Recording Rock drums and overhead choice??

jamesosullivan1 · 27th January 2007

Hi all,

I have posted this message below in the drums forum and a chap there called chrisso suggested to post it in this room to give it a little more attention. I hope you dont think this is spamming to much because I would genuinely love some of your opinions on my setup right now for drums.

I only found gearslutz about 1 month ago now and I have a few questions about recording my band here in Ireland. Basically I'm looking for a set of overhead mics that I can use on my drumkit and also maybe use on a few other things in our band. There are not a whole lot of large drum shops and studio in the south tip of the country of ireland so this forum seems like the best place to get some real good advice. I hope you guys can help me out because I would love toget my kit sounding great.

Ok so here is the gear I have so far.

First thing I suppose is the kit itself. This is a large sounding DW collectors. 24"x18" kick 13"x11" rack, 16"x16" floor tom and Black beauty 14"x6 1/2" snare. All have new skins but I am experimenting here aswell with the skins. I have 4 cymbals, all large with a 22" paragon ride being the biggest and large 18inch crash Z cymbal that I would ride on and get a thrashy sound alot. The kit sounds really great and full with a big wet kinda sound to it. I want to capture this sound which isnt far from the sound of Wolfmother and that 70ties kit he has. I will try leaving the hoops on the toms with holes cut in the toms (on the bottom side obviously) if necessary to get that big retro sound. basically its a natural real sound I want to capture up front and not have to replace much or anything like that. obviously I know il have to compress the hell out of it and all that kinda stuff after but its to get that great real sound and give the kit its justice.

I know the room matters too - I have got a room that is all wood with carpetting floors. 14 feet by 12 feet with a 10 foot ceiling so it sounds pretty cool. not the best room in the world but not the worst!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. I have a D112 for the kick and a SM57 for the beater side. (maybe might get the subkick)
2. I have a MD421 for both the rack and floor toms.
3. I have a SM57 for the snare (Still looking for a bottom snare mic, any suggestions really appreciated)
4. Now for the overheads I am thinking the following:

Pair of AT4050's (could use one as a vocal mic because i was told they are as good as the AT4033 which is quite nice I think, also could they be used to mic an upright piano)
Pair Audio Technica ATM450?
Pair Neumann KM184?
Pair Rode NT5?

Now I know the Nuemanns are the most expensive here but are they really better?

I am leaning towards the AT4050's cause i think they could be the best??

Anything else you guys would get instead of these and which is the best of this bunch.

All the mics will be plugged into a CLM dynamics DB8000 preamp with 8 channels which sounds nice kinda like the Focusrite 410 preamp but with 8 channels. I have the adat card for it so I have 16 inputs if I need it on my digi 002 rack system.

I would really appreciate it if you guys out there in great studios and years of experience could guide me a little towards the few great mics I need to allow me to capture my DW kit. Any help would be like gold to me!!! I have self thought myself from day one with my drums and with my recording gear so I am a quick learner so even if you have tricky tips to try out hit me with them because I love to experiment aswell (thats where the fun is

I would like to get a pair of overheads that I can use on an upright piano aswell and also maybe use on a guitar combo valve amp.

Il send you guys on a few pics of the setup I have here in Ireland soon - gotta get the digital camera out first!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks a million,
James

Tommi Inkila · 27th January 2007

It depends on your tastes... all of those you mentioned are good options... to make things harder I'll add one pair in the mix... AKG C414B-XLS, they are very versatile and works on many situations. If you're on lower I'd say AKG C4000b (although some people dislike them).

jamesosullivan1 · 27th January 2007

Nice one tommy for the advice. I guess the option I need should cover, my lead vocal, my overheads, and my upright piano because these are all crucial to our sound. it is a heavy groove bassed sound. It is rock but in a contemporary sense with a large drum sound and bass. The vocal is harsh and pushed a bit.

those AKG C414B-XLS seem a great mic. However 1800 euro for the pair might be a little much. But i suppose if i got the neumann set for 1000 euro id have to go away and get a good vocal mic like a tlm 103 aswell which would bring it up to 1800 euro again. Id like to get 2 great mics to cover all bases so to speak.

the AT4050 against the AKG C414B-XLS so seems to be the option now!!!!

