Studio musicians - Via FTP/Internet

[quietdrive]

I am thinking about going that route for one of my upcoming projects. It's simply less expensive, cause I'll be hiring people who can do all of the recordings alone at their homes. So no cost for a big studio, engineer, travel costs, hotel, etc, etc...

Anyone recorded an entire project, or at least parts of it that way? What were your experiences? Would you do it again? Any problems you encountered?

[tuRnitUpsuM]

quietdrive


been meaning to start a thread like this... glad ya did.... ...maybe we can get some info together...

just curious... which platform do u run? PC? MAC?

cheers



any takers??

[firby]

Do you need drums ? .... I am just sayin ....

[AlexLakis]

This can be a great way to go, but you have to make sure you pick the right players. Some of these "from home" session players tend to take more personal liberties with your material. When a session player enters a studio, they are under the gun, playing on your dollar, and have a producer yelling at them every step of the way. When they do it from home, they're on their own time, and don't have a producer telling them what to play along the way. Therefore, I'd make especially sure you find someone who is on the same page as you are, or at least will agree to play the parts EXACTLY as you have written them. I've actually had "professional" session players refuse to do this. What a joke.

Anyways, this can be a great way to go. Just make sure you find someone who knows their role and can play it well.

[andrewj]

not toforget that you have no influence about the used cables, mic pres, eqs comps, interfaces...

I do not know if you care about that, but hey, this is gearslutz, so you probably do!

Or will you send your Manley VoxBox to a guitarist un the ukraine to record some licks?

[JonCraig]

we do this regularly for demo work. acoustic & elec guitar, dobro, mando, banjo, percussion, some drums. the players give LOTS and LOTS of options. it's pretty amazing the amount of material you can get for just $100 or $200. if you'd like some names and contact info, send me a PM.

--jon

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

Therefore, I'd make especially sure you find someone who is on the same page as you are, or at least will agree to play the parts EXACTLY as you have written them. I've actually had "professional" session players refuse to do this. What a joke.

i couldn't disagree more. if you have a REAL player, that is, someone you already have a working relationship with, or at teh very least comes with a recommendation you can trust, you don't have to worry about what they're going to give you.

even in a tracking situation, where you're under the gun, and the budget is being stretched, REAL players will give you amazing material out of their own heads. now, if it's a different feel that what you have in mind, you simply tell them that, and the next take is what you had in mind. when you start to micro-produce, you end up with the same old crap, 'cause the players know you're not willing to let them do what they do, which is play!

now, that feedback that you'd give in a studio situation may be less when you just drop off a DVD. but it's easy to say, "the artist is thinking of a jeff buckley kinda thing." and i've never gotten a session back that didn't have 3 or 4 completely different ideas. we're talking getting 3 of each instrument to pick from. and typically, the verses are slightly different on each take, so if you really like the sus7 that he did in verse 2, you just fly that back to verse 1.

to ask a player of this caliber to play *exactly* what is written is pretty unreasonable, i'd say. it's akin to telling michelangelo exactly how the chapel should be painted.

--jon

[emkay]

I have had both good and sometimes weird experiences with FTP. My main instrument is drums. I am in Logic 7 Pro and normally the recipients at the other end are Logic or Pro Tools. A few times at the pro tools end, there was a "timing" anomoly---not latency but actually a "tempo" corruption--very slight but enough to screw shit up. Still can't explain that one. A hip hop guy in Paris running Cubase sent his tracks to me as an MP3 (said he preferred the "lo fi" vibe). After my drum track was done, I sent my AIFF to the synth guy in New York. There was definitely a problem by the time it got back to Paris! His original MP3 sounded like shit! Still don't get that one! Never thought there was "generation degredation" in digital----if that's what it was? Anyways, it never ceases to amaze me, when I can get up in the AM in LA, go into my room in my PJ's and coffee int hand, record til it's right, and sent it off to someone already drinking cocktails at the other end.The only thing missing are the guys showing up late and catching up on the latest "session jokes".
Try it "You'll like it"! ........peace?

