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dirty power in a home studio
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dudeitsree
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#1
12th February 2007
Old 12th February 2007
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dirty power in a home studio

I am having a lot of noise coming through on my recordings, the noise is some kind of hiss I need suggestions on power conditioners or something like that. I have stable voltage and a decent furman power conditioner already with the LIFT filter or what ever but is still nosey, the noise actually shows on the fire face que mix window My equipment is as listed:

Presonus ADL600
UA 2610
Ventech 473
All going into a Fire face 800
All monster prolink patch and mic cables

my outlet is directly grounded to well a grounding rod, the power supply for the ventech is as far away as posible, does it with no lights on no amps on. I have tried everything I can think of, PLEASE HELP!
#2
12th February 2007
Old 12th February 2007
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You are barking up the wrong tree.

Hiss is basically white noise from cheap electronics. Or it could be acoustic noise if you have dealt with sound proofing and sound treatment.

But basically hiss comes from the movement of electronics in circuits - and the only cure is to buy high quality circuits.

In other words, only buy high quality microphones, mic preamps, compressers, eq's that have low self noise.

The cheap stuff hisses. And often it is simply because they used resistors that were a few cents cheaper - but the whole cheapness thing leads to cheap sound. Pursuit of high quality gets expensive, and certainly there comes a point of diminishing returns, but the trick is to find the good stuff that doesn't hiss.

Changing the quality of your AC power won't help - because the type of hiss we are discussing occurs in DC circuits. The AC has already been transformed, rectified, regulated and filtered.

Now hum and buzz - those are AC power quality issues ...
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#3
12th February 2007
Old 12th February 2007
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It could be anything from a cable box
to your computer monitor to bad/cheap cables.

Without seeing your setup
I would just say, unplug everything in the studio
except for the devices you use to record with.

If you still have noise then its your gear (obviously)
Then go one by one through your gear.

I had a similar problem. I bought a $500 furman conditioner
it still didnt help. Come to find out it was my cable box

I brought the conditioner back. I just shut of my cable while I record now

I'm sure it's something simple.
Do a search here I saw a good posting a few months back on this topic

good luck
#4
12th February 2007
Old 12th February 2007
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Tubes can hiss when they are failing.

Preamps can hiss if you have too much gain, especially with cheap mics and cables.

Setting gain structure properly can take a bit to learn. Try to get each stage running in their sweet spot. Avoid unnecessary boosting followed by cutting.

Make sure you are aren't sending a line level signal into a mic leve input - for example.

Also - phantom power can hiss - if you don't need it on, turn it off.
#5
12th February 2007
Old 12th February 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dudeitsree View Post
the noise is some kind of hiss
There are basically 4 types of noise you might encounter in a studio:

Hiss (or white noise) as Kiwi said, this is cheap electronics and sometimes can be aleviatged by mods or chip swaps. The exception of course is tape hiss. It sounds the same as electronic hiss and is the main reason so many gates were sold in the 60's-90's.

60 Cycle ground hum - Sounds like you have this one under control

120, 240 & above harmonics of a 60 cycle problem. Can also be "hashy" noise from switching power supplies and computers. Often a tricky problem to track down

RF (radio interference) - ala the cheap oldies station or mexican mariachi station that creaps into your recordings. Usually solved by good shielding on your wiring unless you live under a radio tower.

From your description, you've got problem #1. All you can do without buying new gear or modding your equipment is to gain stage correctly and mute or gate things. Good luck.
#6
12th February 2007
Old 12th February 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dudeitsree View Post
Presonus ADL600
UA 2610
Ventech 473
All going into a Fire face 800
All monster prolink patch and mic cables

I wouldn't say his gear list is that cheap. The hiss should not be due to cheap components, unless there is something else in the chain that he is not telling us about.
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#7
12th February 2007
Old 12th February 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
There are basically 4 types of noise you might encounter in a studio:

Hiss (or white noise) as Kiwi said, this is cheap electronics and sometimes can be aleviatged by mods or chip swaps. The exception of course is tape hiss. It sounds the same as electronic hiss and is the main reason so many gates were sold in the 60's-90's.

