How are you guys mixing without subs?

[numrologst]

I have a nicely designed control room... It's not absolutely 100% perfect, but I would give it an 8.5 or 9 out of 10... I designed it myself with the help of an acoustician... And he made my design much better... Although my control room is only about 2200 cubic feet... Should be at least 2500 cubic feet... So dock some points for that... And the inside of the walls flex a bit too much and add a little more bass trapping than i wanted, so i dock it some points for that.

But all in all it's a nice room... I've tried tons of different monitors in this room and could never get the bass i needed without the use of a sub... I don't crank the sub or anything... I just turn it up a hair.

But how do you guys get by without subs?

I've tried a7's, bm5a's, bm6a's, 8030a's, and i finally settled on the 8040a's.. Maybe i should have gone for the 8050a's... But i still think every speaker i have seen is lacking in the low end... What's up with this?

[Capstan Cappy]

if thats true then there still must be something wrong with the room, its not normal to not hear the low end from speakers wich do 35hz at -3db regardless of size
if the traps for the low-end are easy removeble en can be put back in place then i suggest removing a few to listen to the difference, if u hear a BIG difference then u know it....

example: in my fathers studio a long time ago when he redesigned the room with an acoustical guy who did it for a living they calculated the amount of traps and size of it.
when my dad turned on his tannoy FSM's wich have a 15" woofer each it was as if he turned on a loud transistor radio with no responce below 80hz whatsoever, so they removed half the traps , and guess what, problem solved!!!

not saying you guy doenst know what hes doing but a mistake is easily made when calculating, i mean from 0-10, thats WAY too many numbers!!! )P

[numrologst]

it's not that i can't hear it... I definately can hear it and it's not a huge huge deal... It's just not like wow nice bass.

You can hear it but not really HEAR it until you turn the sub up a hair.

I've only got 8 traps in the room right now... I've got 4 4" thick, and 4 2" thick... Maybe I'll do away with 2 of the 4"ers and see if that makes a difference.

But when I just put a touch of sub on, suddenly my whole room fills nicely with sound... We're talking like putting the sub on volume 2 in roation of 10....


That;s why i think i am expecting too much out of my monitors

[BlueRadio]

Originally Posted by numrologst

it's not that i can't hear it... I definately can hear it and it's not a huge huge deal... It's just not like wow nice bass.

Couple of things...

I think that you ARE expecting too much from your monitors. I don't think it's supposed to be "wow nice bass," or even "wow nice treble." It is idea if they sound clear, clean, and pretty plain jane.

Also, if you mix better with the sub turned up a hair, then go ahead and turn it up a hair!

I personally prefer mixing with a sub turned up just as you describe...I don't like to play guessing games with the deep deep lows either. best of luck to you

[numrologst]

cool... I just wanted to make sure i wasn't cracking up... ever since i added the sub my mixes have always translated the way i expect

[jayman]

Have you tried moving the monitors closer to the front wall? I'm sure you probably have. In my room it makes ALL the difference. I'm on Barefoot MM27s, and I had them out in the room by about 7 feet, and I was just not getting good bass. Yeah, it was there, like you describe, but I really didn't feel like I was getting full range monitoring, which to me really allows you to get the bass/kick right. If the sub is working, that's great, but this might be something else to try if necessary.

j

[Berolzheimer]

Where is your bass trapping? location makes a big difference. Ideally you want to support the low end in the front, but then absorb it in the back so it doesn't bounce back & cause cancellations when it meets up with itself in the middle.

[Protools Guy]

i don't have a sub (yet), so i go to the back of my control room, where the bass loads up, to check the low end. it gets tiring, and eventually i'll get a sub.

[DeathMonkey]

I wing it.

[Bang]

If anyone here has nearfield monitors and think they are getting full bass response, then think again. My Proacs say they go down to 40Hz. Nah Ah. They go down to 60Hz near perfect. But for the 40-60Hz stuff, you need the sub, and that stuff is VERY important. On nearfields, you can have a huge bump in that area and not even know it... but you will hear the cloud that it causes on much of the rest of your audio, especially if you try to master your stuff and add compression and limiting. All that low end energy will eat up your headroom fast as well. So if you don't have a sub, get one. Thank me later.

[numrologst]

yeah definately before i got the sub the monitors would start clipping at very low volumes... Even the 8040a's... Then i got the sub, and high passes to the genelecs at 130hz... ANd what a difference it made as far as clipping goes....

I got the hp on 80hz now..> Sometimes i will take it up and down to taste for the song

[u b k]

sony 7506's go a long way towards telling you what you need to know down there.

i just listened to a couple of my past mixes on the focals for the first time, the first thing they did was scream TOO MUCH 40.

numr, you just want a more visceral experience than most near/midfield mix monitors are designed to give. in particular, many smaller 2-ways tend to suffer from excessive low end reproduction, as it clouds up the low mids. there's nothing wrong with wanting more oomph, a sub is a great way to go in that case. my recommendation to you is to remove the hipass from the gene's and roll the sub off so that it just tucks up underneath the genelecs' natural rolloff. ime this creates a more accurate picture of the low end, and it removes from your full range speakers the phase artifacts that hipass filters invariably introduce.

as an aside, i now tend to mix at 60-65db; it's such a different experience, i used to need everything to kick me in the face. but dialing the mix at uberquiet levels really allows me to create a sense of space you can see into. but not all monitors speak at that low of a level, the right tool is essential.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[warhead]

Mackie HR824, and everytime I send out a mix there are no low end issues. I know them well.