[emkay]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

i couldn't disagree more. if you have a REAL player, that is, someone you already have a working relationship with, or at teh very least comes with a recommendation you can trust, you don't have to worry about what they're going to give you.

even in a tracking situation, where you're under the gun, and the budget is being stretched, REAL players will give you amazing material out of their own heads. now, if it's a different feel that what you have in mind, you simply tell them that, and the next take is what you had in mind. when you start to micro-produce, you end up with the same old crap, 'cause the players know you're not willing to let them do what they do, which is play!

now, that feedback that you'd give in a studio situation may be less when you just drop off a DVD. but it's easy to say, "the artist is thinking of a jeff buckley kinda thing." and i've never gotten a session back that didn't have 3 or 4 completely different ideas. we're talking getting 3 of each instrument to pick from. and typically, the verses are slightly different on each take, so if you really like the sus7 that he did in verse 2, you just fly that back to verse 1.

to ask a player of this caliber to play *exactly* what is written is pretty unreasonable, i'd say. it's akin to telling michelangelo exactly how the chapel should be painted.

--jon

I agree with your post with the exception of your last comment. Just finished reading "Michelangelo and the Pope's Ceiling". The title pretty much tells it all. As much of a genius as "Mike" was, the guy in the pointy red shoes was calling the shots!......peace?

[andrews]

I used these guys last summer and it worked out great. I sent mp3s for reference and got back the isolated unmixed broadcast wav files of the new parts to import. I suppose some of it gets down to the kind of music you do and the kinds of parts you need.

http://www.trycho.com/trychostore/ca...&Category_ID=5

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

to ask a player of this caliber to play *exactly* what is written is pretty unreasonable, i'd say. it's akin to telling michelangelo exactly how the chapel should be painted.

couldnt agree more.. (eg) the drum and bass parts i come up with in pre-production isnt what I expect to end up on the final recording of the song. I am not a bass player or drummer. Thats why I hire professional studio musicians.. to take MY ideas to a new level, and to mold them into something that works for the song.

[tuRnitUpsuM]

Don't mean to cut in on quietdrive's time here....


JonCraig.......AlexLakis


you both make some very good points... i guess finding the right balance between the points will dictate wether or not it'll work out... ( much like anything really ...no?).

like to touch up on what JonCraig was indicating about the "right"players and parts expected as such....

AlexLakis........ i was kinda really thinking in this approach.....you get unexpected but welcoming results because you dont necessarily have that control... and what you experience from their end.... is exactly that.... their perspective....

emkay

very cool.... and is a big big reason...as well as stated above...to get into this sort of approach.... AM, PM ...it dont matter....wake up and record.... the reciever gets the takes....when they feel ready to "get down to business" on their own time....

that digital transfer fiasco ... is kinda what makes me nervous... although just have to resend right? ...its all backed up anyhow....or at least should be.....


Another question if I may,,,,


do your opinions change if ....say.....using this approach for receiving MIX work? as opposed to tracking collaborations...??? id be interested in this approach (ftp...sharing)....for both types of applications.... kinda a secluded studio....yet have access to the world this way.


cheers for all the input....from everyone.... and my apologys to quietdrive if im steering YOUR thread in a direction... not native to your YOUR ambition.

i wont be on much longer..... so my apologys if i do not reply quickly..

[John Suitcase]

I've done a couple projects like this, and the only caveats that I can think of are:

1. Send the player a stereo submix of the track, in the format you want their tracks back, ie AIFF, 24bit, 44.1khz or whatever.

2. I like to include a click or something which I ask them to copy to the start of their tracks, or make sure they start their tracks at the same starting point as your originals. This just makes it easier to align them in your project.

3. For guitar and bass, ask the player to include a DI track, so you can reamp at your end if necessary.

4. With drums, I'd prefer close mics for everything, again so I can replace sounds, if necessary.

5. Make sure you get something in writing saying they are doing a work for hire, so there are no copyright issues with any original ideas they may have contributed (unless you want to share publishing rights, of course.)

6. Work to a click, and include the click track, if you don't have drums down yet!



Overall, this approach does open up a lot of opportunities for remote collaboration, I think it's an indicator of things to come!

