Apogee/Symphony Performance Compared to Protools HD

[barryjohns]

I want to make sure I understand this. This is not an Apogee/Symphony vs. Protools HD thread. I know they both have their pros and con’s. What I want is some basic comparisons. The questions are in regards to Apoggee/Sypmphony:

1. Is the latency in the recording as close as they say, if there is a difference, is it negligible?

2. With Symphony, how do the advertised latency relate to the software buffer size? Natively, the hardware buffer is directly related to the audible latency. So, I have read that the lowest workable buffer setting in Logic the average person is getting is 64. How does 64 samples correlate to the advertised latency in milliseconds?

3. Can I put a reverb plugin on a track and record a vocal while monitoring like you can in protools? Is there any limit to the amount of plugins that would work fine? I know plugs that cause significant latency (UAD/Powercore/Liquid Mix, etc) will not work in this situation.

Other than available plugins, Industry Standard, and workflow, will Symphony enable me to:

1. Record with no latency, without having to use some other software application like (RME’s Totalmix or Motu’s Cuemix)
2. Record with plugins while monitoring the plugins.
3. Use outboard analog gear in real-time with no latency.

Take the desired software out of the equation; are they basically the same except one has DSP Processing power for plugins?

[midnightsun]

What I am about to say pertains to a G5 Quad, Logic Pro, Symphony.
-Maestro is Apogees routing and monitoring software. When monitoring through this there is virtually no latency. Maestro is similar to Motu's Cue Mix.
-If I am monitoring realtime out from Logic Pro there is latency that I can't live with.
-My solutions are as follows
A. Monitor dry from Maestro
B. For a Reverb Mix a dry signal from Maestro with a wet reverb signal from Logic Pro. This works great if I want to monitor with reverb.
C. Monitor analog and use a Lexicon outboard reverb.

I have heard that the Intel Mac has less latency. None of this is an issue for me because I usually monitor analog before conversion.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by midnightsun

None of this is an issue for me because I usually monitor analog before conversion.

Curious.....how do you punch in? In other words, how you do accomplish "auto input" when punching in?

[Sergievsky]

Strange...I'm using DP and monitoring through it and latency isn't a problem at all. Buffer is at 64 (no 32 in dp that I can see). That's the main reason I got Symphony in the first place, is to not have to go through cuemix or any such app. I run verb as on an aux track when tracking. This on a PPC Quad G5.

[midnightsun]

Originally Posted by drBill

Curious.....how do you punch in? In other words, how you do accomplish "auto input" when punching in?

As I understand it, latency and track misalignment are related but not the synonomous. I think that most would agree that latency is the perceived delay when monitoring realtime and misalignment is the amount of correction necessary to bring the track perfectly inline.

I have determined, almost to the sample, the amount of misalignment I have in my system and I enter this value in Logic Pro Preferences and the result is all of my tracks are perfectly aligned when I overdub or punch in. I suspect that this issue has to be handled differently for different platforms. I am only familiar with Logic Pro.

I think that my initial distaste for digital recording with a DAW came from minute misalignment proplems that slippled by me. It took a while for me to grasp this. Perhaps platforms other than Logic allow you to never give it a thought. Again, I only know Logic.

[midnightsun]

Originally Posted by Sergievsky

Strange...I'm using DP and monitoring through it and latency isn't a problem at all. Buffer is at 64 (no 32 in dp that I can see). That's the main reason I got Symphony in the first place, is to not have to go through cuemix or any such app. I run verb as on an aux track when tracking. This on a PPC Quad G5.

Perhaps Logic is more taxing than DP. We know that no platform has zero latency, not even analog. It is a matter of when it starts to bother us realtime. Track misalignment is another issue and I would want to know when I am punching in or overdubbing that my tracks were dead on. I would want to measure this and not rely on my ear or perception.

