how do i change sound of cymbals?

[gem]

hi there
i will record acoustic-drums in a few days.
i dont like the sound of the cymbals he is playing.
to thin and shiny. i like more zyldjian-k or jazzy dark sounding
cymbals.is there someone out there who will give me an
idea what to take care of before recording or even idea of
overhead positioning.
will use shoeps as overheads in a small-midsize room.
preamps are api7600.will comp. overheads with manley mu.
style is raggae-rock.
thank you folks-

[David Herbert]

I know it's obvious, but change the cymbals. Since you have a bit of notice you can hunt around. David

[chrisso]

Yep. Rent some cymbals.
Otherwise use Coles or AEA R84 ribbon mics or even KM84's.

[smoothmoniker]

yup

hate to be redundant, but there are no satisfying post-tracking solution for cheap cymbals.

Rental is the way to go. If there aren't any drum rental companies in your town (didn't see where you are), call one of the session drummers in your book, and see if they're up for renting out their metal. Some are cool with it.

-sm

[joeq]

The cymbal rental idea is probably your best bet, but here are some other suggestions from left field:

Some people bury the cymbals in the back yard for a while (really!) but since your session is in a few days, it's probably not enough time for them to get that nice layer of corrosion that darkens the sound.

I sometimes put a strip or two of masking tape on my big ride cymbal to control the ring, and it works well for me, but that may not be quite what you are looking for, and of course it may cause other problems . On the other hand, it only takes a minute to try it and see.

How about switching him from nylon tip sticks to wood tips?

Keep in mind that except for mic choice, all your options will involve a certain degree of challenging someone's "sound"- try to be diplomatic.

[Jason Poulin]

Ways to make thin bright cymbals sound dark?

Make sure you get lots of sweat from hands on them and do NOT wash them. That will darken then up.

Also, you can add som verb on them an Eq that verb by cutting the highs and boost the bass frequencies. It will stick out less and sound darker.

put tape or stickers on them to dull em (may sound darker)

Tighten up the felt thingy? on top of the cymbal.

don't smash em too hard. Stay jazzy

try different sticks.

try a different seat? haha kidding about that one.

Anyhow, here are some ideas (may or may not work for you)

good Luck

Jason

Well....as posted different cymbals are the best solution
AND have the drummer play in a tracking style (hard drums/light cymbals) are the best ways to change OR improve cymbal sound.

However, I doubt the customer will want to change gear he picked out or his style of playing. Most likely if hasn't practiced this way he won't be able to maintain it.

So...on to desperation.

In mix try this... first compression agressive try to see if you can get a comp to suck the top off and even the overall sound. Fast attack times can sometimes do this. This has worked for me in the past better than anything but, often it doesn't work at all.
next, I would try eq, boosting with a tight Q, sweeping till you find what you don't like, cut heavy, widen Q for desired results.
2.5k-3.5k, 6k-8k, are ranges I find ugliness. Also, a high cut might be in order. Be careful not to hose the rest of the kit. And you may want to mic the HH to recover it from the damage above.

BTW: I am a hack.



DPasch

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Apart from all the previous suggestions i can ***** heartedly recommend 3 compressors to add to the soup....

Manley variable MU

Urei 1178

Al Smart c2

Use them direct during tracking or on a mult of the OH


Cheers
Wiggy

[XHipHop]

A few times i've used some plugin distortions to darken my overhead tracks. This is a hit or miss type of thing because no two plugins or settings have ever really worked for me. I just play around until i get it right. This tends to give me a foo fighters type of drum sound..which might not be what you are going for.

Logic's bitcrusher has also changed the sound of some of my overheads.

[Heterodox]

Renting is a waste of money...

Buy as many cymbals as you want from Guitar Center...

Return them.

Free.

YaY.

[Chad]

Originally posted by Heterodox
Renting is a waste of money...

Buy as many cymbals as you want from Guitar Center...

Return them.

Free.

YaY.

That is wrong. And plus, their return policy is that the item is returned in as new condition. Its pretty easy to see if a cymbol was beat on in a session or not. No matter if you support GC or not, its wrong to abuse any retailers return policy in that way.

[bjornson]

"Renting is a waste of money...

Buy as many cymbals as you want from Guitar Center...

Return them.

Free."


ouch... your kidding right?

[joeq]

I think you'll have to pay a restocking fee...

[Heterodox]

Eh, I'm not sure if I agree.

Granted, in the strictest sense of things it is a "sin" to abuse a policy - megacorporation or not...

