Mackie HR824: American or Chinese made

[Dopamine]

Does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumor that the newer Asian-made Mackie's sound inferior to the origianl American-made ones?

Just wondering here if someone has actually A/B'd them. (Mackie says that they are the exact same components.)

I foolishly sold my pair and needs to get some new ones.

[Dopamine]

Hmmm, so no one knows if this is fact or Urban Legend?

[kingofswing]

I cannot comment on sound differences, but i sat for a demo on the 824's a while ago (2005), and they were China made units.

Guess what?

The first set the shop had on demo, the audio kept cutting out. We checked all cables, mixer, etc. They opened two brand new boxes in front of me, set them up, and only one of them powered up, the other was dead out the box. As you can immagine, i was not happy.

This is not to say that all China made 824s are faulty, it could have been a complete batch that the store brought in, or poor handling during shipping.

[PDC]

Many of the amp componets originate from China anyway. It is assembled by machines, just as it was in the USA. So, basically, unless they have changed drivers (and they have not) and can goof up the cabinet, then they should be the same darn thing don't ya think?

[Mark Warren]

They absolutely, 100% DO NOT sound the same. Myself and other folks that have been to our studio (and work at the studio) have had the opportunity to hear the ones in the studio (that I had sitting in their boxes since 1998 as a backup pair so they're about brand new as you can get for being the original USA ones) vs. the new ones they're selling at the local music stores.

And the conclusion - the new ones sound like ass compared to the originals. Not even in the same class. In fact the comment was made by someone that works at a local music store (and also works in the studio) that they couldn't believe Mackie still has the nerve to charge what they do for the speaker and keep the same model number on it, since it is so obviously inferior to what was produce 5-8 years ago.

And of course the reason Mackie hasn't changed the price or the name is that they are simply trading on and leveraging upon the name and reputation of the originals.

So, if you were lucky enough to get the originals and they're still in good shape, keep em, and if you can find originals that don't have mega hours on them, buy them.

Originally Posted by PDC

unless they have changed drivers (and they have not) and can goof up the cabinet, then they should be the same darn thing don't ya think?

Unless you work for Mackie that comment is baseless. They're a lot of electronic parts in those speakers, especially in the power amps, which make all the difference in the world. Even if the schematic is the same but the parts are sourced differently using Chinese components vs. American or whatever can make all the difference in the world.

The new ones are bunk IMO. Either get something else in that price class or step up to DynaudioBM15's or something. The new 824's sound weak, thin, and trashy, with a more grating high end and no where near the punch in the bottom end of the original USA designs. They're not completely unusable, but again Mackie is totally whoring out the reputation they built with the original versions.

P.S. And it also explains alot why so many people trash the 824's in these forums. When I first stating posting here I couldn't figure out WTF people were talkng about in bashing the 824's, until I found out about the changes and went and heard a pair of the new ones for myself. I was totally disgusted.

[kingofswing]

I think in this situation the best thing Dopamine can do, is to try a China made pair and try to recall any familiarity with his previous USA made units.

If things sound different, you will know right away.

[Dopamine]

Thanks, Mark-- good info! Damn, I screwed up by selling these!

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by Dopamine

Thanks, Mark-- good info! Damn, I screwed up by selling these!

I really doubt that..

when I demo'd the newer model ones in GC. I heard them up against krk and events.. and IMHO they sounded better than the other monitors they were up againts..


I beleive they are flat.. I like others had a hard time getting my mixes to translate.. but I since then rolled off at 80 and installed a sub and have no problems now..


so sometimes I feel like.. no matter what you have.. it aint what you got.. its what you can do with them..

[Mark Warren]

If you had them before, and you know how they sounded, take a CD with you to the local Music Shack and listen for yourself to the new ones, I think you'll hear a difference right away.

[tunasafedolphin]

Ahh... Aside from knowing the history of a specific unit, how can one tell if it's Chinese or USA made?

-C

[goldphinga]

yeah but hang on a minute....

if you are listening to stuff on hr824's out of your normal monitoring environment they aint gonna sound the same are they? Especially in the perfectly treated surroundings of you local music store!