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

i couldn't disagree more. if you have a REAL player, that is, someone you already have a working relationship with, or at teh very least comes with a recommendation you can trust, you don't have to worry about what they're going to give you.

even in a tracking situation, where you're under the gun, and the budget is being stretched, REAL players will give you amazing material out of their own heads. now, if it's a different feel that what you have in mind, you simply tell them that, and the next take is what you had in mind. when you start to micro-produce, you end up with the same old crap, 'cause the players know you're not willing to let them do what they do, which is play!

now, that feedback that you'd give in a studio situation may be less when you just drop off a DVD. but it's easy to say, "the artist is thinking of a jeff buckley kinda thing." and i've never gotten a session back that didn't have 3 or 4 completely different ideas. we're talking getting 3 of each instrument to pick from. and typically, the verses are slightly different on each take, so if you really like the sus7 that he did in verse 2, you just fly that back to verse 1.

to ask a player of this caliber to play *exactly* what is written is pretty unreasonable, i'd say. it's akin to telling michelangelo exactly how the chapel should be painted.

--jon

I whole-heartly agree, Jon. A great session player should be able to crank out awesome parts without much direction or input from the producer/songwriter. Also, that is part of why you hire a session player: for their input! And I think you should allow that player to give their input. Sometimes, you'll wind up with something better than what you originally envisioned. Ideally, in an FTP situation, you would get a couple different performances to choose from. One just as you've written it, one with slight deviation, and then one or two based solely on what that player hears/feels they should play.

However, sometimes, it just comes down to what the producer/songwriter wants. And that doesn't always result in "the same old crap." Sometimes you hire a player of high calibur because they can play exactly what you tell them to. Not always the best idea, but sometimes, you're looking for a particular thing, and you just might *GASP* have a better idea of what should be played than the player!

Personally, although not a drummer primarily, I can write every single last hit for the drums, depending on the song. I spend weeks on it. I pride myself on it, and I consider myself pretty darn good. Plus, I have vision for the song, which I would like to maintain. Some songs, I'll write the drum parts verbatim. Other songs, I'll be very open to other ideas. It all depends. I have hired professional (multi-major label/platinum) drummers for projects who have happily played exactly what I told them to, and the results were great! I've also hired drummers who basically wrote the drum part for the entire song. Same great results.

But when a professional session player REFUSES to play what you ask, at that moment, they cease to be a "professional" in my book. I actually worked with a guy who not only refused to play the parts as they were written, but also refused to be edited (and I'm not even talking Beat Detective here, I'm talking simple cut and paste/arrangement/alternate playlist stuff!) And this is after he played the wrong parts with loose timing! That is ludicrous, and he was fired from the project. Great drummer, good guy (I even paid him,) bad attitude.

In summary, again, make sure the people you hire are on the same page, and are willing to deliver the goods you ask for. In general, I'd suggest hiring a pro with a proven track record who's work you are a fan of, give them a simple demo (with a click track), and let them handle the rest/do their job.

Good luck!

[emkay]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

I've done a couple projects like this, and the only caveats that I can think of are:

1. Send the player a stereo submix of the track, in the format you want their tracks back, ie AIFF, 24bit, 44.1khz or whatever.

2. I like to include a click or something which I ask them to copy to the start of their tracks, or make sure they start their tracks at the same starting point as your originals. This just makes it easier to align them in your project.

3. For guitar and bass, ask the player to include a DI track, so you can reamp at your end if necessary.

4. With drums, I'd prefer close mics for everything, again so I can replace sounds, if necessary.

5. Make sure you get something in writing saying they are doing a work for hire, so there are no copyright issues with any original ideas they may have contributed (unless you want to share publishing rights, of course.)

6. Work to a click, and include the click track, if you don't have drums down yet!



Overall, this approach does open up a lot of opportunities for remote collaboration, I think it's an indicator of things to come!

All very valid and practical points.......

[The dman]

Just a heads up to let you guys know I just started a site for this. A forum for player,artists and songwriters to hook up working across the net, check my signature. It's just starting up and I know if I can get enough involvement from people it could be a cool thing.

