console's, mixers, API 500 series format?

[pan60]

what is needed, were do we the people, the users, what do we want to see happen with this format in the future.
well that is the question.
i have been in contact with many 500 form gear manufactures and the time is now, we have pre's, eq's, and comps, let's take the next step and build our consoles.
i do not care, nor do i need pre's or dynamics.
i need plumbing, expandability, quality service, and a price i can afford.
their is no need to stick with a bucket, ( rack lunchbox the part the 500 form goes in ) that follows the 500 form size at this point.
the first company that delivers at a price the end user can afford will be the leader in this new market.
so, let's talk about a bucket that hold's aux's and bussing assignments.
a bucket that will hold a fader.
or maybe both in one bucket.
and a bucket that is our master section.
so the price of admission is the master and a bucket for busing, and one for faders, ( or maybe they are one and the same ) one card and a fader now we are in
another topic is power supplies.
i would like to see one power supply capable of handling the entire system as well as multiple racks.
having had a few chat's with several of our prominent manufactures here, many prospects have come up.
i do hope some will chime in and help define their views as they can do so much better then i could ever do at getting their points across.
every thing needs to drop into a standard 19'' rack.
now i can custom build my console to fit me.
my favorite pre's from one or many different maker's eq's, comps.
drop it all in a 19'' rack or in some studio furniture or build my own desk, i love it!
so what do we need for bussing?
how many auxs must we have, four, six, eight?
how many busses, four, eight, or unlimited by our budget?
what do we expect the master section to be.
so to all the 500 form slutz its time to chime in and be heard

[Reptil]

very good idea.
transformer balanced everything?
or input/output desk only?

devil's advocate:
Why would you want another frame size mini console when there is already ADT, Tonelux, SSL that make modular mixers? You can combine these with the lunchbox format?
why don't these manufacturers come together and create a standard?
Different ideas about size, power, image? Product differentation?
the api alliance is cool, but does it mean, they'll go for faders again? Isn't boutique stuff more interesting to sell, because of DAW volume and pan control?

I would LOVE to see an API console, or Portico with 500 slots.

[beechstudio]

I heard a rumour last year that Paul Wolf was developing an adapter that would allow 500 series modules to work in his Tonelux frame. I don't know if this was credible info, or if so, where Paul is in this development. But, I'm with you Pan.......this is definately the next step in Evolution for the 500 format!

[pan60]

Originally Posted by Reptil

very good idea.
transformer balanced everything?
or input/output desk only?

on everything i feel

Originally Posted by Reptil

devil's advocate:
Why would you want another frame size

you need another frame because the 500 form is to limited for the purpose of multiple bussing.
yes their are a few things that will work out their, but what do you want?
their are lots of consoles out their already but their is always something else.
if the perfict solution for verey one already exsists then their will never be a need to make anything else

Originally Posted by Reptil

why don't these manufacturers come together and create a standard?
Different ideas about size, power, image? Product differentation?
the api alliance is cool, but does it mean, they'll go for faders again? Isn't boutique stuff more interesting to sell, because of DAW volume and pan control?

I would LOVE to see an API console, or Portico with 500 slots.

i think API will have a console but not every one can pony up for a console, or some of the other manufactures solutions for that matter, that can be a lot of bucks.
attenuation in a 500 form rack is a waist of limited acreage.
why loose a slot for attenuation that needs no power.
the metal alone is cheap so get a bucket and add as many attenuators as you want or need.
that would be more cost effective then loosing a slot in your valuable 500 series rack.
and maybe the attenuation is not passive?
that is the point of this thread

[Reptil]

mmm yes, I get your point, it sure sounds exciting, there are a lot of ppl. who want small frame, reliable consoles, with options.. and lunchboxes grow and grow, and then they grow up and the modules want a console....

eeeeh just a thought, why would the Speck not be a good idea?
he's in the 500 boat already...
maybe making a 500 lilo as we speak

[Samc]

Originally Posted by pan60

the first company that delivers at a price the end user can afford will be the leader in this new market.

What is this magic price pray tell?

Do you realise that all the things you're asking for already exist? I'm really curious about this because a lot of manufacturers have designed and produced several types of modular systems...some were even designed with the help of you guys right here on this forum.

I guess what you guys really need are custom built systems with all the goodies ..........for free.

[pan60]

Originally Posted by Samc

What is this magic price pray tell?

you tell me!!!