[George Necola]

der distressor ist der einige compressor auf dem markt der das konzept des 1176 nukings nochmal einen schritt weiterfuehrt. aber das erzaehlt der weapon in einem anderen weihnachsmaerchen."

I like the HR824. a lot of hyped bass and sound a bit better then normal HIFI-systems. perfect to check your mix for translation.

cheers

[goldphinga]

whats the quote about then 1176??

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Mark Warren

They absolutely, 100% DO NOT sound the same. - the new ones sound like ass compared to the originals. Not even in the same class.

I've heard both and agree that the new ones sound awful. I couldn't believe the difference. But all manufacturers are heading over there eventually. EAW just did! I guess the old stock will become extremely valuable.

[mrface2112]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

when I demo'd the newer model ones in GC. I heard them up against krk and events.. and IMHO they sounded better than the other monitors they were up againts..

there's a fundamental flaw here. you can NOT properly "audition" monitors in Guitar Center.

first of all, their monitor room pretty much sucks (at least, all of the ones i've been in have).

second of all, who knows what they've done to make one set of monitors sound better than another? most monitors have "room tailoring controls" on the back which can provide dramatic control over the lows and highs. who knows what monkey has been twiddling with those knobs?

lastly, GC is going to want to make one set of monitors sound better than the rest, so that people will buy that one. This is the gear equivalent of a "leading question". More often than not, the ones they try to steer you towards are the ones with the biggest profit margins.

i too agree that there's a difference between the US and Chinese made ones. i don't like the US ones too much and totally hate the sound of the current/chinese ones. i went with Event ASP8's b/c they worked best with the way i work and sounded great in my room.


cheers,
wade

[Samplecraze]

Dopamine

Do you have to buy the same make/brand?

At this price range I can think of better options, but that's me and taste is subjective.

[PDC]

Originally Posted by Mark Warren

If you had them before, and you know how they sounded, take a CD with you to the local Music Shack and listen for yourself to the new ones, I think you'll hear a difference right away.

Use them in YOUR room, not theirs. They don't have quiet, tuned, control rooms that can handle the bass response, with the monitors correctly placed to minimize nodes. How can anyone say that they demo'd them at GC and then judge what they heard IN A STORE up against what THEY REMEMBER the old ones sounding like?

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by mrface2112

there's a fundamental flaw here. you can NOT properly "audition" monitors in Guitar Center.

first of all, their monitor room pretty much sucks (at least, all of the ones i've been in have).

second of all, who knows what they've done to make one set of monitors sound better than another? most monitors have "room tailoring controls" on the back which can provide dramatic control over the lows and highs. who knows what monkey has been twiddling with those knobs?

lastly, GC is going to want to make one set of monitors sound better than the rest, so that people will buy that one. This is the gear equivalent of a "leading question". More often than not, the ones they try to steer you towards are the ones with the biggest profit margins.

i too agree that there's a difference between the US and Chinese made ones. i don't like the US ones too much and totally hate the sound of the current/chinese ones. i went with Event ASP8's b/c they worked best with the way i work and sounded great in my room.


cheers,
wade

As an ex-employee of Guitar Center (it's not a company that I love keep in mind), I'd like to speak on this, although I am not trying to divege too much from the topic of these monitors. I used to work as a Pro Audio/Keyboard salesperson, and I took it upon myself to make sure that there was a decent (or as decent as it was going to get) monitoring setup at all times. Not all GC's will do the same, but I know that I was never instructed to make any set of monitors sound better than another, or trying to push certain ones. At the same time I wasn't a star salesperson, and didn't go just for profits.

In response to your points:

1) No, the rooms aren't the best always, but they try to make them somewhat workable. The Boston store (where I was) had a little room in the back that was at least fairly quiet, and that's where I went to retreat from the noise of the floor when I could. The NYC store is a little better, and has a room with an ICON in it setup, and I'm sure if you were serious about A/B'ing monitors they would drag any sets in there and set them up for you. The larger speaker room isn't perfect, but you could tell if there was a HUGE difference between two sets of monitors in the room.

2) If I saw someone ****ing around with the monitor controls behind them (salesperson, or customer) I got them away from it ASAP. I kept the monitors sounding good when I could (had a nice setup of 4 pairs of competing brands setup, where you could switch clocks/convertors if you wanted too). We didn't intentionally adjust anything to make anything "bigger" sounding, at least I didn't.