I agree that a capable player should be able to deliver excellent tracks even if your not there but if I want to give direction it's not so bad talking through Skype and MSN Live during the session. I've even written songs with people this way

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

I whole-heartly agree, Jon. A great session player should be able to crank out awesome parts without much direction or input from the producer/songwriter.... However...Sometimes you hire a player of high calibur because they can play exactly what you tell them to. Not always the best idea, but sometimes, you're looking for a particular thing, and you just might *GASP* have a better idea of what should be played than the player!

absolutely! i think we're in agreement; they are 2 different production styles, and both are equally valid--just depends on the level of involvement of the producer, and how firm of an idea he has in his head. i've heard stories of mutt langue doing exactly what you're saying, dictating parts note for note. and it's obviously worked for him!

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

But when a professional session player REFUSES to play what you ask, at that moment, they cease to be a "professional" in my book. I actually worked with a guy who not only refused to play the parts as they were written, but also refused to be edited (and I'm not even talking Beat Detective here, I'm talking simple cut and paste/arrangement/alternate playlist stuff!)

yes, i agree. they are hired to do what you ask of them (within reason, of course... you wouldn't hire a drummer to clean our your gutters or anything ). whether or not to edit, etc. is a production decision, made by the producer--not a hired player.

--jon

[John Suitcase]

Originally Posted by dsd

Just a heads up to let you guys know I just started a site for this. A forum for player,artists and songwriters to hook up working across the net, check my signature. It's just starting up and I know if I can get enough involvement from people it could be a cool thing.

I agree that a capable player should be able to deliver excellent tracks even if your not there but if I want to give direction it's not so bad talking through Skype and MSN Live during the session. I've even written songs with people this way

Cool idea, I thought about doing somthing similar. It seems like your site is a bit slow, response time wise. Who are you hosting it with?

Also, if I were doing a site like this, I might include a straight up directory, with searchable fields. So if I'm looking for a lapsteel player, who will work for under $100/song, etc., I could just search and get a list. Then, I should be able to go through the list and hear samples of their work, via mp3, or whatever, make contact, etc. Ideally you could provide file hosting/transfer, modeled after yousendit.com, or straight ftp...

I think the bbs set-up is easy to do, but I don't know if you'll get people posting, and if they do, it will be a bit difficult to find the people you want to connect with. Especially if you get to where you have thousands or tens-of-thousands of users.

Are you a web-developer, or do you know any? My previous business was an online venture, I'm sure I could put you in touch with people, if you have a few dollars to throw at the project...

[majortom]

Originally Posted by emkay

I have had both good and sometimes weird experiences with FTP. My main instrument is drums. I am in Logic 7 Pro and normally the recipients at the other end are Logic or Pro Tools. A few times at the pro tools end, there was a "timing" anomoly---not latency but actually a "tempo" corruption--very slight but enough to screw shit up. Still can't explain that one. A hip hop guy in Paris running Cubase sent his tracks to me as an MP3 (said he preferred the "lo fi" vibe). After my drum track was done, I sent my AIFF to the synth guy in New York. There was definitely a problem by the time it got back to Paris! His original MP3 sounded like shit! Still don't get that one! Never thought there was "generation degredation" in digital----if that's what it was? Anyways, it never ceases to amaze me, when I can get up in the AM in LA, go into my room in my PJ's and coffee int hand, record til it's right, and sent it off to someone already drinking cocktails at the other end.The only thing missing are the guys showing up late and catching up on the latest "session jokes".
Try it "You'll like it"! ........peace?

FTP by itself shouldn't corrupt your data, but it is possible with a bad coded server or client. If you compress your files with a ZIP or RAR program it will add a checksum. If the checksum comes out right when it's decompressed then nothing changed in the transfer. That isn't to say that you won't have issues with people using different formats and DAW applications, but it eliminates one problem at least.

I've had some success working with remote session drummers, BTW. Just, on my own stuff. I usually program a scratch track first, so they can get some idea of what I'm looking for.

[firby]

Well. I can play to a click and have done these things before. Writing every single beat and musical exression is more akin to playing in a symphony. A symphony works because there is a conductor moving the piece along and adding expression and nuance and generally tweaking the performance. There is a great tradition of fantastic players doing just this kind of thing out on the west coast.

