Did I burn my ribbons?

[aapee]

Hi fellows!

I am so stupid! I am so stupid!

Do you know how can I be sure if I have burned my ribbons? If the ribbons are burned will they relay any sound at all or is the sound some how decresed by responce?

This is what happend. I connected pair of ribbons to my 01V96's channels 1 and 2 without remembering that I had earlyer switced on the phantom power to channels 1-4. The both tracks seemed to got normal looking waveforms. The produced sound was littlebit dark sounding but I suppose Tbone RB500 are that kind.

Tell me, have I burned the ribbons or could they still be OK?

with respect, stupid...

aapee

[The Byre]

Modern ribbons have a transformer to separate them from the desk to stop just this happening and also to step up the very low voltage the ribbon produces, so the answer is no. They wouldn't work at all if you had!

[aapee]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Modern ribbons have a transformer to separate them from the desk to stop just this happening and also to step up the very low voltage the ribbon produces, so the answer is no. They wouldn't work at all if you had!

Thank you The Byre! This answer has very liberating effect for my sunday . Thanks for giving it so rapid.

aapee

[Jade]

Originally Posted by aapee

Hi fellows!

I am so stupid! I am so stupid!

aapee

Know the feeling!
No, wait.. Umm.. I mean eehh.. Never felt it!!

[aapee]

Originally Posted by Jade

Know the feeling!
No, wait.. Umm.. I mean eehh.. Never felt it!!

Hey, this was also my first time ever...

aapee

[Sizzleboy]

Well, I don't want to be a buzz kill, but I did the same with one of my R84s. After doing so, I noticed that mic had a lower output and not so much highs as it's matched brother. I sent it to AEA. They ran a curve on the mic and said it was off by several dB compared to the original curve they had on file for the mic. The ribbon was replaced and the two mics sound identical again.

As far as ribbons, any one of them made today are designed to be able to handle phantom power if it is applied after the mic is plugged in. The problem with plugging it in to an active phantom powered connection is that the + and - connections may not connect at the same time, causing a 48 volt swing on one side of the ribbon, which could potentially stretch or snap the ribbon eliment.

And yes, a ribbon can be damaged (stretched) and still pick up audio.

If you are worried about it, I would try to compare them to a known undamaged mic, or just send them in for a checkup.

[The Byre]

I'd better explain -

The issue with phantom power on ribbons is that a sudden current flow generated by the phantom power could induce a motor effect in the ribbon, causing damage. Since some vintage ribbon mics also had centre-tapped output transformers, connecting a phantom supply would result in curent flowing down both legs to the transformer centre tap. But you should be fine, assuming that your cables and mics are wired correctly.

I know of one fine fellow who actually thought that his T-Bone ribbons had to have phantom power and ran them every day with 48V switched on! (And they still worked after several months of this.)

The microphone actually blocks DC (ie. phantom power) since it uses a step-up transformer. This is true of almost every modern ribbon. There is some suggestion that phantom can damage when switched on in some circumstances, since the switching is effectively high frequency and change of voltage can pass through the transformer, but I am yet to hear of this causing any problems.

Phantom only really causes prblems when used with mics which are wired unbalanced or incorrectly. In that case, yes you can fry the ribbon.

BUT it is wise to avoid using phantom with ribbon mics as it does in some cirumstances increase noise as any irregularities in phantom power appears across the mic output.

Avoid hot plugging cables when phantom is in use and you should be ok. But the 20:1 step-up transformer is also a step down transformer when a spike tries to go the other way. So a 48V impulse becomes just a 2.4V impulse when applied to the ribbon.

What very often happens is that someone who does not know what they are doing, opens the mic to test if the ribbon is still working. They get the 200 Ohms at the tranformer output stage, but then they put their multimeter across the input. This shoots repeated impulses of 9V (working voltage of the multimeter) across the ribbon and fries the poor thing.

[Scott R. Foster]

Hey B:

Is there an easy way to measure acorss pins on the end of the mic with a multi-meter to verify damage [or the lack thereof]?

TIA

[aapee]

Hi fellows!

