Upgrade from DA-7 to Multichannel Pre+Converter

[Tibbon]

There's much more to a device than the Op-amps, or convertors chips that the unit uses.
On a rather obvious level, an LM-324 can be used in almost any basic circuit, but depending on the circuit design there can be MANY difference sounds (or non-audio uses) of the chip.

Chips are cheap. Design is the key and how you use them.

[Christof]

Maybe I have focused my thread too much on the specs - thats not what I intended to do. But it seems quite obvious, that the interfaces get better as there are better converter-chips produced. Of course its also obvious, that there are high end designs that spec quite similar but sound totally different compared to the low cost stuff.

At the time it came out, the DA-7 had one of the best converters available (high end gear not taken into account) and - considering its age and the money you would have to pay for getting one used - its even not too bad nowadays, especially if you think of it as a 16-channel A/D with 16 Mic-Pres and a fader-controller (I managed to get it working for my cubase SX in banks of 16 faders - not only HUI-protocol).

But - of course its old technology and the development has been going further.
So I'm thinking of selling this workhorse and getting something new.

As I will need a more portable setup, it would be great, if I won't need to carry around this 23kg(51lbs) desk, just because I want to record 8 tracks.

I really like the RME-stuff, because of their drivers (both stability and lo latency) and I never had any issue with the Digiface (3x ADAT In/Out + SPDIF + 2x Analog Out) I have the DA7 connected to. One more thing I really like is the "Totalizer" providing an 31-Band Analyzer, a very good peakmeter (even multichannel, if you'd need it) and a real good phase-meter (goniometer). And using their Totalmix-DSP-mixer I could always provide foldback-sends without any latency.

I like to be flexible though, so firewire could be a better option compared to the PCI/PCMCIA-cards I'm using now. BUT those are very stable (not a glitch) and I'm in doubt that a firewire-solution would be as good as that.

So I'm thinking about getting new pre/converters to use those together with my Digiface. This will limit me to 48kHz most of the time (SMUX might be an option for up to 12 channels) but that won't bother me too much.

What I'm trying to find out now is: Are the available multichannel (most of the time 8 channels a unit) Pres/converters significantly better than my old DA-7? Or may it even be getting worse than that? I'm not going high-end - so PrismSound, Digitalaudio (DAD) AX24 or Apogee... won't be an option for me.

8-channel Pres/Converters that come into my mind are the M-Audio Octane, the Presonus Digimax and the Behringer ADA-8000 (not really prefering this one though). The Audient ASP 008 has been recommended here - but that would be too expensive for my budget.

I could also buy something like the Focusrite Saffire Pro 26 I/O (though I don't like the dsp-mixers user interface) or the Presonus Firestudio, as they can route their A/D to the ADAT-outputs and I could use those just as frontend for my Digiface (providing the opportunity using it with firewire sometimes).

So there would be many possible variations. Just to name a few:

A) Digiface + Octane + Saffire Pro (maybe a Behringer ADA-8000 to be able to use 24 channels, just in case...)
I would lose the fader-control, gaining flexibility and quality (?)

B) Digiface + 2x Octane + Behringer (nearly same as above)

C) Just adding an Octane to my setup for higher quality and keeping the DA-7 for the rest - if its not really worse compared to the newer interfaces.

One thing to think about: Wouldn't there be considerable phase-issues between different interfaces ?

OR D) I might just be getting a really good 2-channel converter connected to the SPDIF (also AES/EBU) of my Digiface and keeping the rest as it is.

I would have to keep the price low though. I might try to get a used Apogee Rosetta (the old series). I might use an EMU 1616m (if it would be possible to use the MicroDeck standalone and route the inputs to the SPDIF).

I'm using my stuff for very different things: Recording my own stuff, mostly just one or two tracks at a time. Recording Choirs/Ensembles with just 2 mics. Recording bands live (not at concerts though) - I will record BigBands in the future.

So what would you recommend?

[Christof]

No one else? Is this the wrong forum to ask?