Most sessions I have been too that are structured at all tend to look like a jazz chart which has tempo feel and the form with horn licks or whatever penciled over the appropiate bars which means set these up and don't miss these. I think that the better studio musicians (drummers) are generally schooled. At my college we traded big band charts actively to learn the craft of reading a chart. perhaps this is a regional thing but I don't gather it is. If you are writing the fills out note for note you may be making the session take longer or tarnishing a performance that could have come out better than you could have imagined. Playing studio gigs a a craft and the old cats can wrap up things you did not even think was possible if you stay out of their way and let them play.

As far as I go, if you are paying me by the hour I will play every square fill and downbeat laden beat that you have written to the best of my ability and take the money with a broad nice-guy smile and say "Thank you sir, Here is my card". Because that's the gig!

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by firby

As far as I go, if you are paying me by the hour I will play every square fill and downbeat laden beat that you have written to the best of my ability and take the money with a broad nice-guy smile and say "Thank you sir, Here is my card". Because that's the gig!

thumbsup the guy with the checkbook is always in charge!

--jon

[A440]

Just for your information, some colleagues and myself have an online session musicians agency www.sessionsonline.co.uk. Alll enquiries most welcome, and of course we have the attitude that the client is always King

[emkay]

Originally Posted by majortom

FTP by itself shouldn't corrupt your data, but it is possible with a bad coded server or client. If you compress your files with a ZIP or RAR program it will add a checksum. If the checksum comes out right when it's decompressed then nothing changed in the transfer. That isn't to say that you won't have issues with people using different formats and DAW applications, but it eliminates one problem at least.

I've had some success working with remote session drummers, BTW. Just, on my own stuff. I usually program a scratch track first, so they can get some idea of what I'm looking for.

Thanks for the info--those "glitches" are still a mystery. And yeah, most of the time I'll get a guide track (just simple drums), sometimes just a music stem and sometimes they play the "vibe" over the phone and then tell me the BPM and I take it from there. It's all so cool when you think about what it took to put a session together not so long ago. I only "miss" it when I get called in to do "the real thing"----still gotta say, short of the convenience of "FTP sessions", there's still nothing like "the real deal"-----cheers

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

yes, i agree. they are hired to do what you ask of them (within reason, of course... you wouldn't hire a drummer to clean our your gutters or anything )

"Okay, we're done with the drums, nice playing! Now, run to 7-11 and pick up some red bull and rolling papers while we lay down the guitars!"

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

"Okay, we're done with the drums, nice playing! Now, run to 7-11 and pick up some red bull and rolling papers while we lay down the guitars!"

hahah... not to start drummer jokes... but do you think he'd get in his car, or physically run?

--jon

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

hahah... not to start drummer jokes... but do you think he'd get in his car, or physically run?

--jon

Run, he doesn't like to drive more than he absolutely has to because his timing belt is off.

[JonCraig]

hahahaha!

i was going to say he'd have to run because he sure as hell didn't drive himself to the gig.

--jon

[boosh]

I've been doing this for about 8 years now and I have some advice,........

Make sure the backingtrack you send them has a large or loud beep( a sine wave or something like that),...just a single note on the first count of the first bar,.. than 2 bars no sound and than begin the song,...

That way you never have problems lining up the tracks.

Make sure the other party records his/her track not going over -12db,.. that's a good level for recording to a daw 24/48.

No effects.

Mono or stereo you decide,... but if they're not that experienced let them do it mono.

Being it the 21st century and broadband age,... forget about mp3,.... just transfer wavs via yahoo,messenger,sendit.com or similar services.

Boosh

[bigbone]

I'M doing that alots, sending track via FTP site, ( i'm a drummer )
i even did some track and album for a few gearsluter in here
and i use .MAC to send my file, ( i use logic as a DAW ) you can downlod 1 GIG
of data with .MAC... that's alots ......
and i never had any issue or probleme............

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by boosh

No effects.

I might leave that up to the player. I've worked with FTP players before who have some KILLER gear and know how to use it. thumbsup

I wouldn't let them put reverb on the snare or anything like that, tho. And for guitars/bass, an additional clean DI track is the way to go.