60 Cycle ground hum - Sounds like you have this one under control

120, 240 & above harmonics of a 60 cycle problem. Can also be "hashy" noise from switching power supplies and computers. Often a tricky problem to track down

RF (radio interference) - ala the cheap oldies station or mexican mariachi station that creaps into your recordings. Usually solved by good shielding on your wiring unless you live under a radio tower.

I'd like to add a new one: digital signal from the power company.

We've been experiencing a 'frying bacon' electronic clock-like signal. After much hair-pulling and head-against-wall beating, we find out that it is our local electric company beta-testing their "television and broadband service" that is transmitted down the power lines.

Thanks IPL! You suck!

We must now isolate and balance our service. Well, I guess we should've done that long ago....
#8
12th February 2007
Old 12th February 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine Room View Post
I'd like to add a new one: digital signal from the power company.

We've been experiencing a 'frying bacon' electronic clock-like signal. After much hair-pulling and head-against-wall beating, we find out that it is our local electric company beta-testing their "television and broadband service" that is transmitted down the power lines.

Thanks IPL! You suck!

We must now isolate and balance our service. Well, I guess we should've done that long ago....

Ugh....that's an ugly thought. Is that going to become pretty standardized across the country? Like we didn't have enough problems.
#9
13th February 2007
Old 13th February 2007
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My google search:


Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.fcw.com/article91102-10-17-05-Web
Broadband-over-power lines (BPL) technology, which transmits radio frequency waves via electrical lines to deliver high-speed Internet service, works exceptionally well, but might not be a panacea for rural or remote places, a technology expert said.

Alan Shark, executive director of Public Technology Institute, the technology arm of several national associations of cities and counties, said the recent deployment of BPL across Manassas, Va., provides residents and businesses there a third affordable choice beyond DSL and cable service.

He said government agencies can use the new technology to do the following: develop certain applications they currently cannot make, such as pinpointing outages across their electrical grid; get centralized control of their traffic signals; operate video surveillance systems; and develop Wi-Fi hotspots in certain areas, among other things.

However, Shark, who has previously served as executive director of the Rural Broadband Coalition and president and chief executive officer of the Power Line Communications Association, said BPL might not be the answer to providing Internet service to rural or remote areas where traditional telecommunications providers have been reluctant to make investments. He said BPL is basically touted as a last half-mile solution.

Shark said you need repeaters along the electrical conduit every few hundred feet so the service isn’t degraded, but that might be too expensive a proposition for BPL providers. He said there might be hope for areas where there is a cluster of homes or some density. He also said newer technology that reconstitutes the signal for its entire trip is available, but might also still be too expensive.

Walter Adams, a vice president of new technology at Chantilly, Va.-based Communication Technologies, which is providing BPL service in Manassas, said there would be a degradation of service. “But it’s a question of what kind of service is good enough to someone who has no service,” he said.

Even if you start at 20 to 30 megabits/sec and the speed decreases to 300 to 500 kilobits/sec, customers might still benefit, he said. Otherwise, they may have to pay a lot more for satellite service.

He said the picture is getting better every day, but no mass market economy in terms of BPL equipment and customers exists yet. But Communication Technologies is in conversations with nine other utility companies nationwide that could potentially provide BPL access to several million customers.

Adams and Shark also said that this industry lacks standards, and many vendors are deploying or testing their own proprietary solutions. Shark said the nonprofit Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers is working on a standard, but it could also happen through market dominance by one vendor that breaks out of the gate and deploys it everywhere.
From Kinetrics website:

Power Line Communication (PLC) is a rapidly emerging technology providing communication links over existing power transmission and distribution networks. The development of PLC technology over the last decade has been accelerated by market deregulation, which has forced power utilities to explore new business opportunities.

The electric power grid has a unique feature in that it constitutes an existing infrastructure networked to billions of private customers as well as businesses. At the same time, it is a large-scale, as well as very integrated infrastructure: crossing the boundaries of homes and buildings, to individual wall outlets, home appliances and electrical equipment.

The PLC development has been focused on providing energy services within existing sector boundaries, but with new forms, features and scales. Examples are remote metering, remote billing, demand-side management, distribution automation and control from a distance. Other examples of new value-added services are remote security for home and office, intelligent energy and equipment cost- saving services, and ‘smart’ home automation.