Originally Posted by Samc

Do you realise that all the things you're asking for already exist? I'm really curious about this because a lot of manufacturers have designed and produced several types of modular systems...some were even designed with the help of you guys right here on this forum.

their are lots of gear on the market but that is not the top here

Originally Posted by Samc

I guess what you guys really need are custom built systems with all the goodies ..........for free.

for free
don't be a ******, thats just to easy, any twelve year old could do that

[vince @ speck]

The question is... would the audio market be receptive to a 500 series mixing system that is 19" rack compatible.

Someone could make a new 500'ish (1.5" wide) series line input module that has: Fader, stereo pan, solo & mute, 4 aux sends, and 4 bus assign. Another variation of this module could be: fader, pan, solo & mute, 4 aux sends, but no bus assign.

8 of these modules get plugged into a 10 space rack bucket that was designed for these input modules. The last 2 positions are for a modest master module.

All that's necessary to complete this mixing system are the 500 series mic pres, EQ's, and compressors that you already have...or well be buying in the future. What I just described was a 8 channel system. Double what I described and you get 16 channel, triple, you get 24.

Although, I wonder if there is a benefit of having a 24 channel "rackmount" mixing system the size of a refrigerator!

Just my $ 0.02

[clusterchord]

Originally Posted by vince @ speck

The question is... would the audio market be receptive to a 500 series mixing system that is 19" rack compatible.

Someone could make a new 500'ish (1.5" wide) series line input module that has: Fader, stereo pan, solo & mute, 4 aux sends, and 4 bus assign..
All that's necessary to complete this mixing system are the 500 series mic pres, EQ's, and compressors that you already have...or well be buying in the future. ..
Although, I wonder if there is a benefit of having a 24 channel "rackmount" mixing system the size of a refrigerator!

great idea for the 500 series line input module.

as for the "refrigerator" i agree with you completely. as long as were just shelling out ideas/wishes here (some more some less viable), i can say i always imagined someone would make a small console frame that has all the connectors/neutriks at the back that are connected with proper EDAC pinouts at the back of 500 series frames. but frames wouldnt be limited to 19inch, but to whatever width u need to fit 24 channels of 500 series modules, times two, or better, three rows. these three woudl already be connected in series, or to one or two switches so u can change the order on a whim (eq>comp, or comp>eq etc). and finally a row of faders.

some space on the right-hand side for master section modules, aux returns, again with room to put in two eqs on master or buss, a mastering comp etc, and patchbays..

then, if u had option to buy a meter bridge.. for these 24 cvh. .. yummy.

somehow, i dont feel the frame like that should be skyhigh expensive. its the hardware, connectors, rack spaces, faders, power supply, RD design etc.. no real electronics involved - user supplies the rest, cept perhaps the master section and pan/aux send/rtn section might already be on board..



i think this modular principle is fantastic as, most of us don't really need 24 pres. those u do need, u buy and choose from huge selection of 500 series manufacturers. but we do need a lot of quality eq, comps, line inputs, summing, aux send/rtn and all that..

(and then eisenaudio comes out with a eq kit, with variable hpf.. hint, hint )


one thing that bugs me is, is the power standard (+/-16) good enough to give enough headroom for all disigns ppl might want to see in 500 series down the road.. im thinking maybe an alternate standard with more juice should be done too. then i guess youd have to keep them in separate racks.. i know some designs need more voltage than API500 offers.




now, if only Purple would do their MC77 in 500 format..

[Reptil]

mmmm
product #1
a small frame console 12:12:2
with faders no aux, just 12 busses
flexible routing?? with some inputs into the mix matrix for other submixers like the dangerous, or chandler, or glup tonelux!! so 12 channel 4 ext input into 12 bus/aux into 2 master --- or maybe an inline design with more input channels???
mmm I like matrix
tone? clean, with headroom and some passive attenuators here and there.. switchable of course... maybe a MS matrix option LOL
let the sound come from the modules
funky metal box around it (not shabby not chique, just funky...)
bit like cyberpunk meets API meets OSCar synth meets aston martin
couple of nice VU meters...
good portabillity (for live gigs)
built like a tank...
and..
slots
for the 500 series,
12 preamp, 12 eq, 8 compressor slots.. (for those fat Buzz things)
routable to channels, bus, or master
some funky details, like shortcut bypasses built in.
basic but comprehensive monitoring..
retail price 8,5K