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by midnightsun

What I am about to say pertains to a G5 Quad, Logic Pro, Symphony.
-Maestro is Apogees routing and monitoring software. When monitoring through this there is virtually no latency. Maestro is similar to Motu's Cue Mix.
-If I am monitoring realtime out from Logic Pro there is latency that I can't live with.
-My solutions are as follows
A. Monitor dry from Maestro
B. For a Reverb Mix a dry signal from Maestro with a wet reverb signal from Logic Pro. This works great if I want to monitor with reverb.
C. Monitor analog and use a Lexicon outboard reverb.

I have heard that the Intel Mac has less latency. None of this is an issue for me because I usually monitor analog before conversion.

When you say "virtually no latency", to me that stills says, in the real world you have to workaround the latency issue.
Even with a very, very fast computer. If you had a standard G5 2.0, would you say that you would have a much greater problem with latency?

So when you a monitoring 10 or 12 recorded tracks, how much latency do you have?

[midnightsun]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

When you say "virtually no latency", to me that stills says, in the real world you have to workaround the latency issue.
Even with a very, very fast computer. If you had a standard G5 2.0, would you say that you would have a much greater problem with latency?

So when you a monitoring 10 or 12 recorded tracks, how much latency do you have?

I am not trying to be overly complex but exactly what do you mean by latency-- in my statement you quote I was referring to perceived delay while monitoring and not track misalignment. This is not a moot point, at least with Logic.

[barryjohns]

I think the question is, let's say you've got 12 tracks already recorded, you've got some plugs on those tracks. You are overdubbing another track, how much audible latency is there while tracking?

Also I'm going to piggyback on this question as well. If you have to monitor through maestro, then how is using this system any different than using RME FF's and/or Motu gear using RME's Totalmix and/or Motu's Cuemix, other than the obvious, being able to use Apogee Converters?

[RWhite]

I don't own the Syphony/Logic set up but I will share what I experienced at a recent demo but on by Apogee and Apple.

Using a Mac Pro (dual 3, I believe), which is the system that they are touting as having the lowest latency as any native system, there was no perceptable latency while doing overdubs.

A session was run with a large track count and no shortage of plug-ins being used. We were overdubbing guitar parts that also had plug-ins on it's track (amp simulator, delay, reverb) and there was no latency. I played the guitar myself and it sounded like it was coming out of my amp.

They also played back another session with over a hundred reberb plug-ins and the system didn't hitch. I don't remember the details as far as sample rate and actual track count, but I left with the impression that the system had plenty of power to do what ever you threw at it.

I'm still holding out for Pro Tools HD becuase that's what I know, but this Logic system seemed equally as powerful and functional in the short time that I experienced it.

Obviously, if you go Native then your host computer is the most inportant part of the chain, so I would go with the fastest Mac Pro that I could afford and forget about the G5's entirely.

[Sergievsky]

Originally Posted by barryjohns

I think the question is, let's say you've got 12 tracks already recorded, you've got some plugs on those tracks. You are overdubbing another track, how much audible latency is there while tracking?

Also I'm going to piggyback on this question as well. If you have to monitor through maestro, then how is using this system any different than using RME FF's and/or Motu gear using RME's Totalmix and/or Motu's Cuemix, other than the obvious, being able to use Apogee Converters?

I had about 24 tracks of drums, guitars, and bass, though only a couple plugs active, but latency was no problem at all, all monitoring through the sequencer (DP). I'm sure I could probably measure some, but it didn't bother the players and didn't bother me, so why bother?

I did read that review on Symphony about monitoring through Maestro for some benefit or other. Haven't had time to mess around though. Anyway, I don't exactly know what the difference is between my system and, say, a motu/rme equipped superfast macintel that lets you set buffers so low latency is no longer a problem. Maybe its when you start recording with a bunch of plugs...with Symphony it still shouldn't be a problem. I'll start fooling around after I get some sleep. I do have a Motu setup as well (though only on a dualG5).