Most currently available PLC technologies are not able to send and receive data signals through the local distribution transformers. The few that do typically require installation of expensive equipment either at the utility substation or elsewhere on the grid.

Technology description

Kinects® PLC technology is an innovative low-cost way of sending digital data. The Kinects® transceiver, which can transmit and receive data, is housed in a small box the size of an ordinary modem. Simply plugging it into a regular electrical outlet not only provides power to the unit, but also connects it to the power lines, which it uses to send and receive data signals. Unlike other PLC type systems, these signals pass through the local distribution transformer and travel along the high-voltage distribution lines. With this technology, data can be sent over 30 km at a baud rate of 0.5 bits/second, which is more than adequate for numerous applications.

Two key technological advances from Kinectrics have made this breakthrough possible. The first is a special signal transmitter, which achieves high levels of energy efficiency when driving an ultra-low impedance load. Using a patented system having a resonant network and micro-controller, strong signals can be transmitted into the low impedance power line using a minimal amount of energy. The second technical achievement is in the receiver that uses a patented digital algorithm to decode data from the received signals. This enables a much higher signal-to-noise ratio, and also prevents interference from power line harmonics.

With nothing other than an inexpensive transmitter and receiver connected to existing power lines, Kinects® PLC System can send/receivedata and control signals. By using the existing infrastructure, equipment costs are kept to a minimum. This technology is ideal for automated meter reading, load control, remote disconnect/reconnect, and power quality monitoring. Non-utility applications would include security, lighting, traffic signal, and remote monitoring.

Potential Applications

Utilities / Energy

* Automatic meter reading (AMR)
* Line monitoring
* Remote load control
* Remote disconnect / reconnect (RDR)
* Transformer tap changer
*

Outage detection

Non-Utilities

*
Traffic lights, display
* Emergency call station
* Transportation display
* Railway signaling
* Lighting – street, airport, warning beacons
* Security systems
* Remote monitoring – equipment, devices
*

Vending machines, photocopiers, etc.

Technical / Commercial Advantages

* Complete communication package in transceivers. No additional hardware required on the grid or substation to transmit and receive data.
* Proprietary technology – firmware and signal control topology
* Bi-directional communication through distribution transformer
* Scalable
* Inexpensive hardware allows lower cost / smaller number of users


So, I guess we all had better get used to the idea of big isolation transformers and power balancing for our systems.

ha!@ "Remote monitoring-equipment, devices! Whatever that means!!
#10
13th February 2007
Old 13th February 2007
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine Room View Post
My google search:




From Kinetrics website:

Power Line Communication (PLC) is a rapidly emerging technology providing communication links over existing power transmission and distribution networks. The development of PLC technology over the last decade has been accelerated by market deregulation, which has forced power utilities to explore new business opportunities.

The electric power grid has a unique feature in that it constitutes an existing infrastructure networked to billions of private customers as well as businesses. At the same time, it is a large-scale, as well as very integrated infrastructure: crossing the boundaries of homes and buildings, to individual wall outlets, home appliances and electrical equipment.

The PLC development has been focused on providing energy services within existing sector boundaries, but with new forms, features and scales. Examples are remote metering, remote billing, demand-side management, distribution automation and control from a distance. Other examples of new value-added services are remote security for home and office, intelligent energy and equipment cost- saving services, and ‘smart’ home automation.

Most currently available PLC technologies are not able to send and receive data signals through the local distribution transformers. The few that do typically require installation of expensive equipment either at the utility substation or elsewhere on the grid.

Technology description

Kinects® PLC technology is an innovative low-cost way of sending digital data. The Kinects® transceiver, which can transmit and receive data, is housed in a small box the size of an ordinary modem. Simply plugging it into a regular electrical outlet not only provides power to the unit, but also connects it to the power lines, which it uses to send and receive data signals. Unlike other PLC type systems, these signals pass through the local distribution transformer and travel along the high-voltage distribution lines. With this technology, data can be sent over 30 km at a baud rate of 0.5 bits/second, which is more than adequate for numerous applications.

