Summing, Analog Mixers, and Open Mixes

[opium89]

I've been reading some information about summing using analog gear etc and the general consensus among most is that you can acheive a much more "open" mix with better stereo width/depth using this technique for this of us mixing ITB. A few questions about it.

Who's actually doing this on a regular basis and how is it working for you?

Depending on the summing box, most seem to have (8 or 16 channels), is the idea to create submixes of the drums, guitars, vocals and so on then send those submixes to a stereo channel on the summing unit?

What gear are using to this? I've seen a few rack mount pieces from Speck, Ashly, API, Folcrum, Crane Song and a few others. I've seen an Ashly unit in Craigslist for like $250 or so. Anyone using a small, reasonably priced analog mixer of some sort to accomplish this? If so, which one(s)?

So once you have the unit, what are you sending your stereo 2 buss back in to? Is it best to send it to something like a 1/4" tape or are you sending back through the DAW to digital?

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by opium89

I've been reading some information about summing using analog gear etc and the general consensus among most is that you can acheive a much more "open" mix with better stereo width/depth using this technique for this of us mixing ITB. A few questions about it.

Who's actually doing this on a regular basis and how is it working for you?

Depending on the summing box, most seem to have (8 or 16 channels), is the idea to create submixes of the drums, guitars, vocals and so on then send those submixes to a stereo channel on the summing unit?

What gear are using to this? I've seen a few rack mount pieces from Speck, Ashly, API, Folcrum, Crane Song and a few others. I've seen an Ashly unit in Craigslist for like $250 or so. Anyone using a small, reasonably priced analog mixer of some sort to accomplish this? If so, which one(s)?

So once you have the unit, what are you sending your stereo 2 buss back in to? Is it best to send it to something like a 1/4" tape or are you sending back through the DAW to digital?

Do a search, man, it's been discussed to death here.

Ed

[opium89]

Tried that already. Didn't find specifically what I was looking for, hence the post.

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by opium89

I've been reading some information about summing using analog gear etc and the general consensus among most is that you can acheive a much more "open" mix with better stereo width/depth using this technique for this of us mixing ITB. A few questions about it.

Well then, I'll just add that the way you can achieve a more "open" mix with stereo width yada yada is to improve your technique as an engineer, NOT to go out and waste money because a bunch of boneheads on message boards and marketeers of magic boxes tell you so.

Think, think, think about it; why in the world would analog circuitry make any difference at all in terms of stereo width or depth - that's completely dependent on how you mix, the decisions you make at the mixing stage - how you decide to separate instruments, use reverbs, delays, where and how widely you place stereo information and about a million other decisions.

Sending stereo stems out to an analog box; 2 8 or 16 channels or whatever, is going to add some distortion to your sound. You can get similar (and I would argue better) results with plug ins for a lot less money and complication, but if you're absolutely seduced by the allure of outboard gear, be my guest, open your checkbook.

Ed

[opium89]

Honestly, that's kinda my thinking too but there are plenty of people here that swear by it. Anyone beg to differ and why?

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by opium89

Honestly, that's kinda my thinking too but there are plenty of people here that swear by it. Anyone beg to differ and why?

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm always leery of people who claim to "hear a difference". Usually there's no scientific basis for it, they'll move from their home studio to a pro studio with a mixing board and be astounded the sound is better - not taking into account the million other variables inbetween; better room, better monitors, better engineer etc.

Or, they'll add a box to their own setups, turn everything on and immediately, within seconds, proclaim a revelation in the sound - more "open" etc.

The problem with the latter scenario is things always sound different to us when there's time inbetween listenings - I work in the studio several hours a day; when break for lunch and am often surprised, when I return in the afternoon, how some things sound completely different to me, some better or worse than before the break - and I've changed nothing save putting an hour of downtime in.

A day inbetween, and all bets are off. Our auditory memory is just not that reliable.

I believe manufacturers prey on this last part, and through lots of clever marketing, beautiful looking gear and the power of the internet, are selling a lot of useless gear.

A mixing board, a good one at that, is advantageous under one circumstance: inputs. There's simply no better way to bring a LOT of stuff into a daw simultaneously and with ease (for matching impedances etc.) than with a good mixer. And if you absolutely feel the need, you can MIX through it

Ed

[mahasandi]

Well throwing the science word around doesn't change what you do hear

over time repeatably.

Thats not to say that if one can hear a difference between ITB and OTB that

it can't be "validated" by scientific methods.

But its how you employ the method , and with what normative thesis.etc


That said mixing technique and knowledge is going to make better mixes.

And still you can hear the difference between ITB and OTB and you may

work into the format in a way that you like "better".

I don't need a scientific validation of what i prefer.

I've worked both ways , I'd reccomend you check out some of the summing

shootouts listen for your self to get a ballpark of what it might sound like in your room

Nicerizer/Tonelux/ITB level-matched comp

Vintage King Sponsored Summing Shootout

[RoundBadge]

When I mix rock stuff in the computer vs, mixing on a Neve /APi the difference is big.

F&ck the digital math to hell..there is a difference.

Ask a guy like Dave Sardy to mix a rock record in the computer vs. a console,He'd laugh in your face..
even on small,ghost mixing/ no budget mixing projects he'll still use a little Neve sidecar w/stems with all outboard to make it happen.