But I will be the first to say I steal from Walmart all the time, and could care less. I am the last person you'll get to care about ripping off a faceless megacorp. They have all the priviledges of a single citizen, and all the immunities of a corporation. Their billion dollar bottom line is hardly affected by my antics, or those like me.

I find that on almost all occasions, GC staff hardly know anything about the gear they are selling. Or maybe the problem is they DO know about it... I can't count how many poor saps I've seen being conned into thinking Behringer will solve all of their problems. Granted, there are some great people working there (I know at least one awesome guy working at Austin GC)...but it doesn't change the fact.

Aside from all of that (I think the moral value is a subjective opinion), the "in new condition" thing is pretty lackluster at GC. I know a couple of people who buy/return cymbals. Certain cymbals have 2 year replacement policies too. You can break the cymbal and get a completely new one from the manufacturer - then return that. I think Ziljian is doing just fine for themselves, with or without the 2% of customers "ripping them off".

Its really up to the end user to take advantage of (read: abuse) such setups. But, in a corporate bubblegum based business, I for one have no qualms with abusing policies. I'll save my money to give to the genuinely interested boutique shops around town. Mom and Pop can have my money any day before Mr. Faceless.

Lets try not to thread-jack though, as that was not the purpose of my post. All other opinions are, of course, welcome.

[Chad]

dfegad Heterodox,
You are clearly a senceless fool..... were you get the idea that because a corporation has grown to be so successfull, you have the right to steal from them. I dont shop at wallmart. They move into a town, put all the local family owned stores out of business. I try and support those small business. But I dont go and steal from Walmart , just because I dont respect what they do. Its all about principal. I stand on my principals by not supporting them. Im not trying to defend any one business, but to foolishly post your rediculous "values", if you call them that, only reflects on you. How can someone respect your principal when you show it by robbing someone! You have about 200 post, that none of which I have seen has shown any real knowledge or usefullness, frankly most of them have been downright foolish! I think this one tops it all off. No real sucess is gained by being a theif.

[Kenny Gioia]

I recorded a Death Metal Band who bought a Bass and 2 guitars the day of the session and returned it all when the session was over.

I'm sorry but this is just wrong. Someone else is going to be buying those instruments as new.

If you don't like the big companies than at least think of the 4th grade school band kid who has to play his brand new trumpet that you already spit through.

Karma.

[bjornson]

Hey at least your honest about being dishonest.... very punk rock..

[Heterodox]

lol...

Well thank you Chad. Its all so clear to me now that I'm a senseless fool. I appreciate your complete turning of a conversation into a public rating of my stupdity. Unfortunately that's not what this thread NOR this forum is about...so how about keeping it civil and discussing whats being discussed?
Geez, how did I know an ethics sub-conversation would immediately turn to name calling? Predictable...

Now back to the regularly scheduled program:

were you get the idea that because a corporation has grown to be so successfull, you have the right to steal from them.

Because they got successful by stealing from us - at least in a matter of speaking. Selling mass produced rip off brands like behringer and using cut-throat, strongarm pricing techniques is hardly amiable behavior. And in Walmart's case, taking out huge life insurance policies on your elderly workers? ****ing over every independent business owner for miles? Scandal after scandal?

Two wrongs surely don't make a right, but stealing from Walmart isn't going to HURT Mom and Pop. I'd really suggest you do some reading on the subject of corporate power systems, political influence, etc...and how they relate to everyone. I personally don't see ANY multibillion dollar corporation as "human," and thus ethics don't apply.

On a simpler note, there is enough money being horded (read: going unused) by Walmart to set up sophisticated music programs at every public school in the United States. Lets not even start to count the cash being sat on by Big Tobacco and a variety of other socially accepted thieves...

Produceher - I think (<--- opinion) you're being a little too "strict" about the situation. In reality, the instruments they bought were probably played LESS in your session than in the total time they'd been on the shelf. I'd go so far as to say the the strings were probably replaced pre-session, and they sounded better when returned than the originals. In all fairness, if the instruments were in no way tarnished or broken, what's the problem? Little Johnny in 4th grade is not going to experience adverse effects from your day of use. Shit...I'd be excited to hear a "REAL BAND" had recorded in a "REAL STUDIO" with MY BASS as a little kid. Think about it...being used certainly hasn't seemed to affect vintage Gibsons has it? Food for thought.

Now wasn't this thread originally about how to darken a cymbal sound?

I think the best way to achieve the sound you're going for would be to: INSERT STANDARD STUPID HETERODOX COMMENT HERE.