product #2
same design 19" metal box, sturdy and funky
PSU inside of course, with a couple of slots for the eq and preamp 6&6 and 4 compressor slots, and a rotary 4:4:2 matrix mixer (second stage also with outputs of course, instead of auxes...)
bit of metering. monitor options good but basic...
sort of xtramix format, but then more basic and more chunky
retail price 4,5 K

everybody can use: their 500 modules, their other summing device or small frame mixer without many busses.. just make it something flexible, that can work in many setups. and chunky and recognisable design, and nice stuff like good PSU, phantom, monitoring, passive switcher and attenuator for monitor... Coleman 500 series module!! they can make a VU module too...
good thing for it, is that it's an all in one solution, and one that combines functions and thus saves place...
well?






sounds like something you could pull off mr. Poulos
I guess the fantasising about a console is fun, and designing one from scratch hard work...

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by clusterchord

great idea for the 500 series line input module.

as for the "refrigerator" i agree with you completely. as long as were just shelling out ideas/wishes here (some more some less viable), i can say i always imagined someone would make a small console frame that has all the connectors/neutriks at the back that are connected with proper EDAC pinouts at the back of 500 series frames. but frames wouldnt be limited to 19inch, but to whatever width u need to fit 24 channels of 500 series modules, times two, or better, three rows. these three woudl already be connected in series, or to one or two switches so u can change the order on a whim (eq>comp, or comp>eq etc). and finally a row of faders.

some space on the left for master section modules, aux returns, again with room to put in two eqs on master or buss, a mastering comp etc, and patchbays..

then, if u had option to buy a meter bridge.. for these 24 cvh. .. yummy.

somehow, i dont feel the frame like that should be skyhigh expensive. its the hardware, connectors, rack spaces, faders, power supply, RD design etc.. no real electronics involved - user supplies the rest, cept perhaps the master section and pan/aux send/rtn section might already be on board..



i think this modular principle is fantastic as, most of us don't really need 24 pres. those u do need, u buy and choose from huge selection of 500 series manufacturers. but we do need a lot of quality eq, comps, line inputs, summing, aux send/rtn and all that..

(and then eisenaudio comes out with a eq kit, with variable hpf.. hint, hint )


one thing that bugs me is, is the power standard (+/-16) good enough to give enough headroom for all disigns ppl might want to see in 500 series down the road.. im thinking maybe an alternate standard with more juice should be done too. then i guess youd have to keep them in separate racks.. i know some designs need more voltage than API500 offers.




now, if only Purple would do their MC77 in 500 format..

I think we're on the same page here.. at least in the case of the purple... LOL

why not make -+15V for the 500 slots, and +24V for the whole..
orrrrr do modular psu for dropin format..
you can choose.. 6 mega slots for dropping in lunchbox format frames, to hold
500 series or/and tonelux or/and SSL or/and ADT

possible, even preferrable... but unlikely...
500 format will be success.. I'm sure

[pan60]

the 500 form is established and it is what it is and that includes the voltage.
no need to redesign an entire system.
a beefier power supply oh yeah ! but the voltage has to stay the same.

[Samc]

My point is, I can configure almost any type of modular console based solmely on components that are already on the market. I don't know what your particular needs are, but I'm sure you could fill those needs with what's out there.

I also don't know what your magic price is, but I have a pretty good feeling that the price for this equipment is not going to drastically fall anytime soon.

But I'm sure you and everyone asking for more stuff knew all of this already.......

[not_so_new]

I know it has been said but..... why not Tonelux?



Here is what I am building. A 16 input Tonelux system with a summing module and a studio monitoring section. Along with that I am going to get 2 10 slot 500 buckets and fill them with 16 EQ's and a few comps to augment my other outboard comps. At that point I have a 16 channel board right?

I am with you Pan, there is a huge upside to the whole 500 series stuff but I think there is enough out there to do what you are talking about already.

[jsteiger]

Originally Posted by pan60

the 500 form is established and it is what it is and that includes the voltage.
no need to redesign an entire system.
a beefier power supply oh yeah ! but the voltage has to stay the same.

I believe the center section of the old API's is 24 volt. It would be great if the folks who invented the 500 series format...API... would get the 1608 off the ground. The desk is supposed to be 8 sends and 8 busses. This is perfect or even a bit more than what has been asked here so far. Would work for me. 16 channel buckets is cool. Add another if and when you can. It must be able to be ordered "short loaded" with no pre's or eq's. I sold my 10 API/BAE original 312's with the thought that this desk would be available. Guess I f***ed up huh??? The 1608 was supposed to street for $40-45k with 8 550b's and 8 560's. Take off all the eq's and you are at approx $26,500-31,500. Still alot of coin but you are talking about a "real console" not a bunch of pieced together modules in a rack. Count me in for the API. Come API, let's get this thing going!!!