Anybody else with Symphony? Maybe there will be more since they dropped the price of the card to $795.. I mean ...uh, nah, I meant

[Tony Shepperd]

So a new Intel Mac is $2499
add to that 4 GB of RAM $1099
OTD your're looking at $4000

Then add to that the Apogee's Emsemble with Symphony around $2500
New software for the Intel (all new plugins) to switch over what I have from Pro Tools to the Emsemble.

Isn't that in the same ballpark of an HD3 Accel system?

[Schmacko]

So a new Intel Mac is $2499
add to that 4 GB of RAM $1099
OTD your're looking at $4000

Then add to that the Apogee's Emsemble with Symphony around $2500
New software for the Intel (all new plugins) to switch over what I have from Pro Tools to the Emsemble.

Isn't that in the same ballpark of an HD3 Accel system?

I don't know about that.

Let's compare buying a whole new Mac based 8x8io HD3 setup vs Symphony:

HD3 PCIe:

- Mac Pro 2.66ghz = $2499
- additional 4gb RAM = $800 (www.ramjet.com - Apple spec'd + lifetime warranty)
- Pro Tools HD3 PCIe system with (1) 192 i/o = $13,000

= $16,299.00 before tax

Symphony PCIe:

- Mac Pro 2.66ghz = $2499
- additional 4gb RAM = $800 (www.ramjet.com - Apple spec'd + lifetime warranty)
- (1) Apogee Rosetta 800 + X-Symphony card = $2850
- (1) Apogee Symphony PCIe card = $720
- (1) copy of Logic Pro 7 = $1000

= $7,869.00 before tax

So, even adding the $1k Logic software package, the Symphony system with equivalent computer hardware is roughly 1/2 the cost of HD3.

[Tony Shepperd]

I think you are using List Prices for Pro Tools.

Street Price is more like:
HD3 Accel PCI $10,000 OTD
192 $2000
Total price $12,000
Run on your current G4 or G5 (no computer upgrade necessary).

IMO, you also get great support from Digidesign.
48 bit fixed point processing, plus RTAS.
And a wide variety of plugins.

Does it still cost more than native? Yes.
Double the price of a Native system though? No.

Also with Apple, where is the support for Logic.
Ever since Apple bought Logic, support has disappeared.

[chrisrulesmore]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

I think you are using List Prices for Pro Tools.

Street Price is more like:
HD3 Accel PCI $10,000 OTD
192 $2000
Total price $12,000
Run on your current G4 or G5 (no computer upgrade necessary).

IMO, you also get great support from Digidesign.
48 bit fixed point processing, plus RTAS.
And a wide variety of plugins.

Does it still cost more than native? Yes.
Double the price of a Native system though? No.

Also with Apple, where is the support for Logic.
Ever since Apple bought Logic, support has disappeared.

FYI...the Apogee Symphony system can be used with any DAW with the exception of Pro Tools.

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by chrisrulesmore

FYI...the Apogee Symphony system can be used with any DAW with the exception of Pro Tools.

I am aware of that, but the example Schmacko was using was Logic.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

I think you are using List Prices for Pro Tools.

Street Price is more like:
HD3 Accel PCI $10,000 OTD
192 $2000
Total price $12,000
Run on your current G4 or G5 (no computer upgrade necessary).

IMO, you also get great support from Digidesign.
48 bit fixed point processing, plus RTAS.
And a wide variety of plugins.

Does it still cost more than native? Yes.
Double the price of a Native system though? No.

Also with Apple, where is the support for Logic.
Ever since Apple bought Logic, support has disappeared.

Hi Tony,

Don't forget in this calculation that a Mac Pro 2.6 is not a HD3 but more like a HD8 system , if you go off by that as your starting figure the P.Tools system will cost you more like 25-30k, as apposed to roughly 8k for the Logic/Symphony combo .....

A far as support , you have the Apogee side of things , support is excellent , Logic/Apple have not the great support they had prior to Logic being bought out but the fact they are made by the same company ensures they play well together and problems are at a minimum from the get go.....

