Thoughts on Music - Steve Jobs about DRM

[Resonater]

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/

[-Noodles-]

interesting read, thanks!

[londontown]

Originally Posted by -Noodles-

interesting read, thanks!

whatever you think of Jobs (I have a ton of respect for him), you can't deny he's an excellent speaker and writer. That's one of the most lucid explanations of the situation I've seen.

[7 Hz]

It's a bit more than that, it's a call to arms for any activists. He only failed to give the label bosses bedside phone numbers away so we could phone them and tell them to dump DRM.

Interesting, he obviously has his cards on the table now, quite ballsy IMHO.

[DrDeltaM]

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/

[7 Hz]

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=108148

[MattiMattMatt]

essentially hitting the ball into the labels' court following the growing revolt against DRM in Europe.

Do you think the labels will agree?

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt

essentially hitting the ball into the labels' court following the growing revolt against DRM in Europe.

Do you think the labels will agree?

Steve Jobs is hitting the nail on the head IMO, and I hope the labels will think about his words. The revolt against DRM in Europe has good and noble reasons, but they do aim too much for Apple (just cuz iTunes is the biggest online store as other stores have similar DRM limitations), while Apple themselves isn't in the position to abandon DRM at own will.

I'm curious what Europe will do, and hope they put pressure on the labels themselves rather then Apple.

[Mike O]

Anybody know for sure how long Apple's contract is witht he majors?

[Jules]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

I'm curious what Europe will do, and hope they put pressure on the labels themselves rather then Apple.

Isn't there a lot of legacy / ego / pride involved in the European record co's?

Bertelsmann group / RCA
EMI - The Beatles - Abbey Road
HMV (His Master's Voice)

Some classics's there...

They might find it hard to back down and agree to Apple..

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by Mike O

Anybody know for sure how long Apple's contract is witht he majors?

I read that they recently all signed one-year renewals.

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by Jules

Isn't there a lot of legacy / ego / pride involved in the European record co's?

Bertelsmann group / RCA
EMI - The Beatles - Abbey Road
HMV (His Master's Voice)

Some classics's there...

They might find it hard to back down and agree to Apple..

Well, it wouldn't come down to agree with Apple, but to settling an agreement with the European Union...

I think the record companies see the value for them in working with Apple. Even the Beatles catalog will be on iTunes soon, after years of disputes about the Apple brandname: http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2466

[Mike O]

From Jobs article:

"When Apple approached these companies to license their music to distribute legally over the Internet, they were extremely cautious and required Apple to protect their music from being illegally copied. The solution was to create a DRM system, which envelopes each song purchased from the iTunes store in special and secret software so that it cannot be played on unauthorized devices."

My understanding of the above is that Apple created a DRM as a part of iTunes at the big fours insistance.

From Jobs article:

"Convincing them to license their music to Apple and others DRM-free will create a truly interoperable music marketplace. Apple will embrace this wholeheartedly."

Now....am I to believe that Jobs REALLY wants the big four to sell their catalog to "Apple and others" without a DRM? That is insane and he knows it. If BMG sells the catalog to all without DRM they be back to Napster (zero $) in about 30 days.

I am sure that Mr. Jobs counter argument goes something like these:"Iif Apple "and others' bought the catalog from the big four competitively then we would essentially be competing on our ability to distribute the product. Since we have iTunes, we would crush 'em".

I am probably missing something (OK I am certain of it), but I am not buying it. Without a DRM (like iTunes has) it seems to me that the music becomes free. As Bob Olhsson has pointed out Silicon Valley wins. The artists and by extension people that record loose as budgets continue to decline.

O.K. - Tell how Jobs 'suggestion' would REALLY work.....

[Raygun]

Originally Posted by Mike O

Now....am I to believe that Jobs REALLY wants the big four to sell their catalog to "Apple and others" without a DRM? That is insane and he knows it. If BMG sells the catalog to all without DRM they be back to Napster (zero $) in about 30 days.

I am sure that Mr. Jobs counter argument goes something like these:"Iif Apple "and others' bought the catalog from the big four competitively then we would essentially be competing on our ability to distribute the product. Since we have iTunes, we would crush 'em".

I am probably missing something (OK I am certain of it), but I am not buying it. Without a DRM (like iTunes has) it seems to me that the music becomes free. As Bob Olhsson has pointed out Silicon Valley wins. The artists and by extension people that record loose as budgets continue to decline.

O.K. - Tell how Jobs 'suggestion' would REALLY work.....

How do you mean? How would the music become free if it doesn't have a DRM?
You buy a CD - you've bought something and it doesn't have a DRM.
You buy a download - you've bought something and it has a DRM. Now, if you remove that DRM - how is the music free all of a sudden?

