would have saved us amount of time and money.
3. We created a multilayered product to deal with absorbing most efficiently with a compact product. Layers of Aluminium foil, wool, patented polyester acoustic fibreboard with extremely high absorption co-efficients (which, contrary to what you'll find on some manufacturers sites, are all but meaningless unless expressed as a fraction of 1 because there are so many variables that can be used otherwise to 'massage' figures to make the numbers look bigger and better). It is much more effective per unit area than a simple foam or fibreglass board.
4. The shape is critical… it must be roughly semicircular, but comprise a number of flat surfaces (for 2 reasons). If the product is box or 'V' shaped and anything approaching 90 degree angles are created, then it forms one of the worst possible acoustic problems in the form of a bass well. Think about treating a room, the worst problem is generally bass accumulation in 90 degree corners. If you create a trap behind a mic with such an angle, it accentuates bass, and then the energy from these bass frequencies amplifies higher harmonics, creating a range of peaks and troughs in the reflected energy and therefore colouring the recording substantially. If you want to check out this effect for yourself (not that you don't already know it!) simply sing a low bass note and move your direction of projection in and out of a corner in your room and see what happens. You can hear it clear as day without any test equipment. Similarly if you use a perfect semi circle then you magnify all reflected frequencies bag to the capsule of the mic… not a good move either. You have to have that semicircle as a base though or you cannot effectively remove the problem of bass accentuation (not easily anyway), so after much testing we found the perfect combination was a series of smaller flat angles forming a semi circle. This randomises the reflections as much as possible without starting to focus them back to the centre.
5. Mounting is also important (though not as critical as the above). If you want to use the 'booth' for guitars, drums etc etc, you have to be able to angle it easily on a boom stand… that's where portability and mounting design become key. The RF speaks for itself on that front, being less than a foot wide and tall, with a continuously variable hinge assembly which clamps onto any mic or drum stand in seconds.

I would encourage people to check out our web site..

http://www.seelectronics.com/rf.html

..and to use our free loan service worldwide to A/B the Reflexion Filter against other products.


Thanks for reading,



James Young
MD
sE Electronics

[Etnier]

The thing that I don't get about either of these products is how they seem to work against the proper functioning of cardioid mics, so often used in these applications.

A cardioid depends on a free field behind it: this unwanted sound is combined with the 'direct' sound out-of-phase so as to create the cardioid pickup pattern. Maintaining even frequency response in the cardioid pattern is critical: devices which mess with the sound at the back of the mic would seem to throw this time-honored system seriously out of whack.

Comments?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Etnier

A cardioid depends on a free field behind it: this unwanted sound is combined with the 'direct' sound out-of-phase so as to create the cardioid pickup pattern. Maintaining even frequency response in the cardioid pattern is critical: devices which mess with the sound at the back of the mic would seem to throw this time-honored system seriously out of whack.

There's nothing wrong technically with your statements, and I'll be the first to agree that products like our PVB are a compromise. The best way to capture a well recorded vocal is to record in a room that's been treated properly! Unfortunately, this is not an option for many people. So in that case the PVB can help a lot. There's a set of audio and video demos on our site, so you can hear for yourself how much improved the sound is with the PVB. But if you have a well-treated room, that's even better.

--Ethan

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by James_SE

Hi all,

<snip>

Thanks for reading,
James Young
MD
sE Electronics

James,

didn't you say SE's gonna put up some comparison charts/graphs on the website? is that gonna happen?

even the website says "Mid-March"... it's May already.

[fooman]

I purchased the PVB and have done a few vocal sessions and other little tracking sessions with it (shaker, tambourine, guitar cab micing).

I can say it does what I needed it to do. It dried out the room, and allowed me greater seperation from my less-than-stellar environment. I purchased this so I could still get a good vocal while gearing up for proper room treatment.

I don't regret this purchase at all.