Its never ending!!!! any more advice?

PapillonIrl · 27th January 2007

Hi James...

I like a pair of AKG 414's on piano and OH's, the B-ULS version is my favourite for this.

I have used all the mics on your list, but I've only used the AT for vocals. My impression was that it wasn't as detailed or flat as the 414, so if you don't need a vocal mic I would go with a pair of 414-b-uls from ebay or whatever.

On the other hand, small diaphragm mics tend to be more detailed, if that's what you're looking for (it doesn't sound like you are, particularly, from your description).

I would try and borrow a pair of well known mics and report back here with the results.

If you find your cymbals are sounding harsh, maybe you should consider ribbon mics, like the Royers (pricey) or even a pair of Beyer M160's(great on guitar amps too, but you will need 2-channels of nice eq).

If they are sounding dark, and lacking detail, the Neumanns may be just the ticket.

Rambling a bit so I'll stop now, hope this helps.

Nathan

p.s. I really like the Rode Nt4/Nt5 for this application considering the price, many don't though.

jamesosullivan1 · 27th January 2007

Cheers Nathan, your ramblings are really helping man - nice one.

Ok so what you are saying is the 414 are cool for piano and overheads because they give a great flat detailed sound? I dont need ultra detail as you said because it is a big rock wet drum sound im after - not something to precise here. (however good separation of the stereo image is important to gain that large stereo impression).

So you wreckon the 414 would not be that good for lead vocal then? I could stretch my budget to a pair of C414 and then get a AT4033 for the vocal if you think that would be cool?

Now i know there is a alot of C414 and the one you suggested which one is that?

Is it this one i found on ebay?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AKG-C414BXLS-S...QQcmdZViewItem

Cheers for all the help and the detailed descriptions the better descriptions i get the better choice il make because there are not a whole lot of places i can get my hands on these mics here in the south tip of ireland without ordering them first from a main shop in the UK or ebay!!!! Its kinda a get and hope for the best but im not doing to bad so far just need to sort out this mic selection and the vocals and piano and i should be good to rock!!!!!!

Nice one

PapillonIrl · 27th January 2007

No,

http://cgi.ebay.com/AKG-C-414-B-ULS-...QQcmdZViewItem

this is the one I prefer. You'll probably get it cheaper than the new ones too. Mine is modded by Jim Williams (Audio Upgrades) and sounds great.

If you are into goin for a sound similar to Wolfmother, you could use your md-421's for vocals, and spend the change on a nice compressor.

Cheers,

Nathan

djui5 · 27th January 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesosullivan1

Pair of AT4050's (could use one as a vocal mic because i was told they are as good as the AT4033 which is quite nice I think, also could they be used to mic an upright piano)
Thanks a million,
James

No, get a pair of AT 4047's. You'll thank me later.

jamesosullivan1 · 27th January 2007

Cheers, nathan i didnt even think of using my MD 421 for vocals dont know why to be honest because i love to experiment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So you think the MD 421 would be good as a vocal mic. I dont have a great compressor yet as outboard gear. I have a few waves plugin compressors but i was thinking of getting a UAD 1176 compressor plugin - u think it is good?

Also why the AT4047's over the C414 'djui5' are they good for vocals and piano aswell? Im not sure yet you see - there seems to be a few good options here. Some say 4050 some say 4047 some say 4060 what is the difference!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHH

Cheers for all the help mates - with more info i think il decide on something that fits.

Blindside · 27th January 2007

Go with the pair of ATM450s AND get a AT4047 and still have cash left over. I cannot sing the praises of the ATM450s enough. If you give me a few days I can post some clips when I get my computer back. You'll thank ME later.

bigbone · 27th January 2007

I did get a pair of KEL HM-1 as OH'S and i love it,
it sound natural , and give a great and accurate tone to your drums.

kelaudio.com

jamesosullivan1 · 27th January 2007

Thanks blindside - il definately wait for the sound clips of the ATM450.

