Bass Direct/Screw the speaker?

[SoundUniverse]

I'm curious about how some of you like to record bass when using a direct signal and mic'd cabinet when using "your" favorite pre (UA610/M-5/etc.). Are you using a splitter from the bass or................?

Do many of you mic a speaker anymore?

Your method is appreciated!!!!!!!!!

[Engine Room]

direct-->Tube Tech-->1176
or
Sans-amp--->Tube Tech-->1176


it really depends on the mood we're creating.

Sometimes it's Sans-amp-->Eureka-->tape

We really dig the Sans-amp though.

Quite freakin' brilliant!

We do a lot of background trash, so we try to keep the bass out of the room, and let the musicians play together without all of the bleed.

If we feel a more "real" sound is needed, we either Re-amp it, or just do a dub with a cabinet.

[ecsound]

well, while i don't have an extensive collection of pre's to choose from, i am fortunate enough to own a great bass (warwick corvette st./mec active/passive pickups). the thing sounds great no matter what it goes through, but really shines through my trident 4t.

depends on the sound you want, though. i really like a clean tight sound, which direct is perfect for. if you're going for more life, or to capture the groove of the player, a mic'd bass amp will obviously help.

i like to do both sometimes though, always keep your options open.

and remember the old GS addage... "if you have the tracks availablel, why not?!"

[SoundUniverse]

Hey, thanks for the responses and help. I should try and explain my question better. If I want to record bass direct say, using my 610 and I want to record the speaker as well. Would it be best to use a splitter from the guitar or direct out of the bass amp to the 610 or ..........?

[ntimkovich]

wouldn't it depend on the direct box you wanted to use?

for instance, if you go with a splitter, than you're reproducing two separate high impedance signals. you can route one into your amp's preamp/speaker combination, and the other into a direct box or an instrument preamp or whatever. the point here is that you can choose the chains completely independently.

if you use the amp's direct out, then you are using the amp's DI circuitry instead of a separate DI.

for instance, i have a SWR bass amp that has a DI out. if i want to record both mic/speaker combination AND direct, then i can either use the amp's DI out, or I can put something in front of the amp's preamp and split it there. in my case, i plug my bass into my Sansamp, run the XLR direct out into my board's preamp, then run the parallel output into my SWR's preamp and put a mic in front of the cabinet. the sansamp is nice too because i can either use it as a simple DI/splitter box, or enable the amp simulation and get a tubey-sound on one channel and my SWR's solid state sound on the other. gives me something to work with :)

these are just my thoughts.

cheers!
nick

[SoundUniverse]

Sounds like I need to buy a decent splitter, because that sounds like the best option for me. Recommendations? or should I buy a "REAMP" device and take a parrallel line out from the 610 out of my patch bay?

[Mike Caffrey]

I don't really like the 610 becuase I find it too distorted and wooly sounding, but for bass I think that can be perfect.

The way I'd use it if I still had one is to plug in to a Sans Amp and then run that into the 610. I usually set both to be a little fuzzy. so you get a woofy amp sound. Then I'd take the parallel out of the Sans Amp and connect that to another DI and treat that as a regular DI. From there I usually send both to a FATSO with the transformer in or to the Culture Vultre, most often on P2. I record them to two tracks like I would with an actual amp and a DI. The difference is that there are no phase issues at all, like there are when using an amp and DI.

[SoundUniverse]

hmmm "SansAmp" keeps coming up. What are it's many uses? Is it that cool?

[ntimkovich]

everyone seems to like it a lot. here are the specs:

http://www.tech21nyc.com/bassdriver.html

connections are input, parallel output, XLR output, 1/4" output. it's got some amp modelling skills. you can also run it off phantom power, i think, although i've never done it.

as a bass player myself, it's also a great backup for gigs. if my amp blows, i can plug it into the PA and get decent tones.

for the price, it's a no brainer in my opinion. a lot of other people's opinions, too.

cheers!
nick

[macr0w]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Fender Jazz+API 512c+FATSO+Apogee+

[kittonian]

Grab a Chandler TG2 and try recording the bass direct through the DI with the 300 button engaged. Turn the gain up to about 45 and the output up to around 7'ish. Awesome sound.