Pan, This is quit possibly the best thread that has been started recently...right up there with u b k does Namm!!

[Duardo]

i can say i always imagined someone would make a small console frame that has all the connectors/neutriks at the back that are connected with proper EDAC pinouts at the back of 500 series frames. but frames wouldnt be limited to 19inch, but to whatever width u need to fit 24 channels of 500 series modules, times two, or better, three rows. these three woudl already be connected in series, or to one or two switches so u can change the order on a whim (eq>comp, or comp>eq etc). and finally a row of faders.

This is what I've envisioned as well...maybe even something modular where you buy a master section with as many eight-channel buckets as you need...I like the idea of three rows, maybe even two 500-size and one 200-size although part of the appeal is the number of options there are in the 500-series form factor.

I know it has been said but..... why not Tonelux?

I really like the way his systems work...but there's something to be said for the standard format that there are already so many options available for...not to mention that many of us already have 500-series modules that would be happy to migrate to a system like that...

-Duardo

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Duardo

I really like the way his systems work...but there's something to be said for the standard format that there are already so many options available for...not to mention that many of us already have 500-series modules that would be happy to migrate to a system like that...

-Duardo

Hi Duardo....

Yeah I agree that there are so many cards available for the 500 that it is a no brain-er. That is why I am doing a hybrid of Tonelux and 500.

BUT

Keep in mind that the Tonelux uses 24 volt rails which offers a whole range of options that just can't be done (at least not easily) in a 500 series rack with +/- 16 volt rails.

As much as I LOVE the 500 series concept I am really waiting for the day when the Tonelux starts taking off in a big way with more designers hoping on board. Because there are allot less limitations with Paul's system and it already includes a good summing base with a monitor section it is ready to fill the void where the 500 drops off while still being able to do what the 500 series does as well.

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit but I guess it goes to my point that the options are already out there to do a combo system that would kick ass.

[Samc]

Can someone please tell me what's stopping you guys from building your dream consoles already? All the parts are already available to build everything suggested here.

[jsteiger]

Paul has already incorporated a 500 series rack into a Tonelux console for Jimmy Messina. Lot's of pics on his site. http://www.tonelux.com/messina.html

Just eq's no mic pre's. That I'm sure would be more involved. Mic pre's on the API consoles are also the line input modules. Wonder if this is something that Paul will do on a more frequent basis? To bad there is such a width difference between Tonelux and 500 series modules. It is kind of cool that you can pack 16 Tonelux modules into a horizontal rack space. 11 max for 500 is kind of weird although it was designed for a "console" not an outboard rack.

How is it to work with the module/knob size on the Tonelux? Enough finger room for us guys with stubby fat fingers? The 7800/8200 is pretty frickin' tight.

If API ever does release the 1608, they must give us 8200 owners a way to incorporate our rack mixers as effect returns or additional inputs via the same multi-pin ribbon connector already established. 8200 sends must sum to console sends. Solo and mute groups should also tie together...etc. Basically, 7800 would be completely replaced by center section of 1608. This console must be what we want and need... not only what they are willing to give us.

[jsteiger]

It may be weird to quote yourself but I don't care cause I think this thread is very important (at least to me). The quote is from this thread. 500 series - new products wish list

Most were posting about eq's and compressors, mine was more for a modular console to use all of our cool 500 series modules in.

Originally Posted by vin-gear

API's 7600 is a great over-all idea...build a console one strip at a time but...

What if you...
Take out the built-in 550a eq and replace it with a 500 series slot. You can drop in what ever eq or compressor from whom ever you want. I'm sure we'd all have a few input strips with no eq at all.

Take out the 225 built-in compressor and replace it with another 500 series slot. I've never used the 7600. I'm sure it sounds f***in' great. Like the rest of API's stuff but who really needs, or more importantly, wants a 225 on EVERY input of their console?

24 channels of 7600 @ $2550.00 is $61,200.00!!! HOLLY SHIT!!!