Personally, I think more people would buy downloads if there weren't any DRM at all.
With a total of six computers myself, I find it annoying to have to think about which one I'm on.. Sure, a luxury kind of problem but still. I don't want to even think about it!

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by londontown

whatever you think of Jobs (I have a ton of respect for him), you can't deny he's an excellent speaker and writer. That's one of the most lucid explanations of the situation I've seen.

The problem with Jobs is not his intelligence it's his arrogance.
I mean look at this 'I Phone'. Phones with similar functionality
have been out for years. Yet he 'Unveiles' it like it's 'The Wheel' or 'Electricity'
as if he invented something new.

Then he pulls a Bill Gates with OSX. He bascially writes a cheezy SHELL over
a free UNIX kernel that was written by 19 year old undegrads 25 Years ago. And acts like he pioneered some new
cutting edge Operating system. What a Joke. Not to mention early releases of OSX crashed as much if not more than XP

Also he has these stupid TV commercials
"HI I'm a mac" "and I'm a PC"
yet his OS runs on a PC and His 'Apple' logo is labeled on a PC. Duh
It's really bizzare and makes no sense. He totally contradicts himself
and people fall for his marketing scams

Don't forget in 1998 Bill Gates gave him several million dollars,
basically 20% of Apple's market cap at the time to prevent Apple from going under.

And yet he still has the balls to pull this "MAC vs PC" crap.

He's just plain arrogant. It's funny, it was DEC, IBM's and Xerox's arrogance that led to their own downfalls in the PC market. Jobs' arrogance may be his own downfall someday. That fact that he doesn't acknowlege his computers are 'PCs' is
just plain denial

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by allencollins

That fact that he doesn't acknowlege his computers are 'PCs' is just plain denial

I guess you misunderstood the message there: with 'PC' they simply mean windows based computers, generally known to the public as 'PC'. While almost all Macs ever have been personal computers (PC) as well of course. And Apple isn't speaking either about 'PC's running other then Windows OS.
Anyway, this is all material for another Mac vs PC thread...

This thread is supposed to be about DRM.
Is DRM really needed? Wouldn't it be better for bothy customers and majors to have DRM free music in online stores?

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Jobs' arrogance may be his own downfall someday. That fact that he doesn't acknowlege his computers are 'PCs' is
just plain denial

Hmmm. Check the article over again. He always refers to them as "WindowsPCs", which indicates that he considers Macs PCs (whatever that really means), or he wouldn't make the distinction. And what you call arrogance, I call smart marketing. I'm a longtime "WindowsPC" user, only recently made the switch to Macs, and a major component of pushing me over the edge was that they can now run Windows, too. Jobs has helped create an impressively loyal, if sometimes nutty, fanbase. And while I'm certainly no member of the "cult of Mac", I can appreciate a good product and savvy entrepreneurship when I see it.

That said, I also agree with DrDeltaM on the point about the article not being about that anyway. It's about DRM. And given the nature of your criticism, I'd figure that you'd actually like what Jobs is saying about where the industry needs to go (even if his article was clearly motivated to deflect blame based on upcoming EU legal battles -- in this case, I think, rightly so). He is arguing for an open, not closed system. He is suggesting an end to the current proprietary-based setup in an acknowledgment of reality.

On the other hand, I do appreciate the on-line rants. They stir things up, and often warn me of possible problems (no matter how unlikely they might be). I remember a thread the other day where someone asked if there was actually anything you liked at all. Hey, we need that too.

Insert quote about Socrates here.

[GearBit]

Originally Posted by allencollins

The problem with Jobs is not his intelligence it's his arrogance.
I mean look at this 'I Phone'. Phones with similar functionality
have been out for years. Yet he 'Unveiles' it like it's 'The Wheel' or 'Electricity'
as if he invented something new.

Then he pulls a Bill Gates with OSX. He bascially writes a cheezy SHELL over
a free UNIX kernel that was written by 19 year old undegrads 25 Years ago. And acts like he pioneered some new
cutting edge Operating system. What a Joke. Not to mention early releases of OSX crashed as much if not more than XP

Also he has these stupid TV commercials
"HI I'm a mac" "and I'm a PC"
yet his OS runs on a PC and His 'Apple' logo is labeled on a PC. Duh
It's really bizzare and makes no sense. He totally contradicts himself
and people fall for his marketing scams

Don't forget in 1998 Bill Gates gave him several million dollars,
basically 20% of Apple's market cap at the time to prevent Apple from going under.

And yet he still has the balls to pull this "MAC vs PC" crap.

He's just plain arrogant. It's funny, it was DEC, IBM's and Xerox's arrogance that led to their own downfalls in the PC market. Jobs' arrogance may be his own downfall someday. That fact that he doesn't acknowlege his computers are 'PCs' is
just plain denial

And you would prefer that he come out and sheepishly announce the iPhone?
"Im sorry but, it's really not that great of a device....eeeh don't buy it, iSuck"
This IS planet earth.