3) While some salespeople in Pro Audio would do this, I wouldn't. And didn't. The monitors themselves normally made a pretty clear difference in what a person would want. I wish they had a better policy for returning monitors (no restocking fee?), so you could really try stuff out. Really, the people who actually make money in Pro Audio at GC ***** out stuff for ZERO "Gross Profit" as the computer at GC calculates it (except on junk like cables, or items that aren't "movable", and even those are still up for debate). I'm serious, the main Pro Audio guy in Boston that sells to all of the big clients and installations is known for cheap prices, but he makes money from selling a lot of it. There would be no reason for him to try to sell a pair of KRK's vs Events really. if he had a happy (and returning) customer, that would be better for him if he was smart. The people at GC who make money rely almost ONLY off return customers. That means selling them what they actually NEED/WANT not what makes you the best profit.

I know that GC gets a bad rap. Hey, I avoid it when I can. Many of the salespeople suck. I mean really suck. The place doesn't try to make it's employees evil however or decieve the customers. They try to encourage salespeople to learn a bit when they can about the products, and know as much as possible about them. Some of them do it, others don't. Try to work with the managers and people who have been there the longest. I won't work with anyone that's not either a store manager, sales manager, or department manager. Down from that you'll find some real morons on occasion.

One tip to keeping your salesperson happy at GC... don't talk to other salespeople when you are there! When someone asks if they can help you, immediately say, "I'm working with Bob." Don't try to get their input on a unit, don't try to get them to help you do anything. It will cause headaches and issues for your salesperson.

But to the main point, no I don't think you can accurately try out ANYTHING in Guitar Center. You'll get a vague idea of charcteristics of various things, but in general it's hard to say for ANYTHING (guitars, drums, amps, mics, etc...). I always thought it was funny when people would try... It's best to get a vague idea, negotiate a good return policy (make sure there's no restocking fee and they have marked the ticket as such), and then take it home. If it's good, keep it, if not return it.

[Mark Warren]

Originally Posted by PDC

Use them in YOUR room, not theirs. They don't have quiet, tuned, control rooms that can handle the bass response, with the monitors correctly placed to minimize nodes. How can anyone say that they demo'd them at GC and then judge what they heard IN A STORE up against what THEY REMEMBER the old ones sounding like?

What I'm saying is that the difference is so severe, you wouldn't even need to take them on home with you to listen to them in the store and hear they don't sound good.

Some GC's do have decent rooms setup, others don't. But if you're right in front of the speakers the room isn't coming into play as much, and you can hear it instantly.

Because originally, I did buy the Mackies based on how they sounded at GC, sitting down in front of them. I remember thinking 'wow, if they sound this great at the store I can't imagine how they'll sound in a well designed/treated room.' Now all I think when I hear them is 'wow, what did they do to these???'

It's not like someone put a blanket over them or anything, but they are definitely different, and in a direction for the worse.

[tunasafedolphin]

Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin

Ahh... Aside from knowing the history of a specific unit, how can one tell if it's Chinese or USA made?

-C

I've never quoted myself before! No but in all honesty, are there any markings and/or serial numbers that enable someone to tell where they're made?

-C

[mrface2112]

Tibbon-- . i hear you loud and clear, brother. i know there are some good folks at GC--i deal with one in drums at my local GC, another one in guitars, and used to have a guy in pro audio that i trusted completely. then he went and left and i've yet to find someone to replace him. i always only deal (dealt) with those guys--it's a mutual "you take care of me, i'll take care of you" thing.

the sad part is, that for every GOOD guy at GC, there are a few tools who just want to make an extra buck and will do it by any means necessary. maybe i painted with too broad stroke, but never the less, i wanted to warn our intrepid engineer friend to take anything "auditioned" at GC with a grain of salt (and a shot of tequila or two).

anyway, i don't want to digress too much from the topic either--i just wanted to let you know that we're on the same page.


cheers,
wade

[Crash]

Originally Posted by Mark Warren

Unless you work for Mackie that comment is baseless. They're a lot of electronic parts in those speakers, especially in the power amps, which make all the difference in the world. Even if the schematic is the same but the parts are sourced differently using Chinese components vs. American or whatever can make all the difference in the world.