Oh, and thanks for peeing on me Chad. Classy.

[Chad]

You dont get it. Thats just how people like you are I guess. Your the one who started the thread going this way with your great "renting" suggestion....

[Heterodox]

"You don't get it" is your opinion, which you are entitled 100% to have. I personally feel I DO "get it."

It's called a difference of opinion, which is just fine.

But I'd ask that if you have any more generic, defacing comments to direct at me - you'd use the email button.

Thanks,
-bryan

[stef himself]

amen!

[natpub]

whoa....

[big kenny]

Chad wins by a landslide! H has a totally non- defensible position

For the cymbal thing....... try different mic placement (under rather than overheads), different mics (darker), or heavy compression
In His Name
Big Kenny
p.s. Hope ya get caught!

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Heterodox


But I will be the first to say I steal from Walmart all the time, and could care less. I am the last person you'll get to care about ripping off a faceless megacorp. They have all the priviledges of a single citizen, and all the immunities of a corporation. Their billion dollar bottom line is hardly affected by my antics, or those like me.

Well, I could argue that you're ripping of my aunt, who's in her 80's now (she owns a few shares of Walmart). You could also argue that you're stealing from those people you think Walmart's screwing over - the employees; they do have employee stock options, even for the hourly employees.

I could also make the argument that no one who thinks that stealig is OK becuase they don't know the owner of the products would be welcome in any studio that I know of, nor would I care to work with such a person.

While I have issues with the company (and I suspect that the late Sam Walton would as well), I certainly don't consider theft an appropriate way to show my feelings. You're not making a protest - you're a thief. And deserve to be treated as one.

You're in Round Rock - you know, I presume, that Michael Dell's predatory business practices have put an untold number of computer resellers out of business. Do you feel justified in, say, hijacking a Dell truck?

[bloodsweatfire]

I see why this thread grew.
Here is another simple obversation. You are a thief.

Guitar Center makes money so...your the victim?

Reminds me of the fool who bombs abortion clinics in order to save the lives of children.

[Jason Poulin]

haha

Walmart

Items there too pricy for you Heterodox?

I don't think the ladies would appreciate purchasing women's lingerie after you wore them and returned them after a whole night of dancing


You rule fuuck

Jason

[Heterodox]

Its some good points Dave, but I personally feel they are a bit out of proportion.

Your Aunt isn't going to be affected by my eating a 99 cent cliff bar from Walmart. The company makes multi-multi-multi-billions, theft accounted for, and shares aren't going to be adversely affected to any noticeable degree. I think you have a better chance at hearing a difference in a $300 AC cable than hurting Walmart's stock. In addition (and this is very tongue in cheek, absolutely no offense intended) I woudn't neccessarily mind if I hurt someone's Walmart stock. By owning stock in the company you are directly supporting it and all of its planetary/social/economic destruction. This, in my very humble opinion, is WORSE than stealing from Walmart. Its stealing from the world. Walmart/Dell/Clearchannel/CBS/Starbucks/Mass Consumer Whorism is the devil. Call me an Anarchist...eh...

I disagree with your "stealing isn't ok because you don't know the 'owner' of the products" statement. This is such a fallacy that has been beaten into everyone by consumer culture - THERE IS NO OWNER! A corporation is NOT a person. There is no end user. There is no Purple Audio engineer working hours to make products for a market he deeply enjoys working in. Its a conglomerate of stock holders' money being shuffled around and completely abstracted politicians in business suits choosing how to use it. There is no human being behind the faceless corporation - and that should SCARE someone...not inspire sympathy. Along those lines, the "not being allowed into a studio" thing is a little overboard to me. I'm not advocating stealing in the first place, just advocating my opinion on taking from faceless corps. You're over simplifying it to make it sound like "Just because I don't know the owner of a studio, I don't see it as a legitimate business and will proceed to steal everything in sight." This is just complete hyperbole, and 180 degrees from the truth.

I also disagree with the "You're not making a protest. You're a thief" comment. I am, in fact, directly protesting. Laws are man-made, and disobeying them is a fundamental part of rising against any power. We're socially conditioned to accept popular law/culture as "all that is good and bad." I prefer to believe in the powers of being, rather than the powers that be.