[7 Hz]

Originally Posted by Mike O

Now....am I to believe that Jobs REALLY wants the big four to sell their catalog to "Apple and others" without a DRM? That is insane and he knows it. If BMG sells the catalog to all without DRM they be back to Napster (zero $) in about 30 days.

Read the article again. 97% of music in iPods is NOT DRM music, only 3% is. CD's are not DRM.

People have to eith accept that it is not only imposible to prevent digital copying of music, but also that it hurts the business model to even try to do that. If your business relies of copy protection to secure the sale, it is a very shakey model, and it WILL hurt your 'real' sales.

The genie was let out the bottle in 1982 with the release of CD's. There is no going back. We need forward looking business models for digital data, not broken copy protection that invalidates your rights to use what you purchace.

I.E. ENOUGH WITH THE CONTROL FREAKERY ALREADY!

[RichS]

You guys are missing the big picture!

If Apple gets the major labels to do away with DRM, then that insidious Microsoft DRM goes away too!... one less competing standard for Microsoft to control and possibly jam down the public's throats.

Go Steve!!!

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by RichS

You guys are missing the big picture!

If Apple gets the major labels to do away with DRM, then that insidious Microsoft DRM goes away too!... one less competing standard for Microsoft to control and possibly jam down the public's throats.

Go Steve!!!

Pretty much exactly my point.

[ntimkovich]

this is hitting mainstream media now...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6337275.stm

FWIW -- I think this is awesome. Of course Steve Jobs will benefit immensely if DRM is done away with, but we will all benefit as well. no DRM via internet sales means a lot more people are going to purchase music online.

now all they need is a store that sells uncompressed audio

all the best,
nick

[MattiMattMatt]

Originally Posted by RichS

You guys are missing the big picture!

If Apple gets the major labels to do away with DRM, then that insidious Microsoft DRM goes away too!... one less competing standard for Microsoft to control and possibly jam down the public's throats.

I think there's an even bigger picture: DRM is a precondition for subscription music services. Without DRM, they wouldn't work. Since Apple is married to a pay-to-own rather than a subscription model, abolishing DRM would obliterate not just a competitor but a competing business model.

[by-tor]

Originally Posted by allencollins

The problem with Jobs is not his intelligence it's his arrogance.
I mean look at this 'I Phone'. Phones with similar functionality
have been out for years. Yet he 'Unveiles' it like it's 'The Wheel' or 'Electricity'
as if he invented something new.

uhmm Hello. It was new for apple. It was keynote. It is a FOR PROFIT company. They have to make some hype.

Originally Posted by allencollins

Then he pulls a Bill Gates with OSX. He bascially writes a cheezy SHELL over
a free UNIX kernel that was written by 19 year old undegrads 25 Years ago. And acts like he pioneered some new
cutting edge Operating system. What a Joke. Not to mention early releases of OSX crashed as much if not more than XP
l

Cheesy Shell? OS x may run on unix but and it may have been unstable VERY early on but it smokes xp and vista so I could care less about what dweeb wrote what. And besides isn't that the point of open source stuff? To build on it and make something cool from it? I also like how you say "He" wrote OS X. You seem to think this is personal.

Originally Posted by allencollins

Also he has these stupid TV commercials
"HI I'm a mac" "and I'm a PC"
yet his OS runs on a PC and His 'Apple' logo is labeled on a PC. Duh
It's really bizzare and makes no sense. He totally contradicts himself
and people fall for his marketing scams

Wha? Those commercials are pretty clear. But let me help you. A PC running OS X is called a MAC. They are easier to use for the average person and have many cool features built in. Not to mention being more stable and more secure. Oh and also growing in market share by the day.

Originally Posted by allencollins

Don't forget in 1998 Bill Gates gave him several million dollars,
basically 20% of Apple's market cap at the time to prevent Apple from going under.

And yet he still has the balls to pull this "MAC vs PC" crap.

Yes. Back then and even today microsoft needs apple and apple needs microsoft. And yes apple does the mac vs pc thing. Why? Because of people like you.

[emkay]

Originally Posted by allencollins

The problem with Jobs is not his intelligence it's his arrogance.
I mean look at this 'I Phone'. Phones with similar functionality
have been out for years. Yet he 'Unveiles' it like it's 'The Wheel' or 'Electricity'
as if he invented something new.

