So much overdubbing, too little LIVE studio recordings?

[chessparov]

Personally feel that most recordings with talented singers/instrumentalists would be superior when done together in the same room, at the same time.

Should today's record industry be doing more of this?

Your thoughts/comments...

Chris

[Aud.Manipulator]

Ok, I'll bite. This forum is a twisted combination of the velvet rope and a roots tech bbs. But, opinions are cheap, so here it goes.

I'd vote for the cliched "depends on what you're doing." There's an oxymoron in your question. You're implying that a record label (producer working for a major record label?) is dealing with real artists. 99% of the time, it just isn't the case, because the public can't tell who can play well, and the record labels just want to make money. It just doesn't make sense to put money and time into capturing that perfect performance with people that suck. That being said, acts like Audio Slave, Slayer, and Medeski Martin and Wood (to name three, of course there's more) record the basic tracks live, then O/D vox and solos. But to answer the main question, should record labels (producers) step away from the piece it together process that's dominating pop music; no. The goal is to make it sound like the over processed, commercial crap that has saturated the market. Not because it's cool, not because it sounds the best, but because the A&R guy will sit on the couch and say "Yeah, that drummer slams!" And when it comes down to the recording industry, you make recordings for money. The guys with the money want to hear it a certain way. People who are good enough to play often don't have the right "look" or are to old. (not by my standards, I'm not an A&R puke.)

So, if the market turns around to embrace real music again, maybe we can go back to recording as it should be done. Until then, the "band" is the same hired guns playing on everything, and the kids fronting it can try hard not to make it suck live.

-AMgrudge

[dhughes]

I play in and record an instrumental band. Apparently there is a thing now called "Post-Rock" and we fall into that category. It is essentially rock music that focuses a great deal on shifting dynamics, and developing atmospheres and textures that grow and change subtly. The music also increases and decreases in tempo based on the interaction of the band.

I bring all this up as I can't imagine any other way to record this except for live.

My sense is that any recording that aims to capture the dynamics and emotion of a group of people interacting musically must be done live with the musicians in the same room playing off of each other.

Now a solo artist is in a different position all together. Here the artist's vision is created over time by layering different sounds and rearranging until they feel their vision is actualized.

Both seem like valid approaches with different aims.

What is of no interest to me are bands that play entirely independent of what their bandmates are doing. Here overdubbing seems to take on a different meaning. And IMHO it sucks the music dry of any emotion.

Maybe the "post rock" thing will catch on and we'll see more bands that have to (or want to) record live. I think the world would be a slightly better place.

Cheers!

[drundall]

Uhhh, that would be because most people today SUCK!

Seriously I've been jonesing to do a band live but most have trouble getting through the track without mistakes. I've been leaning more in that direction lately but it's gonna require a lot more pre production.

I think that as you get higher on the totem pole most artists want to make the most of the technology as far a layering tracks, taking time to dial in sounds, etc. They're just used to working in a certain fashion.

[joeq]

As a drummer myself I am torn between wanting the Feel and Groove of a live performance and wanting the Control and Perfection of overdubbing.

Recently I recorded a project where we did a live rhythm section (albeit to a click track) . All really good, experienced session players. On a few of the songs the bass player would ask to do "a punch". This punch turned out to be the entire tune. Then the guitarist also asked to do "a couple of punches" and ended up overdubbing almost everything as well. then the keyboard player wanted to do a punch too...

On one of the songs in question, the drummer came back the next day and rerecorded his entire drum track! In the end, that tune had only some piano and a smidge of guitar left from the original "Live" performance.

To really get the benefits of the Live tracking they probably would have needed one or two rehearsals prior to the session. What a great idea- rehearsals- except who's going to pay for that?

[Dave Martin]

Well, this morning I was part of a rhythm section doing 4 R&B songs; the artist was going to add his guitar and final vocals this evening (he did scratch vocals with us this morning).

Rhythm guitar, keys, bass and drums. the keyboard player and I fixed a couple of spots on a couple of songs. Otherwise the performances were recorded as we played them. Of course, the keyboard player and the guitar player did second passes to add instruments (it's hard to play electric and acoustic piano at the same time...). And the drummer did a percussion pass on one song.

Does this count?

[Bob Olhsson]

I think we're way off the deep end on the overdubbing thing.

Unfortunately we seem to have forgotten how to sell musicians and singers instead of dancers and models. That needs to get fixed FIRST so that ordinary people, especially teens and college students, get to experience the real thing and develop the realization that there's a lot more to music than just a bunch of posers. Kids who don't blink at paying a hundred bucks for a pair of sneakers but gripe about music being too expensive can't have been exposed to anything that was very good.

[2leod]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
Kids who don't blink at paying a hundred bucks for a pair of sneakers but gripe about music being too expensive can't have been exposed to anything that was very good.