With all the records that have been mixed on NS10's over the years (which don't have much real low end response) without subs I'd say it's still possible to do today.

One advantage of a sub would be the crossover to nearfields allowing you to get more volume out of them.

War

[squeegybug]

Yeah I use a sub... actually two subs. Also set very low in level and frequency, with 4th order rolloff at 45 Hz.

I like to be able to switch between monitor only, sub only, and monitor+sub.

I found that a stereo pair of subwoofers makes things so much easier and better.

I must own quite a few records made with NS10 or similar.... because with a high quality full range playback system I get plenty of footstomps, breath pops, mic stand bumps, piano pedals pounding, trucks and airplanes and trains rumbling, etc etc. Somebody was either not hearing that in the mix, or chose to ignore it.

Steve

[drumkideric]

I know the Dynaudio's don't go down that low. I have the BM-5a's and I couldn't get the right low end until I added a sub. I think those monitors only go down to 50 Hz or so.
It would take a larger woofer than a 6" to get the best bass response, so the 8" woofer monitors will make it easier to get the right low end with out a sub, but I always think is a sub is helpful anyways.

[3rdeyeKnight]

Originally Posted by drumkideric

I know the Dynaudio's don't go down that low. I have the BM-5a's and I couldn't get the right low end until I added a sub. I think those monitors only go down to 50 Hz or so.
It would take a larger woofer than a 6" to get the best bass response, so the 8" woofer monitors will make it easier to get the right low end with out a sub, but I always think is a sub is helpful anyways.

Which sub are you using with the BM5A's? I have a pair also, and have been thinking about adding one for some time now. I normally do what u b k suggested above, except switch between Sennheiser 280's and 600's for bass reference. It's a bit time consuming, bit I've kind of gotten used to it.

[drumkideric]

I have the Definitive Technology Supercube II. It is an amazing sub. It made a 100% improvement on the Dynaudio's. I got it from a High-Fi Buys in Nashville.

[barefoot]

Originally Posted by u b k

... there's nothing wrong with wanting more oomph, a sub is a great way to go in that case. my recommendation to you is to remove the hipass from the gene's and roll the sub off so that it just tucks up underneath the genelecs' natural rolloff. ime this creates a more accurate picture of the low end, and it removes from your full range speakers the phase artifacts that hipass filters invariably introduce.

I hear this rationale a lot, but it's a misunderstanding of the situation at hand. A speaker in a box IS a high pass filter. It has all the associated group delay (phase) and transient artifacts of any similar electronic filter, plus a bunch more bad stuff. You don't avoid anything by not using an electronic high pass filter with a sub. All you do is waste one of the primary benefits of having the sub. Namely: reliving the monitors of some of their low frequency duties.

Like I said, a speaker in a box is a high pass filter. However, it is far less ideal and far more prone to distortion than any decent electronic filter. And in a 2-way system that low frequency induced distortion lands right in the upper bass and midrange. So filtering out the lows and handing over the duties to a dedicated sub will do much more good than any small harm that the electronic filter might cause. Not using a high pass filter just gives a false sense of minimalism. A well integrated 2-way/sub crossover filter yields cleaner, more precise upper bass and mids. And from a total system perspective, it's actually simpler and more minimalist than trying to integrate the sub with the complex electro-mechanical-acoustic high pass filter presented by the monitor's woofer in a box.

Thomas

[Capstan Cappy]

Originally Posted by u b k

as an aside, i now tend to mix at 60-65db; it's such a different experience, i used to need everything to kick me in the face. but dialing the mix at uberquiet levels really allows me to create a sense of space you can see into. but not all monitors speak at that low of a level, the right tool is essential.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

agree here, when listening at loud or very loud volumes our ears tend to function as compressor limitors, therefore not able to accurately judge the stereo image,,

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by numrologst

the inside of the walls flex a bit too much and add a little more bass trapping than i wanted, so i dock it some points for that.

A room that size needs as much bass trapping as possible. The more you have, the closer you get to flat. The only problem with walls that flex is they allow low frequency sound to pass through. If isolation is not an issue for you, having flexing walls is a good thing.

If you have bass problems when using full range speakers, I'm sure you need even more bass trapping. You said you have only four 4" thick traps, but for a room that size you really need a dozen or more to get a great sounding low end.

--Ethan

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by numrologst

... But i still think every speaker i have seen is lacking in the low end... What's up with this?

You are (IMO) of course right - and you were right to get a sub.