Then he pulls a Bill Gates with OSX. He bascially writes a cheezy SHELL over
a free UNIX kernel that was written by 19 year old undegrads 25 Years ago. And acts like he pioneered some new
cutting edge Operating system. What a Joke. Not to mention early releases of OSX crashed as much if not more than XP

Also he has these stupid TV commercials
"HI I'm a mac" "and I'm a PC"
yet his OS runs on a PC and His 'Apple' logo is labeled on a PC. Duh
It's really bizzare and makes no sense. He totally contradicts himself
and people fall for his marketing scams

Don't forget in 1998 Bill Gates gave him several million dollars,
basically 20% of Apple's market cap at the time to prevent Apple from going under.

And yet he still has the balls to pull this "MAC vs PC" crap.

He's just plain arrogant. It's funny, it was DEC, IBM's and Xerox's arrogance that led to their own downfalls in the PC market. Jobs' arrogance may be his own downfall someday. That fact that he doesn't acknowlege his computers are 'PCs' is
just plain denial

Damn, I've only been at GS a short time, but I've gotta tell you---I respect the fact that you're a real piece of work-----gawd bless u

[emkay]

of the majors, and their huge annual profit losses, layoffs etc.--you'd think that embracing Job's plan would be a no brainer for them- just the savings in administration costs to manage DRM as Jobs pointed out, might be incentive enough!
But I guess in the anachronistic mind of the majors, DRM is a way of controlling or trying to control the internet and let's face it, the internet is the "mortal enemy" of both the music biz and the government .....

[MattiMattMatt]

Originally Posted by allencollins

The problem with Jobs is not his intelligence it's his arrogance.
I mean look at this 'I Phone'. Phones with similar functionality
have been out for years. Yet he 'Unveiles' it like it's 'The Wheel' or 'Electricity'
as if he invented something new.

Then he pulls a Bill Gates with OSX. He bascially writes a cheezy SHELL over
a free UNIX kernel that was written by 19 year old undegrads 25 Years ago. And acts like he pioneered some new
cutting edge Operating system. What a Joke. Not to mention early releases of OSX crashed as much if not more than XP

Also he has these stupid TV commercials
"HI I'm a mac" "and I'm a PC"
yet his OS runs on a PC and His 'Apple' logo is labeled on a PC. Duh
It's really bizzare and makes no sense. He totally contradicts himself
and people fall for his marketing scams

You know what also sucks? if you swallow a desktop Mac it gives you wicked bad heartburn. I mean that's SO stupid. You can't even eat these things. Even dumbass McDonald's makes stuff you can eat. But try going into one of those stupid Apple stores if you're hungry! Sure, the new wireless mouse MIGHT be something you could swallow, but the taste? And then those commercials. Even Steve Jobs knows there's not 1 thing in them about how you can't eat the computers. Pure unadulterated arrogance. Not that I have some irrational hatred of Apple or anything, I'm just pointing out the obvious. "Apple" ... that's a fruit. So why can't I eat these things??!!

Originally Posted by allencollins

Don't forget in 1998 Bill Gates gave him several million dollars,

(At the time, Microsoft was facing mounting legal challenges for being a monopoly. MS had a vested interest in maintaining a credible and non-threatening competitor. The cost to MS if Apple went out of business would have been greater than the money MS invested in Apple (and not just because Apple was, in effect, doing MS's R&D). It's a symbiotic relationship strained only now that Apple has become a more serious competitor.)

Originally Posted by allencollins

And yet he still has the balls to pull this "MAC vs PC" crap.

Apple sucks Apple sucks Apple sucks Apple sucks. APPLE S U C K S!!!! Apple Sucks!! [pant pant]

OH yeah. DRM.... that's what this is about.

Sorry.

Just a Pavlov's dog thing.

whenever I hear "Apple" I just can't help myself. It uncorks me and I have to go off on Apple. I know it's just a company and I know my reaction isn't rational. I admit my problem and I know that's a first and important step to recovery and want to apologize to everyone and thank you for your patience. I promise not to disrupt this conversation about DRM with any more personal, irrational, irrelevant and anthropomorphic diatribes against a company I happen to HAAAAATE. Sorry I did it again.

Oh yeah.

No DRM. Coooool.

But Apple... must hate apple must hate apple must hate...

[/irony]

[Jules]

OK guys break out the tranquilizer gun, I think were are going to have to hit MattiMattMatt with TWO darts this time...

[Jules]

Is it just me that thinks recorded music is the poor cousin?

And that the issues that will REALLY matter and are where the big $$$ are - are films and books?

Apple prbably already have a pocket 'electronic book' in the works
They already have Video Ipods..

[firby]

Originally Posted by ntimkovich

this is hitting mainstream media now...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6337275.stm

FWIW -- I think this is awesome. Of course Steve Jobs will benefit immensely if DRM is done away with, but we will all benefit as well. no DRM via internet sales means a lot more people are going to purchase music online.

now all they need is a store that sells uncompressed audio

all the best,
nick

thank you. MP3s have sucked for a decade now.