Also try doing more searches..theres a TON of info/debate about this stuff

[benelli]

In my experience, I like the sound of a console better. I was bouncing down in protools for a decade before I finally got a nice console and for many reasons, my mixes have improved. I think it has to do with everything from having a more ergonomic workflow to dielectric absorption smearing and distorting the signal in a way that my ears love. A good hardware buss compressor can help - it definitely has a different sound, depending on whether you use it just on the drums, or just on strings, or whatever.

I know guys that SHRED in protools on the sound tip. I got to a point where I though my mixes were sounding pretty ace, and then I realized that I had hit a wall, and had to make some changes in technique AND gear.

Also, as far as printing down to 2 tracks - I've done it to 1/2" and back through an apogee, and while I loved both, I would do the tape every time if I had my own 1/2" machine. The Apogee is doing fine for now.

best,

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

When I mix rock stuff in the computer vs, mixing on a Neve /APi the difference is big.

But mixing on a Neve/API console does not sound the same as mixing your song through a Neve/APi summing box. When mixing through the console you are running it through the input transformers--->mic/line preamps--->transformers---> EQ circuits--> transformers--->,pans, transformers on the busses and sends, transformers on the effect returns, etc. Basically there is a lot heavy coloration going on by the time it gets to the summing network.

A summing box is just a summing network(a bunch of resistors) one stage in the console. Its not going to color the mix that much and shouldn't make as big of a difference as people think. I think the change people desire is the above the cumulation of all the networks working together to give the "API" sound or "Neve"sound.

[Reptil]

my humble opinion is that for a small time operation (like mine), a hybrid setup is best.
some automation in the daw, maybe a small (16 ch) mixer, or summing box & a couple of nice and flexible outboard pieces to give it a bit of zingg is really the ticket.

keep it simple (I didn't ) so you get to learn all the basics fast as poster said above. A small studio can sound just as good or better than a huge one, the level of production is just different. Provided that you choose the right gear, and are a competent enough mixer. The wave of the future.
Outboard is tonally on another level than ITB, sorry it just is IMO, both can be used to make nice mixes. ITB mixes sound too clean for my taste I just like dirty and detailed.

I hope my 2¢ help a bit.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by benelli

In my experience, I like the sound of a console better. I was bouncing down in protools for a decade before I finally got a nice console and for many reasons, my mixes have improved. I think it has to do with everything from having a more ergonomic workflow to dielectric absorption smearing and distorting the signal in a way that my ears love. A good hardware buss compressor can help - it definitely has a different sound, depending on whether you use it just on the drums, or just on strings, or whatever.

I know guys that SHRED in protools on the sound tip. I got to a point where I though my mixes were sounding pretty ace, and then I realized that I had hit a wall, and had to make some changes in technique AND gear.

Also, as far as printing down to 2 tracks - I've done it to 1/2" and back through an apogee, and while I loved both, I would do the tape every time if I had my own 1/2" machine. The Apogee is doing fine for now.

best,

Yep, it is a combination of things for sure..
I also know guys that shred no budget ITB mixes and even better OTB.
given the choice and budget isn't a concern,these guys still pick a console.

[opium89]

Just to be clear, I wasn't hoping to turn this in to a "this or that is better" discussion. More curious about what people are doing, how they are doing it and with what gear. I'd also like to add I will never be able to afford nor have any use for an expensive console. You're obviously capable of great results from something like Neve or SSL, but that's just not my neigborhood. We'll take that as a given so there's no need to discuss that to death here.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

But mixing on a Neve/API console does not sound the same as mixing your song through a Neve/APi summing box. When mixing through the console you are running it through the input transformers--->mic/line preamps--->transformers---> EQ circuits--> transformers--->,pans, transformers on the busses and sends, transformers on the effect returns, etc. Basically there is a lot heavy coloration going on by the time it gets to the summing network.

A summing box is just a summing network(a bunch of resistors) one stage in the console. Its not going to color the mix that much and shouldn't make as big of a difference as people think. I think the change people desire is the above the cumulation of all the networks working together to give the "API" sound or "Neve"sound.

Yes..Thats the catch..The API summing box sounds nothing like an old 3288.
Although i gotta say The Shadow Hills basic Summing Network sounds great compared to internal summing of PT
I'm using a summing rig at home[32 ins] with all the outboard flavors/colors I could possibly need.and it works really well
i do find straight summing stems with only ITB/ plugs does help the situation.
Also the results improve with more inputs 16-24-32...
most every shootout comparison I've seen around here use only 8 ins.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by opium89

Just to be clear, I wasn't hoping to turn this in to a "this or that is better" discussion. More curious about what people are doing, how they are doing it and with what gear. I'd also like to add I will never be able to afford nor have any use for an expensive console. You're obviously capable of great results from something like Neve or SSL, but that's just not my neigborhood. We'll take that as a given so there's no need to discuss that to death here.

Sorry,your right..
I'm using a Tonelux/custom Neve[8 x 1084's x 2 out] setup with outboard comps /more eq's /reverb/delays,etc usually doing something to the 2 buss[comp/eq] to 1/2 inch tape and/or straight back to digital[Lavry conversion]
Since leaving the all ITB realm,I'm actually having fun mixing again.

[dbbubba]

Take it from a BONEHEAD like me that has been recording everything there is since 1975.
I mixed a project twice ITB with one year between attempts, hated the sound (along with svereal VERY knowledgeable people) and re-mixed it a THIRD TIME using a Midas Venice 320 and nice outboard (1176s, dBx 160s/165s, Lexicon 200, H300 for DDL, etc...)

Want to guess which sounds better?

Do I need to learn how to mix in digital?
I have used a DAW since 1990 (WaveFRame 1000)