Maybe someone with the actual rig being discussed can chime in as to how it all integrates and the stability of it, i'm sure quite a few people making upgrades would be interested ......

Cheers

[Schmacko]

Street Price is more like:
HD3 Accel PCI $10,000 OTD
192 $2000
Total price $12,000

$12k or $13k for the HD setup isn't that big of a difference - it's still a lot ;p

Run on your current G4 or G5 (no computer upgrade necessary).

Symphony is also available for PCIx, so G5 users wouldn't have to upgrade either.

Also with Apple, where is the support for Logic.
Ever since Apple bought Logic, support has disappeared.

It's true, Digidesign does offer telephone tech support at no cost for systems under warranty; however, I never found them to be very helpful, or available very often.

48 bit fixed point processing, plus RTAS.
And a wide variety of plugins.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been any substantiated evidence that a 48bit fixed-point mix engine provides better results than a 32bit floating-point mix engine. As for plugins, Logic includes quite a package of plugs and VI's right out of the box.

It should also be mentioned that Symphony will work with any Core Audio app, while the only other other software which integrates with HD hardware is...Logic! And, again, another advantage to the 8x8 i/o (or even 16x16)Symphony setup is that it leaves 2 PCI slots open.

Anyway, it's obvious I'm no longer a fan of Digidesign. Also, Symphony and Mac Pro's are not yet even a year old. In a year from now, we'll have a better idea of how the Symphony system performs in professional environments as more professionals adopt it. It's nice to know that high performance native options are available and affordable, though.

[Duardo]

Don't forget in this calculation that a Mac Pro 2.6 is not a HD3 but more like a HD8 system , if you go off by that as your starting figure the P.Tools system will cost you more like 25-30k, as apposed to roughly 8k for the Logic/Symphony combo .....

That's not quite an accurate statement, as with the HD system you still have all of the Mac's horsepower to run native plugins as well, so if the 2.66 GHz MacPro is the equivalent of an HD8 system then adding an HD3 system to it gives you the equivalent of an HD11...

I am curious, though about tracking, specifially with, say, EQ and compression on the tracks you're recording on...for those recording on a MacPro, is latency a problem in that case?

-Duardo

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

Hi Tony,

Don't forget in this calculation that a Mac Pro 2.6 is not a HD3 but more like a HD8 system , if you go off by that as your starting figure the P.Tools system will cost you more like 25-30k, as opposed to roughly 8k for the Logic/Symphony combo .....

Right... except that I wouldn't buy an HD 8.
I'm very comfortable with the power of an HD3 Accel. I realize when they come out with the 8 processor Macintels it's even more power.
FINE, I got that.

I don't want to buy a new computer right now to make this work.
I have a Dual G5 2.5 GHz. It suit's me just fine.

Ultimately, I need to know (for my own edification), if a new computer is a must, then clearly my cost will jump $4000.

I guess from my stand point if the price were 3 times more, I could see PT being prohibitive.
But at this point, for me at least, the cost are less than a 1/3 greater to run PT over the Logic/Symphony.

And that number in a pro environment is acceptable to me.

[midnightsun]

Originally Posted by RWhite

I don't own the Syphony/Logic set up but I will share what I experienced at a recent demo but on by Apogee and Apple.

Using a Mac Pro (dual 3, I believe), which is the system that they are touting as having the lowest latency as any native system, there was no perceptable latency while doing overdubs.

Obviously, if you go Native then your host computer is the most inportant part of the chain, so I would go with the fastest Mac Pro that I could afford and forget about the G5's entirely.