Wow ive gone full circle here with these mics. I guess for about 1800euro id like to cover the vocal and drum overhead and piano micing for the band.

Its a large drum sound remember im after!!

thanks again for the advice everyone.

IndieRockStudio · 27th January 2007

i swear by AKG C451's. i have the "B" version and although people tend to brush them off because they arent the original, these things accel on overheads. especially through a flattering pre for overheads like an A Designs P-1, OSA MP1-C, API 512C, etc.

now GO and get em!

Cheers

-JD

digibird · 27th January 2007

I use KEL HM-1s as room mics and AT 4047s as close ambient mics (instead of overheads). Close ambient meaning 3-5 ft. in front of the drums at a height of 3-4 ft. (say between floor tom and crash cymbal height) - how far apart is up to your ears and intentions.

I like this combination so much that I often don't use the close-miked tracks at all. I will add a 3rd room mic as a mono source (an AEA R84), compress the hell out of it, and sneak it back in under all the other tracks to taste.

I am really liking this approach on a set of Ludwig Classic Maples. 26" kick, 14-16-18" toms, 6 1/2x14" Black Beauty snare. All Paiste 2002 series cymbals: 17-18-19-20" crashes, 24" ride, 15" sound edge hi-hats. It greatly helps that I like the sound of the room that the drums are in - lots of 703 panels for broad-band absorption.

I definitely recommend either the HM-1s, or the 4047s, or both.

27th January 2007	#1
jamesosullivan1 Gear nut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cork, Ireland Posts: 110 Thread Starter	Recording Rock drums and overhead choice?? Hi all, I have posted this message below in the drums forum and a chap there called chrisso suggested to post it in this room to give it a little more attention. I hope you dont think this is spamming to much because I would genuinely love some of your opinions on my setup right now for drums. I only found gearslutz about 1 month ago now and I have a few questions about recording my band here in Ireland. Basically I'm looking for a set of overhead mics that I can use on my drumkit and also maybe use on a few other things in our band. There are not a whole lot of large drum shops and studio in the south tip of the country of ireland so this forum seems like the best place to get some real good advice. I hope you guys can help me out because I would love toget my kit sounding great. Ok so here is the gear I have so far. First thing I suppose is the kit itself. This is a large sounding DW collectors. 24"x18" kick 13"x11" rack, 16"x16" floor tom and Black beauty 14"x6 1/2" snare. All have new skins but I am experimenting here aswell with the skins. I have 4 cymbals, all large with a 22" paragon ride being the biggest and large 18inch crash Z cymbal that I would ride on and get a thrashy sound alot. The kit sounds really great and full with a big wet kinda sound to it. I want to capture this sound which isnt far from the sound of Wolfmother and that 70ties kit he has. I will try leaving the hoops on the toms with holes cut in the toms (on the bottom side obviously) if necessary to get that big retro sound. basically its a natural real sound I want to capture up front and not have to replace much or anything like that. obviously I know il have to compress the hell out of it and all that kinda stuff after but its to get that great real sound and give the kit its justice. I know the room matters too - I have got a room that is all wood with carpetting floors. 14 feet by 12 feet with a 10 foot ceiling so it sounds pretty cool. not the best room in the world but not the worst!!!!!!!!!!!! 1. I have a D112 for the kick and a SM57 for the beater side. (maybe might get the subkick) 2. I have a MD421 for both the rack and floor toms. 3. I have a SM57 for the snare (Still looking for a bottom snare mic, any suggestions really appreciated) 4. Now for the overheads I am thinking the following: Pair of AT4050's (could use one as a vocal mic because i was told they are as good as the AT4033 which is quite nice I think, also could they be used to mic an upright piano) Pair Audio Technica ATM450? Pair Neumann KM184? Pair Rode NT5? Now I know the Nuemanns are the most expensive here but are they really better? I am leaning towards the AT4050's cause i think they could be the best?? Anything else you guys would get instead of these and which is the best of this bunch. All the mics will be plugged into a CLM dynamics DB8000 preamp with 8 channels which sounds nice kinda like the Focusrite 410 preamp but with 8 channels. I have the adat card for it so I have 16 inputs if I need it on my digi 002 rack system. I would really appreciate it if you guys out there in great studios and years of experience could guide me a little towards the few great mics I need to allow me to capture my DW kit. Any help would be like gold to me!!! I have self thought myself from day one with my drums and with my recording gear so I am a quick learner so even if you have tricky tips to try out hit me with them because I love to experiment aswell (thats where the fun is I would like to get a pair of overheads that I can use on an upright piano aswell and also maybe use on a guitar combo valve amp. Il send you guys on a few pics of the setup I have here in Ireland soon - gotta get the digital camera out first!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks a million, James