Yes, I live in Round Rock (well actually I've moved to Austin recently)...and you know what? I probably wouldn't mind if a Dell truck was jacked. Mind you *I* wouldn't do it, but I wouldn't condemn anyone that did. The atrocities that company have taken part in are absolutely horrid. There are many information-spreading programs around Round Rock with relation to this crap. Check out Dell's resistance to computer recycling (and how many ****ing TONS of landfills they personally make...and not all in america either). Check out their COMPLETELY ****ed up prison program Unicor....how much will a company do to save money?

bloadsweatfire: I'd really appreciate it if you didn't compare me to an abortion clinic bomber...that's just absolutely completely unrelated - and just a spiteful comment in general.

---

Again I will state, FACELESS MULTI-BILLION-DOLLAR CORPORATIONS (read: not just any business) are not human in my eyes, and thus any sort of human to human interaction ethics do not apply. These companys have no moral/social/economical/environmental agenda other than to make money. They will do whatever they can to cash in, even if it borders legality. They will only cease atrocious actions when enough people catch wind and complain...then they will simply find something else atrocious to do. Nike and the like can go **** themselves for exploiting my fellow human beings, and my planet in general. No one is ever singularly in charge...which is why there is never anyone to blame...which is why they can get away with such horrendous bullshit.

Call me a thief if you like...but I fear we should really end this thread - I don't think I'll be able to dodge all of the rocks soon.

I'm a thief. Ok.

Here's to a world run by Clearchannel, Walmart, Microsoft, Dell and Nike ... Gee, I'm so excited to live in THEIR ethical wonderland.

-bryan

[bloodsweatfire]

bloadsweatfire: I'd really appreciate it if you didn't compare me to an abortion clinic bomber...that's just absolutely completely unrelated - and just a spiteful comment in general.

Bryan, no spite at all, your logic is simply the same. You have 'judged' the big corporation as wrong and evil, therefore you are JUSTIFIED to steal from them.
Makes you no different than them.

It's your world, it's your life and you get to live in whatever world yuo create for yourself. I choose to be honest.

Blood

[drundall]

Originally posted by bloodsweatfire
You have 'judged' the big corporation as wrong and evil, therefore you are JUSTIFIED to steal from them.

This is exactly the mindset you'll find if you question kids who are downloading tunes. The problem is, it's the bands they like who are getting hammered.


Oh yeah, try using a darker mic, like a ribbon. You might want to try a thicker, slower pre that you normally wouldn't use for OH's, like maybe an old beatup Neve or Quad8.

[Heterodox]

bloodsweatfire: it is really not an appropriate anology. You're likening "stealing" fractions of fractions worth of a penny from a faceless corporate entity focused solely on making money, to KILLING innoncent people in a business that is dedicated to helping people in a crisis. You can't simply equate A to B like that. And even if an abortion clinic was a greedy, faceless corporation...you're still talking about KILLING. Stealing "property" from a faceless entity is not even in the same ballpark as KILLING an actual human being. I think we can all see how much those are actually related...

I haven't really "judged" the corps. Judgement is emotional, and often opinion based. I've looked at their deeds and weighed the facts and realized that they are currently one of the major contributors to the dehumanization and commercialization this century is giving birth to. Its not a judgement, its a simple choice not to support such entities - and even a choice to go so far as to actively defy them. You say my stealing is no different than them...this is inherently wrong. It IS actually quintessentially different in that:

A - I choose to defy a faceless corporation by petty theft.

B - Said faceless corporation chooses to defy humanity itself by mass theft...stealing from REAL people and a REAL planet everyday.


Again, another analogy that I think does not fit is the "downloading tunes" thing. Kids aren't sitting there saying "Oh lets screw Sony and steal this music because its such a horrible corporation." Kids are saying "Hey I like this new single and I can get it in 5 seconds off Kazaa." Its not even a targetted action. Calling them theives is akin to calling pot smokers "Terrorist supporters." Its really a multifaceted situation that involves quite a few 'innoncent' people who aren't TRYING to rip somebody off. Of course we're even overlooking the value of sampling CDs before you buy (which plenty of downloaders DO - myself included). The whole music system is completely ****ed right now anyhow, and definitely NOT a good place to be for the artist - downloaders or not. They say downloading is illegal - well welcome to stage one of the musical uprising... DISOBEDIENCE. As I said before, change starts when you actively disobey man-made laws. The system is losing control, and the system always gets scared when it starts to lose control. Sadly, they manage to inspire this fear in everyone, and suddenly you'll find thousands of people supporting and sympathizing for a corporation founded on greed.

The lines that were once so clear begin to blur, and suddenly this corporate sympathy has led to me being called a complete idiot, and likened to an abortion clinic bomber (murderer!) - by intelligent, sane human beings. Case in point.

-bryan