Well, I did work for Mackie during their "American" heyday before they shipped all of their jobs and integrity abroad. I can tell you that they sourced different parts from different vendors all the time as some parts became unavailable, or were no longer made....or would do the same job for cheaper. It happened with all of their lines and it happens with most pro audio manufacturers in the very same manner I would think. These are businesses and believe it or not, profit does enter the picture. Having said that, I don't think I have ever heard a pair of Chinese made HR824s but I can't imagine that they sound that different than their US counterparts. There was a baseline frequency response that an HR824 had to hit before it was deemed "worthy" for shipment as an "A" stock unit. Each and everyone of them went into an anachoic chamber and was measured with a B&K mic (can't tell you the model) and a frequency plot was printed out and shipped with that speaker showing temp and humidity levels at the time of test. I can't believe that even though they are no longer made in Washington state, that the standard has been lowered due to where they are built. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't make much sense from a business standpoint. I seem to remember people going through a similar reaction when the input connections changes changed during the "THX" certification. People wanted the originals before the change, though the sound of the monitor didn't change. I am not doubting that Mark heard a bad pair but I have to wonder if the issue was something other than build origin.

Not trying to start a pissing contest with anyone here but just wanted to put out some info. from someone who was there.

I wouldn't worry about where a monitor was built, just go out and find what works best for you, be it a Mackie, Genelec, or a Radio Shack speaker.

[bexarametric]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

As an ex-employee of Guitar Center (it's not a company that I love keep in mind), I'd like to speak on this, although I am not trying to divege too much from the topic of these monitors. I used to work as a Pro Audio/Keyboard salesperson, and I took it upon myself to make sure that there was a decent (or as decent as it was going to get) monitoring setup at all times. Not all GC's will do the same, but I know that I was never instructed to make any set of monitors sound better than another, or trying to push certain ones. At the same time I wasn't a star salesperson, and didn't go just for profits.

In response to your points:

1) No, the rooms aren't the best always, but they try to make them somewhat workable. The Boston store (where I was) had a little room in the back that was at least fairly quiet, and that's where I went to retreat from the noise of the floor when I could. The NYC store is a little better, and has a room with an ICON in it setup, and I'm sure if you were serious about A/B'ing monitors they would drag any sets in there and set them up for you. The larger speaker room isn't perfect, but you could tell if there was a HUGE difference between two sets of monitors in the room.

2) If I saw someone ****ing around with the monitor controls behind them (salesperson, or customer) I got them away from it ASAP. I kept the monitors sounding good when I could (had a nice setup of 4 pairs of competing brands setup, where you could switch clocks/convertors if you wanted too). We didn't intentionally adjust anything to make anything "bigger" sounding, at least I didn't.

3) While some salespeople in Pro Audio would do this, I wouldn't. And didn't. The monitors themselves normally made a pretty clear difference in what a person would want. I wish they had a better policy for returning monitors (no restocking fee?), so you could really try stuff out. Really, the people who actually make money in Pro Audio at GC ***** out stuff for ZERO "Gross Profit" as the computer at GC calculates it (except on junk like cables, or items that aren't "movable", and even those are still up for debate). I'm serious, the main Pro Audio guy in Boston that sells to all of the big clients and installations is known for cheap prices, but he makes money from selling a lot of it. There would be no reason for him to try to sell a pair of KRK's vs Events really. if he had a happy (and returning) customer, that would be better for him if he was smart. The people at GC who make money rely almost ONLY off return customers. That means selling them what they actually NEED/WANT not what makes you the best profit.

I know that GC gets a bad rap. Hey, I avoid it when I can. Many of the salespeople suck. I mean really suck. The place doesn't try to make it's employees evil however or decieve the customers. They try to encourage salespeople to learn a bit when they can about the products, and know as much as possible about them. Some of them do it, others don't. Try to work with the managers and people who have been there the longest. I won't work with anyone that's not either a store manager, sales manager, or department manager. Down from that you'll find some real morons on occasion.

One tip to keeping your salesperson happy at GC... don't talk to other salespeople when you are there! When someone asks if they can help you, immediately say, "I'm working with Bob." Don't try to get their input on a unit, don't try to get them to help you do anything. It will cause headaches and issues for your salesperson.