Here are two attachment files where you can see and hear my test results. I just hitted drums and symbals one by one for you to hear if the mics sound close to normal. The ribbons are set as a Blumlein pair. For exsample the snare should be little bit right from the center like you can see from the picture. The mp3 -stereofile is just raw stereotrack without any compressing or limiting. Just raw stereotrack without dithering.

Could you please put your volume up and try to listen if my ribbons still sound close to OK?

Sizzleboy, thanks for giving also an other opinion but I hope that The Byre is still right...

aapee

[aapee]

Any comments yet?

aapee the stupid

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by Scott R. Foster

Hey B:

Is there an easy way to measure acorss pins on the end of the mic with a multi-meter to verify damage [or the lack thereof]?

TIA

No. You have a transformer there and so even if the ribbon was completely removed and put in the curry, you would still get 200 Ohms or whatever the output winding on the transformer is supposed to be.

You could in theory measure the ribbon by disconnecting it from the transformer and using a step-down resistor or better still, a step down resistor combined with a pot, so that the current from the MM is placed across the ribbon gradually.

But, to be honest, if it's working then the ribbon is there and working, so reading that it is there on a MM will not tell you anything.

The easy way is to compare it with a recording of how it used to sound or do an A-B comparision with a funtioning example of the same model.

The 'adult' way to test a mic (if you don't 'happen' to have an AP, HP or Agilent audio workstation!!!) is with a signal generator and an oscilloscope and a set of good studio monitors. Run through the frequencies and see if they are clean on the Oscar and the levels match the manufacturer's specs.

eBay is heaving with old analogue audio sig-gens and it is the one piece of kit (after a multimeter) that every studio owner should have. Then you could just record the sig-gen through the suspect mic and something similar like an SM57 and compare the two waveforms in PT or whatever.

I canot comment on the sound here because I do not have audio on this computer (it's one of our audio workstations and will not play out web stuff as it does not have an internal sound card).

[Sizzleboy]

Let's say you did do some damage (which is unlikely). There is very little chance that both mics would be effected in the same way. The mics would most likely sound different from each other. Compare the two on a source. If the tone and volume are the same in each mic, don't worry about it.

[aapee]

Originally Posted by Sizzleboy

Let's say you did do some damage (which is unlikely). There is very little chance that both mics would be effected in the same way. The mics would most likely sound different from each other. Compare the two on a source. If the tone and volume are the same in each mic, don't worry about it.

Do you have possibility to listen the sample? In my control room they sound quite close each other. The left side has littlebit more lowest bottom end but it could be because the mic stand was closer to bass drum.

I am not able to compare these ribbons to "fresh mic" because both of these mics was connected to my 01V96. Comments of the sound...? (No panic aapee.... PANIIIIIIIC!!!)

aapee

[Torwald]

I thought the clip sounded pretty good? It was kinda hard to tell when you didn't have any example of how they sounded before the accident. And I think your recording room looks really cosy, do you have more pics?

[uncle duncan]

Do you have anyone over there who can do the mod on those mics? They're supposed to sound much better after they're modded. Then you don't have to worry about it.

[aapee]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Do you have anyone over there who can do the mod on those mics? They're supposed to sound much better after they're modded. Then you don't have to worry about it.

Uncle Duncan!

Here in Finland, we don't have so many smiths who are qualified to do mods for mics. I suppose, there might be but I haven' heard anyway. What kind of mods people have done for these?

aapee

PS. You have great signature

[aapee]

Originally Posted by Torwald

I thought the clip sounded pretty good? It was kinda hard to tell when you didn't have any example of how they sounded before the accident. And I think your recording room looks really cosy, do you have more pics?

Tack ska du ha Torwald!

I feel it is cosy too even it is kind of small but by treatening it with panels and with super chunks it is very practical and gives me possibility to get quite good results. I'll send some more pics tonight.

aapee

[aapee]

Reptil!

What about the Blumlein setup?

aapee

PS. I hope that I am lucky

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by Scott R. Foster

Is there an easy way to measure acorss pins on the end of the mic with a multi-meter to verify damage [or the lack thereof]?