Two key technological advances from Kinectrics have made this breakthrough possible. The first is a special signal transmitter, which achieves high levels of energy efficiency when driving an ultra-low impedance load. Using a patented system having a resonant network and micro-controller, strong signals can be transmitted into the low impedance power line using a minimal amount of energy. The second technical achievement is in the receiver that uses a patented digital algorithm to decode data from the received signals. This enables a much higher signal-to-noise ratio, and also prevents interference from power line harmonics.

With nothing other than an inexpensive transmitter and receiver connected to existing power lines, Kinects® PLC System can send/receivedata and control signals. By using the existing infrastructure, equipment costs are kept to a minimum. This technology is ideal for automated meter reading, load control, remote disconnect/reconnect, and power quality monitoring. Non-utility applications would include security, lighting, traffic signal, and remote monitoring.

Potential Applications

Utilities / Energy

* Automatic meter reading (AMR)
* Line monitoring
* Remote load control
* Remote disconnect / reconnect (RDR)
* Transformer tap changer
*

Outage detection

Non-Utilities

*
Traffic lights, display
* Emergency call station
* Transportation display
* Railway signaling
* Lighting – street, airport, warning beacons
* Security systems
* Remote monitoring – equipment, devices
*

Vending machines, photocopiers, etc.

Technical / Commercial Advantages

* Complete communication package in transceivers. No additional hardware required on the grid or substation to transmit and receive data.
* Proprietary technology – firmware and signal control topology
* Bi-directional communication through distribution transformer
* Scalable
* Inexpensive hardware allows lower cost / smaller number of users


So, I guess we all had better get used to the idea of big isolation transformers and power balancing for our systems.

ha!@ "Remote monitoring-equipment, devices! Whatever that means!!
Hummmmmmm.........all this sounds well interesting as I've been having " hissing" going on in my room as well!... ....There has been an increase of the digital communication stuff going up around me. Hummmmmm.....
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#11
13th February 2007
Old 13th February 2007
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Oh no, this is not hissing. This sounds like 'frying bacon' and it is extremely loud and multisprectral. It's not a weird 60hz noise, it's actually pretty hi-freq.

Tskatikitiktikitikitikitiktska. I'll try to get a decent sample and put it up.
#12
16th January 2012
Old 16th January 2012
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ProduceThis is offline
Special HISS

This has been an ongoing thing for me as well. The hiss is basically a bacon frying sound with a TIMED beep that is coming right through my monitors. Power conditioning has done NOTHING at all. If the power companies are doing this, they had better be prepared to supply me and everyone else with a little something to calm this down, as it has now kept me out of business for almost a week.
#13
16th January 2012
Old 16th January 2012
  #13
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i also have a strange noise in my studio.
its only through guitar amps. its like a tick or a clock.
tick...tick...tick...
not hearable when they play loud but quite annoying in quiet parts or the ending chord. anyone has an idea what to do about it?
with some guitars/amp combination its very audible, with others not at all...
it drives me nuts sometimes...
#14
16th January 2012
Old 16th January 2012
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjan View Post
i also have a strange noise in my studio.
its only through guitar amps. its like a tick or a clock.
tick...tick...tick...
not hearable when they play loud but quite annoying in quiet parts or the ending chord. anyone has an idea what to do about it?
with some guitars/amp combination its very audible, with others not at all...
it drives me nuts sometimes...
I've had this problem with having phones on in the studio. Sometimes the time keeping element inside your phone can get picked up by the guitar pickups and amplified. Is it louder/more noticeable with single coils as opposed to humbuckers? It may be easier to know what it is if you can record it.
#15
16th January 2012
Old 16th January 2012
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dudeitsree View Post
the noise is some kind of hiss
Isolated Power supplies will reduce hiss to a degree - but it comes at a high price for the result you are looking for.

Given your setup - and that it sounds like you are new to recording I would suggest you look at a few culprits that produce hiss in computer setups.

Hiss in an audio chain can be a result of improper gain settings - try to level off all of your gain controls to '0'...so that you are neither boosting or cutting gain.
That includes all of your preamps and the RME. Also when you go to record you should mute all the channels you are not using - open preamps can contribute hiss.