[SoundUniverse]

hmmm......I have a TG-2 and have never even thought to give it a try as direct for bass! I don't have the load button on mine (although it's at Chandler today, so I could inquire about having that added!)

[octatonic]

A DI Bass has, perhaps unsurprisingly, more of a studio tone to it.
If that is what you are looking for then great.

I find it difficult to be satisfied with a DI bass when I am trying to get a great live band feel- so it is time to pull out the mics.

My DI path is:

Vipre - Distressor - Converter : for a crunchy sound

or

Vipre - Summit DCL200 - Converter - for a smoother sound.

[seaneldon]

an excellent bass goes to an excellent di, with the output going to a capable mic pre, and the thru going to an excellent amp which i mic and print. if i can't get a great sound in 2 minutes, it's the player or the bass who are wrong for the song. not me.

[SoundUniverse]

The only bass I love the sound of and get to record is Fender Jazz. It's just a matter of the live speaker sound or not. I usually just do the direct thing for practicallity and I like the sound of the direct through my LA610 (a bit nicer voicing than the 2-610 I used to have) and then slapping a bit of Massy TapeHead on it, but I was just thinking about getting the speaker sound in there.

Good point about the alignment factor Mike!

[pan60]

i love the sound of a mic'ed B-15
you my want to take a look at the REDDI !

[(DC)]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

an excellent bass goes to an excellent di, with the output going to a capable mic pre, and the thru going to an excellent amp which i mic and print. if i can't get a great sound in 2 minutes, it's the player or the bass who are wrong for the song. not me.

Give it five... a good idea might come to you

[Unclenny]

'69 Gibson EB3>Voodoo Labs Selector>>BBE DI (w/ Sonic Maximizer chip)>Trident 4T.
Also from the selector to an Ampeg with a 57.

Best of both worlds.

[mpapatonis]

The quality of the DI has a lot to do with it. It doesn't hurt to have some options (countryman, GT Brick-has tube stage, etc., the Sans Amp is cool too). I usually take the bass to a quality DI and then take the parallel output to an amp or an amp modeler (Line 6, etc.) and then record them both.

The DI into a quality pre helps too. I like the Neve 1272 on bass although I recently bought a couple of Wunder PEQ1's and they sound even better, plus they have EQ. I have used the 610B on bass and it can be interesting but to me it's a looser sound than the Neve or the Wunder. They seem to keep the bass full but tight. Depends on what you are after of course.

Anyway, at that point you have a lot of options. You can use the DI recording, the bass cab with mic/amp model or you can run the DI track through modeling software during the mix. I've had good luck with Amplitube on bass.

I find that you can't compress or EQ the sound into being. It's either there or it's not (tone is in the player's hands). Compression and EQ can make improvements but they never fix the problem. Although software modeling has helped some poor tones in the past.

One last thing. For me the amped tone often seems a little too muddy in the mix. I guess that I just like the cleaner, tighter DI sound (again depends on what you're after). If I need more low end from the DI track, I just run it through a modeler or use Maxbass or something similar.

That's my 2 cents. Hope this helps.

[Daedalus77]

Start with a good American P- or J-bass (was it Fletcher who said, famously, Bass = Four strings and "Fender" on the headstock?). Yes.

So...

Bass --> Great River (or API) --> MC77 --> converters.

My two cents.

[Suspects]

We're using the Little Labs PCP Instrument Distro for splitting bass (and guitar for that matter)

Bass --> PCP --> Output A (Direct) -->UA6176 (Hi-z input)
--> Output B (miced amp) --> Ampeg SVT Classic or SWR Redhead

With multiple mics on the amp and the direct signal all on separate tracks, you get lots of options to choose from.The PCP will also output a clean signal at the same time for reamping if you want to go that route. The Little Labs is fairly expensive, but it's an insanely useful box...