I've never thought of it that way, but I smell truth in these words.
BTW around here a hundy was what the kids used to pay for Air-whatevers...

[chessparov]

Thanks for all the great thought provoking comments. Keep 'em coming.

Tomorrow (hopefully) when I'm over a nasty cold, will re-read this thread.

How about bringing this idea back?

I think it's smart idea for a label to have a "house band", even if it's like how the Wrecking Crew worked out in the 60's in L.A.,especially for solo artist and vocal group based acts.

Chris

[drundall]

Dave, you Nashville guys don't count.

We know that's SOP there.

[cajonezzz]

Originally posted by drundall
Dave, you Nashville guys don't count.

We know that's SOP there.

While we of course we do some stuff with tons of overdubs.....I'd say 80% of our tracks are kept as a "band ". At very least the drums are all one pass. the bass MAYBE punching a clam here and there.

But we're working with folks that can play.

I really don't mind overdubbing anything ....but drums. The guys that "replace the machine" are the worst. Cutting all your keepers to a machine and expecting the drum performance to fell better is a bitch. I have to do a lot of this type of tail chasing. Not so bad if it's playing to a loop that has some vibe to it....otherwise you have everything "done" with everyones interpretation of the feel. Yuck.

Nothing beats Rehearsing a band/rhythm section and getting it right.
That of course, is a luxury.

Even though it's Sop in Nashville, even with the best of cats playing I think some of those albums sound like really well recorded Demos.
Knocking out half an album in a day isn't always the best way to work IMO.

whatever works in the end I guess. I've slice and diced the shit out of drum tracks and loved that too.

[davemc]

Depends on the style
Even live now some of the entertainer type acts play hardly anything.

I mean a lot of the heavily autotuned pretty acts would not stand up. Funny thing is I never know what they look like when I listen on radio. More I can hear teh effected/autotuned vocals the better looking they must be . Joe blow does not care.

Its the same with movies, FX have come so far. Although a crap scfi with great effects still does not do it for me compared to old Dr. Who episodes with guys in aluminin foil playing aliens...

[The Man]

Originally posted by drundall
[B

Seriously I've been jonesing to do a band live but most have trouble getting through the track without mistakes. [/b]

Then what you need my friend, is a little thing called PATIENCE :-)

I think a struggling musician called Paul McCartney once had to do around 100 takes of a song called Blackbird before settling for one. Plus you'll really feel great when you DO nail one.

[c.dizzle]

I'm glad to see there is interest in tracking bands live!

I was kind of raised on the click track, piecemeal way of recording and thought this was the only way to do it. The more I learned and talked to people, the more I saw this was not the case. I am pining to work with bands that want to do stuff live. I feel that music really needs this right now. I was hoping that the strokes and the white stripes would cause the pendulum to swing back over to the other side but it seems that that style of production (live i mean, not lo-fi) is tied to the style.

New punk bands are the worst. "I LIKE THE FAKE SOUND," is what I hear a lot of now. they want heavy editing, lots of, ghasp, audible autotune(i.e., vocoder-like), and all the drums to be sampled. What is punk about that? At times, it really is disheartening to work with bands that are that privy to the goings of of the studio that they request what we regard as cruthches as creative or necessary to their goals. Granted this is how our art evolves, the drum machine and synths were supposed to sound like drums and horns and strings but are now lauded for their own qualitites. I'm sure ten years from now people will be looking for vintage autotune devices. Whoever did the first punch in had no idea what that would lead to, for better or worse.

However, one thing that i really believe needs to be dug up and ressurected is this live thing were talking about, be it in one room, everybody iso-ed, or a combo. I believe that with all of the technology we have available this would make for a very cool new sound. But what is most valuable about this aproach is that all production/ engineering decisions are alway being made in full context at all times. Committing would have to happen. It seems that this is way more logical when dealing with bands, the producers and engineers would be sculpting complete songs at all times. I could forsee this way as making it easier to come up with more creative records. Excuse me, not more creative, but creative in a different way.

It seems that this hacked up, tuned up, sample-riffic, machine way has been around for a while. Some may make a correlation between the downfall of the music industry, the horrible music on mtv, vh1, and clearchannel radio stations and the possibility that the aforementioned production style has anything to do with this. I wont go there. I know that when grunge was king there was much more live band stuff going on ala indie labels and steve albini and the like. Some said that music was at an all time low then. It seems lower now.

Count me in for live! this might sound crazy but sometimes it is refreshing to get to work with bands that aren't very experienced and their lack of metronome ability forces them to do stuff live. It just gets a little old when everyone just assumes that their songs will be done to a click and then hacked up.

Well, guess I need to buy more pres and converters now!

later

carl

[chessparov]

Precisely the issue!

Give the public something to "care" about again
with heart and soul.

Chris

[joeq]

Originally posted by c.dizzle


Well, guess I need to buy more pres and converters now!