All these pokey little nearfields are just that, pokey little nearfields. They work fine down to a certain fequency, but after about 100Hz, they rely on a bass reflex opening to simulate a larger speaker. This means that they make some sort of noise, but it is far from accurate, as the reflex opening allows the speaker driver to 'flap' and this means that the response rate is very poor.

My favorite example of this is the Mackie 824. Down to 100Hz it is a first class little speaker, but instead of doing the honest thing and cutting it off there and handing the work over to a sub, Mackie insist on spoiling things (for marketing reasons) with a bass reflex port.

The key to using a sub is accurate calibration and a good bass management system.

[3rdeyeKnight]

Originally Posted by drumkideric

I have the Definitive Technology Supercube II. It is an amazing sub. It made a 100% improvement on the Dynaudio's. I got it from a High-Fi Buys in Nashville.

Thanx. I will look into.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by The Byre

You are (IMO) of course right - and you were right to get a sub.

All these pokey little nearfields are just that, pokey little nearfields. They work fine down to a certain fequency, but after about 100Hz, they rely on a bass reflex opening to simulate a larger speaker. This means that they make some sort of noise, but it is far from accurate, as the reflex opening allows the speaker driver to 'flap' and this means that the response rate is very poor.

My favorite example of this is the Mackie 824. Down to 100Hz it is a first class little speaker, but instead of doing the honest thing and cutting it off there and handing the work over to a sub, Mackie insist on spoiling things (for marketing reasons) with a bass reflex port.

The key to using a sub is accurate calibration and a good bass management system.

Well...... the 824's may rely on a bass reflex port but the lows are not the problem on them.

The problem with the 824's is the strange mid range crossover point. All in all I like the speakers and always got good results form them but I would not say that they are a "first class speaker all the way down to the lows." If anything the thing that the 824's do well is the low end, better than my S2A's anyway. What the 824's lack is the solid mids…. but I guess YMMV.

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Well...... the 824's may rely on a bass reflex port but the lows are not the problem on them.

The problem with the 824's is the strange mid range crossover point. All in all I like the speakers and always got good results form them but I would not say that they are a "first class speaker all the way down to the lows." If anything the thing that the 824's do well is the low end, better than my S2A's anyway. What the 824's lack is the solid mids…. but I guess YMMV.

Agreed.

Plus, can't you turn the bass down on the back of the 824s?

[seaneldon]

i've gotta say i never heard any reason for me to even try mixing with a sub. if i'm on a pair of $4000+ speakers, and I can't hear bass properly, it's because the room is fvcked up. plus, there's the timing issue and "can you really trust it?" and so on and so forth.

i was doing a record at deepwave once and larry suggested i turn on the JBL sub that had been sitting in the corner for a few months. it didn't really give me a clear LF picture, but it did cure my week-long constipation almost immediately. i guess that's one reason to have one handy.

[mrface2112]

Originally Posted by Protools Guy

i go to the back of my control room, where the bass loads up, to check the low end.

that's what i do too.

i find that getting the bass/kick really pumping at the listening spot leads to bass-heavy mixes. it's obvious i need more bass trapping in my room. but for now, a simple trip to the back of the room helps me get the job done just about perfectly--there's one spot in particular (about 15ft away) that has a perfect bass/mids/highs relationship. one of these days i'll fix that......but for now i've learned to work with (and around) it.


cheers,
wade

[Capstan Cappy]

a good friend of mine in germany does the same thing , having a pair of small speakers on his console, gets up and walks in a corner to check what hes doing, i told him a few times forgodsakes man go buy bigger monitors wich can do what u want! while staring at his big tannoy FSM's in the wall being silent....hint hint,

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Capstan Cappy

a good friend of mine in germany does the same thing , having a pair of small speakers on his console, gets up and walks in a corner to check what hes doing, i told him a few times forgodsakes man go buy bigger monitors wich can do what u want! while staring at his big tannoy FSM's in the wall being silent....hint hint,

Not to get into a big deal about it but getting bigger monitors is in no way going to help his situation. You gotta start with a well balanced room first. More bass from larger monitors is just going to excite the room nodes more. These same room nodes are still going to be there no matter what speakers are on the stands and the room nodes are what are causing him to not hear the bass at his mix position.....

That is a tip for the thread starter to.

Go start really reading up on the great info on Ethan's site. That is the place to start.

[Capstan Cappy]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Not to get into a big deal about it but getting bigger monitors is in no way going to help his situation. You gotta start with a well balanced room first. More bass from larger monitors is just going to excite the room nodes more. These same room nodes are still going to be there no matter what speakers are on the stands and the room nodes are what are causing him to not hear the bass at his mix position.....

That is a tip for the thread starter to.

Go start really reading up on the great info on Ethan's site. That is the place to start.

sure , my first reply on him was about the acoustics but he states he has a good room so then the discussion went on with people having small speakers with subs to correct the problem, enlarging ur conesurface will give u what u want cause u can simply go lower , sure very room has nodes but the node is not at his listening spot so wont be any problem there , right?

[Capstan Cappy]

darn those double posts :P