Look at your sources that you are recording - are they noisy? Guitar Amps with a mic close up will reveal quite quickly how noisy they can be - especially if you have a high gain setup.

Finally your monitor system - are you pushing speakers to full volume?
How are you sending the audio material out to your Monitors? Check out both of those to hear if they are producing hiss - and be aware that all monitors produce some nominal hiss - and the lower down the food chain you go amps can contribute a lot of hiss just standing idle.
#16
16th January 2012
Old 16th January 2012
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funny you say this because i had the crackling bacon come in and out at the studio....
After another head-banging-against-wall scenario, we realised the globe on our projector was shorting out on the metal inside.
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#17
17th January 2012
Old 17th January 2012
  #17
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Your Furman power conditioner doesn't really do anything there - unless you get into their voltage stabilizing units, you've basically got a glorified power strip filled with MOVs that go bad when they get zapped.

2 things I use that help in the studio and on stage:

UPS (uninterruptable power supply) - computer, drives, and rack are all connected to this. The UPS takes incoming power and regenerates a pure sine wave, giving you clean, stable power. This should filter out any of that digital noise. This also is good in hot areas like Dallas - if you're recording and a brownout hits, you have time to save your work and exit out. I have an APC model that works fine; Tripplite also has multiple models, including rackmountable.

Electrical transformer isolation - helpful when guitar amps, gear is making those odd high-pitched hisses, noises but no where else. I have 2 Ebtech Hum-x transformer isolators for this - one for my home amps, one for the gig bag.


If you want a studio quality surge protector, look into Surge X. SurgeX - The Leader in Surge Suppression, Elimination and Power Conditioning Technology
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dudeitsree
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#18
17th January 2012
Old 17th January 2012
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I started started this thread so long ago! Haha I have sorted out my problem, thanks!
#19
18th January 2012
Old 18th January 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dudeitsree View Post
I started started this thread so long ago! Haha I have sorted out my problem, thanks!

And you are going to leave it at that?<G> Please explain what you did....
#20
22nd March 2012
Old 22nd March 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjan View Post
i also have a strange noise in my studio.
its only through guitar amps. its like a tick or a clock.
tick...tick...tick...
not hearable when they play loud but quite annoying in quiet parts or the ending chord. anyone has an idea what to do about it?
with some guitars/amp combination its very audible, with others not at all...
it drives me nuts sometimes...
I just noticed this problem when I play my synthes, It was masked by my compressor/gate PreSonus ACP88, but then I hit the bypass and can hear it when I am not playing anything at all. I know I can easily edit it on my tracks and others don't notice it unless I point it out but I have become determined to find how to isolate it. I have about 7 synthes and I use a furman but I wonder if anyone had to deal with this.
#21
22nd March 2012
Old 22nd March 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekszet View Post
I just noticed this problem when I play my synthes, It was masked by my compressor/gate PreSonus ACP88, but then I hit the bypass and can hear it when I am not playing anything at all. I know I can easily edit it on my tracks and others don't notice it unless I point it out but I have become determined to find how to isolate it. I have about 7 synthes and I use a furman but I wonder if anyone had to deal with this.
well, I really hate to say it is all better but I did take a break and then went back in, I made some adjustments on gains and as we all know, the more we have in the line of signal, ie. compressors, mixers, sub mixers, power sources,, the more you have to make sure something is not creating that noise. Tomorrow I will turn on my recording computer and make some test tracks with the way I have it now as I seem to have got it to where it sounds good on the monitors and with headphones as well. I think I need to clean up my connections as well, anyway. if anyone has something positive to add or question great. I have read these forums for a long time but finnaly decided to register.
ty
#22
26th March 2012
Old 26th March 2012
  #22
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I am having the same problem that I am trying to fix with the power company's AMR (automated meter reading). It is an frequent 12.5 kHz beeping noise that is coming across my system... It will show up in my jbl lsr monitors running my toft tab console... When I set up my trident series 65 the noise cannot be heard... Going through several tests today on tomorrow with voltage regulators, filters, and help from the power company... I'll post results soon...

Also, this technology is going to be implemented all over the world to save money on manual meter reading by power companies so, get ready the problem could be heading your way!!!!

-Andrew
www.tweedrecording.com
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