[Tousana]

Sure is nice to do a band live,but that requires people that can play. That just doesn't happen that much lately,but oh when it does, what a joy. Maybe just a punch here and there and you get a track that sounds as if a group played it. Would be nice if it happened more,but you do what you have to do. That sometimes means piecing together some crap for the sake of making money for you know who,so the crap can keep on coming. And is there really any wonder why downloading and a lack of record sales is happening. I think we all know the answer. Remember when players played and singers sang!

[bassmac]

When I played in bands in the pre-digital days, it was a given you’d practice your ass off before you went into the studio. You never wanted to be the guy to blow a good live take.

Now that you can cut and paste a song together, there’s a lot less incentive for musician's and band's to nail complete song's in one take.

Advancing technology = declining musicianship.

[Tousana]

Bassmac I agree 100%. Some things about the emerging digital tenology are great,but it has made alot of people lazy. Players,singers,engineers,everybody. I whould include myself in that group from time to time as well. I think we are all guilty.

[Bob Olhsson]

The thing that has always amazed me is the fact that what it felt like to make the record usually comes right across in how listening to the record feels. That we can share that exhilaration with people is miraculous. Unfortunately when there's no exhilaration to share, THAT comes right across too. We end up with competent recordings that have nothing wrong with them at all intellectually speaking but nothing compelling about how they feel either.

[2leod]

The problem as I see it, though, is that nobody has any good places to play regularly anymore. You'd be suprised how many fairly good musicians around here end up trying to eke out a living playing to twelve seasoned drinkers at the Legion hall for 75 bucks a night. Playing night after night in the folks garage don't cut it... been there, done that. We all have to get off the couch, step outside and listen to live bands again. It's no wonder some bands can't make it once all the way through a tune...

[chessparov]

Three (finished) tracks within 4 hours.
Entire album done within 4 days, without pitch correction. No exceptions.

What a novel idea !

Chris

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by 2leod
The problem as I see it, though, is that nobody has any good places to play regularly anymore. ...

A MAJOR problem and one much bigger than the consolidation of the major labels.

[Tousana]

Another good point,there aren't many places to play and the ones that there are it seems sometimes,it's not how good you are but who you know. On the subject of playing,whats with the cover bands? Let's save that for the high school dance. I personally want to here some original music,or if you're doing a cover please try to do your own arrangement. Oh that takes talent,and we've already talked about that and the lack there of. Lets hope we get back to real music with some real feeling.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by Tousana
...there aren't many places to play and the ones that there are it seems sometimes,it's not how good you are but who you know....

If you look deeper, it's really often about how much you're willing to pay...

[RichT]

Hi, my name's RichT and I'm a bottom feeder - I record indie records and newbies for a 'living'. I thought I'd offer my point of view.

Being a kid of the digital age, maybe even the 'perfection age', I think even the best bands I have through our doors aren't good enough to record 'live'.

Great bands but not good enough to make the recording they want to make. To put it another way, the recording they NEED to make to compete with the other bands in the industry.

At this level, tracking and spending time on each part is the easiest way to achieve a professional sound even if the musicians themselves aren't professionals.

As an aside I have a 7 piece Jazz band in on Thursday who are recording everything (inc. Vocals) live. I have recorded them before and they are fantastic musicians. Doing it purely for the music.

But they are rare amongst the wannabee Blink 182s and Britney Spears.

When did people get so caught up in being famous rather than just making music?

[2leod]

Originally posted by RichT
When did people get so caught up in being famous rather than just making music?

When? I'd say it was on August 1, 1981, when the world was first seduced by the babes and Bling Bling of MTV. Some of us may need to fall on our knees and repent of that...

[sonic dogg]

Making music does not appear to be what this industry is about anymore.Oh sure there's music...kinda like the prize in the box of Crack-r-Jacks.The whole point being to sell the stale sugered popcorn and theres something EXTRA if you buy it.

Well to me the Music has become the extra.I never had a doubt that a huge majority of the AE's,studio owners/operators here and on other BB's would all love to start making MUSIC the way it was...ie having real musicians playing real songs for comsumption by real people really interested in what songwriters and instrumentalists have to say.

How could we,as a community, make this happen? Indie Labels?Not enough clout to clear the airwaves of the sales force picking the sounds we want to hear while comtemplating our next purchase.How about we all write Paul Allen a letter....hes a music freak....ask him to buy ALL the radio stations in the country and make half of em non-commercial entities...just music...and then we'll see whats been missing from the airplay lists.

We record everything here live.Theres nothing like the feel of the musicians interplay.Its what makes it a song, in my book.Sure you can go back and fix things a bit, but the point is to get across the emotion that got the song written in the first place.I even like riding fader(ala Bob Ohlsson) on a vocal....no machines just me and the singer....Sounds a lot purer.A couple times through and there it is.All the notes with meaning.