I would agree that one should forget about purchasing a G5 but if one has a G5 that works there is no reason to step up to a Mac Pro. Instead, buy an analog front end that will always have virtually zero latency. If one really wants to be precise track misalignment has to be taken into account with a G5 or a Mac Pro. Track misalighment is simply the offset between Track A & Track B, if Track B is an AD recording from a direct cable out of a DA from Track A. On the other hand this small number, less than 1/2 msec maynot be important for some.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by Duardo

That's not quite an accurate statement, as with the HD system you still have all of the Mac's horsepower to run native plugins as well, so if the 2.66 GHz MacPro is the equivalent of an HD8 system then adding an HD3 system to it gives you the equivalent of an HD11...

I am curious, though about tracking, specifially with, say, EQ and compression on the tracks you're recording on...for those recording on a MacPro, is latency a problem in that case?

-Duardo

Yes that is true , but if i can get a Logic/Mac/Symphony combo for around 6.5-7k street price to be the equivalent of a HD8 why would i spend another 5k on more peripherals over buying some great plugs and sound libraries ? I'm talking from the position or someone wanting a great rig and not the need to be industry compliant or even just a long time P.Tools user who just loves the plaform ....

Then there is the question of routing non DSP based effects in P.Tools , not all combinations are available unless something has changed in the last year or two ...

From what i understand , a Rossetta 800 into a Symphony card at a buffer setting of 32 will yield you comparable latency to P.Tools at 96k , also comparable at 44.1k...

Extremely low buffer settings will require a Mac Pro of some type .....

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Right... except that I wouldn't buy an HD 8.
I'm very comfortable with the power of an HD3 Accel. I realize when they come out with the 8 processor Macintels it's even more power.
FINE, I got that.

I don't want to buy a new computer right now to make this work.
I have a Dual G5 2.5 GHz. It suit's me just fine.

Ultimately, I need to know (for my own edification), if a new computer is a must, then clearly my cost will jump $4000.

I guess from my stand point if the price were 3 times more, I could see PT being prohibitive.
But at this point, for me at least, the cost are less than a 1/3 greater to run PT over the Logic/Symphony.

And that number in a pro environment is acceptable to me.

As others have pointed out Symphony is available for G5 macs as well , although a Mac Pro is best for the low buffer settings ....

I get and understand your position Tony but i am not talking about you nor me for that matter , your system may well do what you want and thats fantastic .....

But for those people making a choice that cost difference is huge in many respects and especially greater if they are producer/composers .....

Ever gowing sample libararies , softsynths that require serious grunt are forcing people to buy the lastest greatest Mac , their old Mac running P.Tools HD3 just aint cutting it , most often these libararies want 1gig or ram and some serious cpu resources to run , for these people IMO the choice is obvious , you want to run countless Audio tracks, Synths,Libraries and plugs all at the same time the lastest Mac becomes the desired instrument......and along with that they can get comparable performance to P.Tools with a X/Symphony system , and dare i say better sounding converters IMO....

As far as compatabilty $400 for a Mbox 2 mini would take care of that......and they still get all this for 5-6k less

[FFTT]

Tony, If at all possible, I would hold your horses for the moment to see what happens
shortly with the Quad Core machines and hopefully Logic 8.

With either DAW on your current machine, you're stuck with PCI-X expansion and
the well documented problems of the G5 2.5 liquid cooling system.

PCI-e is already well established as the new expansion architecture, so investing heavily
in PCI-X expansion hardware at this point simply doesn't make sense.

While you may not need a Dual Quad Mac Pro, it's a good bet that you'll save nearly
2/3 of the cost of your RAM once Apple puts the 2.66 Mac Pro's on closeout pricing.

[pixelhead]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

I think you are using List Prices for Pro Tools.

Street Price is more like:
HD3 Accel PCI $10,000 OTD
192 $2000
Total price $12,000
.

Hey Tony, Where do I find an HD rig at that price. I called 4 dealers for an HD3 system and it was closer to 16k. and that was with 8 I/O.

I will admit I am using the Symphony card with 3 Rosetta 800's and lovin every min. of it. But I have been getting some more projects in PT so I am looking to maybe add a second sytem to my room and have both.