27th January 2007	#4
PapillonIrl Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ireland Posts: 626	Hi James... I like a pair of AKG 414's on piano and OH's, the B-ULS version is my favourite for this. I have used all the mics on your list, but I've only used the AT for vocals. My impression was that it wasn't as detailed or flat as the 414, so if you don't need a vocal mic I would go with a pair of 414-b-uls from ebay or whatever. On the other hand, small diaphragm mics tend to be more detailed, if that's what you're looking for (it doesn't sound like you are, particularly, from your description). I would try and borrow a pair of well known mics and report back here with the results. If you find your cymbals are sounding harsh, maybe you should consider ribbon mics, like the Royers (pricey) or even a pair of Beyer M160's(great on guitar amps too, but you will need 2-channels of nice eq). If they are sounding dark, and lacking detail, the Neumanns may be just the ticket. Rambling a bit so I'll stop now, hope this helps. Nathan p.s. I really like the Rode Nt4/Nt5 for this application considering the price, many don't though. __________________ ''Because your candle burns too bright, well I almost forgot it was twilight' Elliott Smith

27th January 2007	#10
bigbone Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Montreal Qc Posts: 1,503	I did get a pair of KEL HM-1 as OH'S and i love it, it sound natural , and give a great and accurate tone to your drums. kelaudio.com Last edited by bigbone; 27th January 2007 at 04:50 PM.. Reason: to many words.........

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27th January 2007	#2
Tommi Inkila Gear nut Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 136	It depends on your tastes... all of those you mentioned are good options... to make things harder I'll add one pair in the mix... AKG C414B-XLS, they are very versatile and works on many situations. If you're on lower I'd say AKG C4000b (although some people dislike them).

27th January 2007	#9
Blindside Gear addict Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 485	Go with the pair of ATM450s AND get a AT4047 and still have cash left over. I cannot sing the praises of the ATM450s enough. If you give me a few days I can post some clips when I get my computer back. You'll thank ME later.

27th January 2007	#12
IndieRockStudio Gear nut Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 116	i swear by AKG C451's. i have the "B" version and although people tend to brush them off because they arent the original, these things accel on overheads. especially through a flattering pre for overheads like an A Designs P-1, OSA MP1-C, API 512C, etc. now GO and get em! Cheers -JD

27th January 2007	#13
digibird Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 555	I use KEL HM-1s as room mics and AT 4047s as close ambient mics (instead of overheads). Close ambient meaning 3-5 ft. in front of the drums at a height of 3-4 ft. (say between floor tom and crash cymbal height) - how far apart is up to your ears and intentions. I like this combination so much that I often don't use the close-miked tracks at all. I will add a 3rd room mic as a mono source (an AEA R84), compress the hell out of it, and sneak it back in under all the other tracks to taste. I am really liking this approach on a set of Ludwig Classic Maples. 26" kick, 14-16-18" toms, 6 1/2x14" Black Beauty snare. All Paiste 2002 series cymbals: 17-18-19-20" crashes, 24" ride, 15" sound edge hi-hats. It greatly helps that I like the sound of the room that the drums are in - lots of 703 panels for broad-band absorption. I definitely recommend either the HM-1s, or the 4047s, or both.