Royer Labs strongly advise AGAINST testing their mics with a multimeter!tutt

[aapee]

Originally Posted by Torwald

I thought the clip sounded pretty good? It was kinda hard to tell when you didn't have any example of how they sounded before the accident. And I think your recording room looks really cosy, do you have more pics?

Hi Torwald!

Here are some pics I found... They don't show so much but anyway something to get a picture. These rooms are not very large but they are quite well treated and therefor I am able to get very good results in my cosy project studio. The way to home is only 25 meters.

I have measured the control room with WinMLS and with Room Eq Wizard and they both gave me amazing good results to be such a small room. I suppose thanks for those seven broadband absorpters, two tube traps and three super chunks. In tracking room I have eight broadband absorpters and one super chunk. Later this spring I will install six more cloudpanels.

aapee

[Reptil]

hey looks nice, your place.
forget my comment about the blumlein, I thought it might be hard to compare a stereo balance in a double figure 8 setup, reflections, but. of course *slaps forehead* the ribbon is fig 8..
duh so disregard please
tempory lack of cognitive functions (I was in the middle of a fight with a midi controller )

aah I don't think they're broken.

[aapee]

Originally Posted by Reptil

hey looks nice, your place.
forget my comment about the blumlein, I thought it might be hard to compare a stereo balance in a double figure 8 setup, reflections, but. of course *slaps forehead* the ribbon is fig 8..
duh so disregard please
tempory lack of cognitive functions (I was in the middle of a fight with a midi controller )

aah I don't think they're broken.

Step by some day, will offer you beer or two!

[Reptil]

HA, that I'll do. I'll bring some beer we make here!

[aapee]

Originally Posted by Reptil

HA, that I'll do. I'll bring some beer we make here!

Aah.... Heineken...

[Matti]

aapee, hi!
For modding these and similiar Alctron ribbons rib off the
extra mesh around the element and change the output transformer to a Cinemag or Lundhal. I think www.oktavamod.com has some pictures and do a search around the forums.
Cheers
Matti, Helsinki

edit: here´s one of his mods.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by MATTI

aapee, hi!
For modding these and similiar Alctron ribbons rib off the
extra mesh around the element and change the output transformer to a Cinemag or Lundhal. I think www.oktavamod.com has some pictures and do a search around the forums.
Cheers
Matti, Helsinki

edit: here´s one of his mods.

hey, interesting! I might want to get me a pair of these.
(after I've sold some stuff)

as for the Nady vs. Thomann&others controversy: I can't buy Nady here.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by aapee

Aah.... Heineken...

orrr this
http://www.desnaterendearend.nl/

it's very nice. almost like getting high. no hangover (unless you overdo it). extremely healthy!
heineken's ok, but a bit too civillised and polished IMHO. probably the export kind to finland is much better.
all the bottles taste the same, which is IMO weird, cause beer should be alive when you drink it.

[aapee]

Originally Posted by MATTI

aapee, hi!
For modding these and similiar Alctron ribbons rib off the
extra mesh around the element and change the output transformer to a Cinemag or Lundhal. I think www.oktavamod.com has some pictures and do a search around the forums.
Cheers
Matti, Helsinki

edit: here´s one of his mods.

Thanks Matti! I'll check this possibility.

aapee

Edited: Is this guy located to USA? Hmm... That makes Tbones to cost quite amount more... But surely they would be miles ahead in the sound!
Do you know anybody here in Finland who could do these kind of mods?

[aapee]

Originally Posted by Reptil

orrr this
http://www.desnaterendearend.nl/

it's very nice. almost like getting high. no hangover (unless you overdo it). extremely healthy!
heineken's ok, but a bit too civillised and polished IMHO. probably the export kind to finland is much better.
all the bottles taste the same, which is IMO weird, cause beer should be alive when you drink it.

OLVI is way to go in Finland. Actually the last pure Finnish product anymore. The rest are dfegad .

aapee

[Graham Tobias]

from stories I've heard, the most danger you can put ribbon mics in is when you put a patchbay between them and the preamp. If you have your ribbon patched to an outboard pre, but its normalled to your console, if you unpatch it, and you have phantom running on your console, when the normal returns, your mic will fry because TT and TRS connectors don't make connections at the same time.