But to the main point, no I don't think you can accurately try out ANYTHING in Guitar Center. You'll get a vague idea of charcteristics of various things, but in general it's hard to say for ANYTHING (guitars, drums, amps, mics, etc...). I always thought it was funny when people would try... It's best to get a vague idea, negotiate a good return policy (make sure there's no restocking fee and they have marked the ticket as such), and then take it home. If it's good, keep it, if not return it.

I run the Pro Audio/Keyboard department in the Plano, TX Guitar Center. We do not touch the back of our monitors (excluding when we turn them on). I instruct my guys to sell the right thing the first time. If you do not, the customer will return it and you will not get comission for that. This policy keeps our sales associates honest.

We know our profit centers (The profit earners), but I educate the guys that I manage on gear every day before we open the store. That way they understand quality. I cannot endorse or bad mouth any specific product on these boards because I don't know if I would be violating a company policy, but let's just say that I train my guys to not push crappy equipment. If you do, the customer walks out with the wrong item and then they return it. You don't get any commision that way and all parties involved just wasted a lot of time.

I've seen a lot of generalizations about GC sales associates. I invite you to come by my department any time. If one of my guys can't answer your question, they will find someone that will. They will not take advantage of you. They truly believe that they are qualifying you into the proper gear for your situation. It makes me happy to know that my guys are honest.

Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin

Ahh... Aside from knowing the history of a specific unit, how can one tell if it's Chinese or USA made?

-C

Can someone who has some look on th eback and see if it says Made in USA or China? Wouldn't that be the way to tell?

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

While some salespeople in Pro Audio would do this, I wouldn't. And didn't. The monitors themselves normally made a pretty clear difference in what a person would want. I wish they had a better policy for returning monitors (no restocking fee?), so you could really try stuff out. Really, the people who actually make money in Pro Audio at GC ***** out stuff for ZERO "Gross Profit" as the computer at GC calculates it (except on junk like cables, or items that aren't "movable", and even those are still up for debate). I'm serious, the main Pro Audio guy in Boston that sells to all of the big clients and installations is known for cheap prices, but he makes money from selling a lot of it. There would be no reason for him to try to sell a pair of KRK's vs Events really. if he had a happy (and returning) customer, that would be better for him if he was smart. The people at GC who make money rely almost ONLY off return customers. That means selling them what they actually NEED/WANT not what makes you the best profit.

One tip to keeping your salesperson happy at GC... don't talk to other salespeople when you are there! When someone asks if they can help you, immediately say, "I'm working with Bob." Don't try to get their input on a unit, don't try to get them to help you do anything. It will cause headaches and issues for your salesperson.
[b]

I remember the folks in Accessories seemed to have the best sales of everybody (except the "artist" salespeople, who DIDN'T HAVE TO WORK THE FLOOR OR ANSWER PHONES ). Not that I worked at GC that long -- and I heard it's changed a bit.

We would get the high-end demo-ers, you know, "yeah, our band just signed our deal" -- cool "we heard the Avalon was a great box" (it was the hot s^&t at the time) -- yeah "what studio monitors and mic would work well with a Pro Tools Mix rig and that?" this sale is gonna PAY MY RENT FOR THE MONTH!!! And then, two hours later, after you managed to actually get the key to the mic cabinet AND the "cage" in the warehouse (because of your lack of seniority, even laying off answering the phones for a bit gets you the "evil eye" from the department leader -- although you're using the "I'm dealing with a potentially very good client right now" excuse), the client says, "well, I need to talk to _______" (high-end artist relations guy who never works the floor and whose name is always mentioned in the same breath as Dave Weiderman, aka the guy at Hollywood GC with the signed posters and records on his wall) -- "can you have him paged or something?"

And right around that time, the evening slump or the afternoon doldrums set in, and you know you're gonna be lucky to move a few mic cables before you have to get the vacuum cleaner out. And your personal "I have to GP ___ and Gross ___ to pay ____ bills" isn't even close to being met, so next month is gonna su*k.

Man, I'm glad to be out of that business. Didn't take me long Now if anybody can get my clients to send in their checks a little sooner...