Dave/Suspect Studios

[stevep]

I would rather get the DI signal from the guitar , so it would be a splitter for me


I get a great DI sound, i run it through a custom DI to the console then to a 160X or MC77 then to tape or PT (No EQ needed most of the time)

I prefer a DI to most amps,..... If the player has an awesome sounding amp of course i will mic it and take a DI also but most guys amps dont sound the way they think.........

Most of the guys that want to mic an amp are live players,.... Ive never had a seasoned session player complain about a good DI signal

For the DI box,.. i like solid state over tubes for pop, rock,... for jazz or if we want a bit of distortion the tube is the one to go to, a friend brought in a LA2 front end and it was one of the best sounding tube DIs ive used in a while...


So for me..... its the DI

[vernier]

DI / THRU .. in and then out to an amp ...seems you're set.

[cstanley]

i'm a fan of the avalon U5 DI, it has a great audiophile sound
and also has the best low end out of any DI i've heard - as well
as line level output. throw that into a distressor & you are
good to go.

on a slightly different note it kind of pisses me off when i see
engineers say "you can only get a good bass sound when
you have a 4 string fender". to me that is just being lazy -
an engineer is being hired by a band to capture its sound,
5, 6, or 7 strings & all. i'm sure engineeers are used to recording
fender jazz with 10 year old strings into a ampeg B15 since
"thats how grandpa did it", but please folks - open up your minds,
try out some new techniques, and quit living in 1975.

<rant over>

-carl

[C/G]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

an excellent bass goes to an excellent di, with the output going to a capable mic pre, and the thru going to an excellent amp which i mic and print. if i can't get a great sound in 2 minutes, it's the player or the bass who are wrong for the song. not me.

A little more than 2 minutes for me as I'll fart around with a few amp or head combinations if something isn't quite working. But yeah, pretty much what seaneldon said.

[dbbubba]

I learned to record under the tutelage of guys who had been cutting big time jingle sessions and C&W stuff. The sound that learned was of a D.I. (generally a Countryman, Sphere Eclipse C, 1176, 2" analog)

When I started doing "serious" rock work I was always dissapointed by the sound of the bass. It was always too clean compared to what I heard on records. Even with great players it was kind of a drone going on beneath everything. Not a lot of personality.

Evntually, I had to record my good friend Kinley Wolf and he played a Music Man Stingray (he has a lot of Kramers, too) through a frankenstein rig that had whatever 15"s and 4x12"s he could find. The thing that was his signature was his use of distortion boxes and fuzz. Think Billy Sheehan from Memphis and with WAYYY more balls and attitude. Throw in a lot of Jaco, too. Extreme groove.
He is one of the most musical bass playrs I have worked with to date, but his tone is so unique and varied. His groove, touch and use of the many tones he can get is amazing.
He was eventually given a huge amount of Ampeg gear under an indorsement and I used to stand in front of his rig while he was playing live and realize that there was absolutely NO WAY I could capture that sound experience with one mic or D.I.
I eventually had TWO D.I.s (off the bass and after the stomp boxes) that fed a Demeter tube pre and then 1176s. I would mic an 8" on one of his Ampeg cabs with a 421 or possible a RE20.

I quickly realized that a D.I. was not going to work with him and it started me thinking about how I really was doing away with most bass player's personal tone when recording with a D.I.
Many were happy to not have to drag their amp to the studio, but I was never going to hear what they sounded like live. In a way, studio engineers can be a bit arrogant I suppose!

It really took someone who had such a unique and signature sound that was so musical and yet unique to FORCE me into re-thinking my bass recording.

If you go back and read about famous bass players that came up with the sounds that we now emulate... they mic'd their amps.
McCartney
Carol Kaye
the Motown cats (James Jamerson)

A P-bass (or a Jazz) can sound pretty cool through a Marshall Super Lead II and a decent 4x12" cab! I have recorded that combination often, too.