If you don't know the DA-7, what do you think about the different interfaces I've taken into account?

[d. gauss]

i have a da7. now all i use it for is the volume knob to the monitors and the midi faders for mixing.

i used to use the faders to control nuendo much like you do, but i've since switched to reaper and can only get 8 going instead of 16 so far

anyhoo, as to your question:

for remote stuff i either use an echo audiofire8 via firewire into a laptop with outboard pres (or sometimes the built in pres), or for more channels, a mackie onyx 1620 via firewire into the laptop with the onyx pres. both setups work very well.

in the studio, i use an alesis HD24 for 24 channels of converters via lightpipe right into the PC.

-d. gauss

[John Suitcase]

When you say "BigBands" are you talking about 40's style jazz ensembles?

It sounds like you want to be able to take a 2 channel recorder to remote gigs?

If that's the case, I think going for something like the Apogee would be good, or you could pick up something like the Metric Halo unit (if you're mac), just to have a few extra preamps. I wouldn't try to build a whole remote rig, unless you're planning to track full bands on location. Otherwise, having 2-4 channels of top quality preamps and A/D would suit you much better.

I'd look at something like a Grace or DAV preamp (for the classical stuff, clarity, etc) and maybe a used Apogee or Lavry 2 channel unit.

Keep the DA7 for studio stuff. It's very workable and sounds as good as most of the lower end stuff you've listed, IMHO.

[Christof]

@d.gauss: In the studio I use the DA7 the same way you do. But only because I do mainly mixdowns here and mix ITB.

Do you have as many outboard-pres to use all 24 channels on your HD-24?
Is this the XR-version?

@John Suitcase: If I say "BigBand" I mean the type of ensemble - not necessarily the sound of the 40s though. I've done recordings with just a 2-mic setup, but I've also done a multimic-setup with mics for each section + more mics for rhythm section and soloists. (I've been doing that while being a student and doing a recording with the universitys BigBand and Barbara Thompson as guest-soloist - that has been my first BigBand-reording I did on my own... went quite good, though I'd do some things different today...)

So I will need a flexible setup with:
2 channels with the best quality I can buy (considering my budget)
16 channels with real good pre/converters (no high grade though)
maybe 8 more channels - just in case...
Would be great, if I could do 2 or 8 channels in 96k though...

Metric Halo won't work for me, as I'm on the PC side. That's one of the rare times I regret...

Considering Preamps, I have the following:
- 2x TAB V-72
- 2x ADT 5MT-Series Standard-Channel (needs to be racked)
- 2Ch. M-Audio DMP-2 (probably using SSM-2017 chip)

I have very decent mics (including Schoeps, old Sennheiser MKHs...) but I may need a better preamp. The DAV has been recommended from very different sides lately. Seems to be very good one and not too pricey.

Something like a V-276 would be too colored, I guess?

I want to keep the DA7 - has been a good workhorse all the time.
But maybe I need to sell it, just for the benefit of my budget...

[garysjo]

I am in the same situation as you. I think you will have to spend some real $$ to accomplish what you want. next stepup in IMHO is Apogee, Benchmark, etc. which is a significant investment over what the DA-7 is worth. It does sound quite good, neutral, clear, etc. Yeh, I'm with ya, heavy when you only need to do a choir. I'm still lugging it around not being able to swing the price of a significant sound upgrade at this point. If you want to make a move purely for logistical convenience, try some of the pre/ad's that you've mentioned although i'd be surprised if you found any of them to be equal to, or an upgrade to the DA-7.

[Christof]

@garysjo: What you said is just about the same what I'm more and more thinking about. I will probably buy the M-Audio Octane used (just got the opportunity to buy one) and add a higher grade 2-Channel-A/D like the old Apogee Rosetta later. I'm still thinking about the Emu 1616m - this should also be a kind of upgrade to what I have and I could use it with my Laptop for recordings up to 14 channels (6 analog In, 2 of those with preamp, 8 ADAT In from the Octane).