Thanks

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

I think you are using List Prices for Pro Tools.

Street Price is more like:
HD3 Accel PCI $10,000 OTD
192 $2000
Total price $12,000
Run on your current G4 or G5 (no computer upgrade necessary).

(snip)....

Huh?

where?

who?

[thenoiseflower]

we paid 9300 for hd3 PCI 2 yrs ago.

granted, it was part of a larger order...

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

I think you are using List Prices for Pro Tools.

Street Price is more like:
HD3 Accel PCI $10,000 OTD
192 $2000
Total price $12,000

(snip)....

I should clarify

the last time I checked, the absolute lowest prices anywhere I could find was:

HD3 Accel PCI system - $10,300
Digi 192 = $2,900
cables? $300 ish

total = $13,500 plus tax.

[midnightsun]

I don't want to sound like I am grinding a axe or whipping a dead horse but think that as we discuss "performance" the term "latency" is being used to mean both perceived delay while monitoring and (different but related) track misalignment.

If you hang with me for a minute I'll explain some precise, repeatable, controlled studies I have done on my G5 Quad, 4.5G RAM, running Logic Pro 7.

1. If I track and monitor THOUGH Logic Pro, (i.e. analog audio signal, AD converter, Logic Pro Processing, DA converter, analog monitor) there is LATENCY that is perceivable. Furthermore, this LATENCY worsens or changes as the processor is taxed and as buffer is increased. Having a Mac Pro clearly would improve this LATENCY problem; however, LATENCY will still be variable but improved. It is this VARIABLE LATENCY that drives be bonkers and I just can't stand.

2. Track MISALIGNMENT is not variable with respect to processor load nor buffer size. When I did my measurements I made sure that "Plug in Delay Compensation" under Logic Preferences was NOT turned off. Again TRACK MISALIGNMENT only means that if a track previously recorded into Logic is converted DA, this analog signal is directly connected to an AD converter and recorded to a new track-- The difference in timing, or the offset between the new and the old track is my definition TRACK MISALIGNMENT. This number is small but important. Even if my perception tells me that the DELAY is "hardly there" it can introduce phase issues at certain frequencies. Therefore, I want my new tracks to be dead on with my origional tracks for bounces and overdubs. Logic Pro Preferences adjust for this. This is an increment in samples and should be input as a negative number. If one has precisely calculated or measured the THE TRACK MISALIGNMENT, that is all she wrote--- done. No matter how much the processor is taxed or the buffer is increased the old and the new tracks will be perfectly aligned. I know that some readers will doubt this and so did I but I've repeated this study and I'm convinced. It was interesting to measure that if I changed sample rate the TRACK MISALIGNMENT changes. Notice I have not said anything about MONITOR LATENCY-- that is the issue above #1.

Here is what all of this means to me-- I can't stand MONITOR LATENCY during tracking so I avoid monitoring a new track down stream from Logic Pro. This is easy-- either monitor the new tracks up front analog or through Maestro (The Monitoring Latency of Maestro is not zero but is a drop in the bucket when compared to Monitoring down stream of Logic and seems not to be variable). I keep my buffer set high and I have no latency or misaliggnment problems and the system has more processing power than I need. I know delay compensation numbers for whatever sample rate I am working at. In the end all that really matters is that none of my tracks are misaligned and that I not get annoyed with perceived latency. If track alignnment is perfect, latency imperceivable, and plugins are running smoothly then a faster processor for the most part only makes housekeeping faster and doesn't translate into better quality music. Of course, I would rather have the fastest processor on the planet but my music quality and creatvity are going to be more improved with additional preamps, compressors, etc rather than a new CPU every year.

[Tony Shepperd]

I have two friends who waited all quarter long to buy their HD rigs and for a good reason.
Like any good deal, they waited until the last fiscal week of a quarter especially the end of the year.
Trust me you will ALWAYS get a killer price, particularly in a big competitive city.
And the more you buy the more they throw in.