7600 street price $2550.00
Remove 550a $-1441.00
Remove 225 $-591.00
New base of $518.00!!!
Add in a guess-timate of $200 for sheetmetal and edge connectors.
Let's re-think the onboard power supply and do something cool like the way the 8200's daisy-chain together.
Remove power supply guess $-50.00.

Gets you to around $668.00 a channel *24 channels=$16,032.00. Now... I'm starting to get a bit aroused.

What if you add 4 more sends and 4 more busses instead of the 2nd 500 slot?

Now, you've got yourself a discrete, 8 send, 8 buss kick-ass console that you can build one channel at a time. Add eq's as you can offord them.

I'm not a pro-audio manufacturer, but this seems to make a helluva lot more sense than the 7600's.

I know I didn't mention the onboard pre's but, I'm sure that can also be worked out.

Any more thoughts out there...Pan60...anyone???

[Midlandmorgan]

As a 500 slot junkie, I would love to see something like the idea behind all this made available at a reasonable cost...The only issue I am seeing here (flame suit on) is that everyone will want a little something different, and that no one buildup (unless a custome one-off) will suit everyone all the time...

Not trying to start another p*ssing match, but it seems to me that by the time the R&D, buildiups, testing, etc are all done, you've already bought a fullblown mixer anyway.

[pan60]

well the main point of this thread was what would you want in a modular console, or at least that was the plan.
yes are as always a lot of options but nothing is totally what we want is it, at least that is the case with me.
the tonelux is sweet and that maybe the end all of end all's.
but the once again what would you want in a modular console.

[not_so_new]

So I have been thinking about this allot over the last week because I am mulling over the idea of starting a boutique gear company…. gear with a twist is how I have been describing it.

Anyway the problem with the 500 series "console" idea is the lack of adequate bussing inside the frame. You would have to use some sort of external summing device to do what you are talking about. That is exactly why Paul took the next step with the Tonelux stuff, it has internal bussing options that are missing from a 500 bucket.

That said, there are some interesting ideas that I have been coming up with based on the 500 stuff that might fit in here. I guess more to come but I wanted to point out that unfortunately the 500 series stuff is a little limited but other options would work along side of it to do what you want...

[pan60]

i understand that 500 form frame is limited this is way the suggestion of a total separate bucket for the summing and master section.
and yes i do understand this is what Paul has done.
but how about another, maybe speck, ( lets drag Vince into this, lol ) why not, or maybe yet another.

[Duardo]

How much does Primal Gear charge for their console? Are there even any of them out there?

-Duardo

[Midlandmorgan]

I'd kind of dig it if API came up witha method to integrate the ideas put forth here into their DSM systems...that I would think would be THE definative answer

[ToneLux]

Jeff asked me to chime in, so:

When I started the TX range, I looked at many different configurations. The main "effector" was the fact that AtoDs and DtoAs come in 8 or 16 channels, the D-sub connector is 8 channels, Surround plus stereo is 8 channels, PT Le is a max of 32 channels, HUI is limited to 32 channels, People still think in 8, 16, 24, 32, 48 tracks/channels, and finally, space. All of these are common to 8/16 channel multiples. The 1.25" wide format allowed 12 channels in 19", the 1.5" format allowed 10 (11) channels in 19", none of which would easily conform to the patchbays that Audio Accessories makes with the D-subs, DA-88 type interfaces, the list goes on.

In the future, the TX rack range will include more from Daking, SPL is doing the Transient Designer, ELI will be doing the Distressor, but will release a de-essor and a tape simulator first, and we are in discussions with many more companies, trying not to dilute the line and at the same time, offer many options so the rack doesn't go half filled with 2 or 3 other half full racks. This also eliminates the "one sound" you get from a complete console from one company, and gives many ways to build blocks or sets of channels for specific things.

Don't take this as an ad for me, I am just trying to convey the logic behind the system and where it seems that the future is headed. The Messina console is an example of how integrating what each system is good at VS maximizing space usage comes together as a workable solution, but you can also see how the "lining up" of the modules is a but off, but better being in one frame.

[deuc647]

A 500 series distressor! OMG!!!!

[ToneLux]

Originally Posted by deuc647

A 500 series distressor! OMG!!!!

That won't happen...

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by deuc647

A 500 series distressor! OMG!!!!

No... a Tonelux Distressor not a 500 series. Big difference.

Oh and as an aside to David Derr, COME ON MAN, MAKE IT HAPPEN. I will not buy a Distressor as it is but if it came out in a Tonelux format for less money I would pick one up for sure.