When songwriting and production collide

[Gregg Sartiano]

If the chorus is THAT good, call up your friend...the artist with the record deal -- or his/her manager, and say, "I've got this hit chorus I wanna run past you..."

If they DO like it and they DO finish it off with you, you'll end up on the record as co-writer. They'll fight for the song 'cause it's one of "theirs." And >YOU< won't have to deal with recoupables before getting paid!

Who knows: you may think of the second verse while waiting for them to return your call. It's a classic win/win.

I knew R & B writers who would leave open the bridge for the signed teenage R & B singers to write to for this very reason, figuring if they "wrote" on it, they would fight for it. One writer in particular had a VERY nice car, if you catch my drift...

[slick0]

Nice topic! I have the same thing happen to me quite a bit. Unless I come up with an entire song around the moment I come up with the first part I think up, especially if recording it, there's probably less than a 10% chance it will ever be finished. For me, the only thing I'm really able to do is force myself to finish what I've started right away. Otherwise, it just gets lost in time. It's hard for me to schedule myself to just sit down and finish something.. It's gotta come with whatever feeling I had while creating the riff/song initially. Otherwise, to me it just seems like something will be missing.

[juicylime]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

If the chorus is THAT good, call up your friend...the artist with the record deal -- or his/her manager, and say, "I've got this hit chorus I wanna run past you..."

If they DO like it and they DO finish it off with you, you'll end up on the record as co-writer. They'll fight for the song 'cause it's one of "theirs." And >YOU< won't have to deal with recoupables before getting paid!

Who knows: you may think of the second verse while waiting for them to return your call. It's a classic win/win.

I knew R & B writers who would leave open the bridge for the signed teenage R & B singers to write to for this very reason, figuring if they "wrote" on it, they would fight for it. One writer in particular had a VERY nice car, if you catch my drift...

That sounds like a great scenario. Maybe in LA, or knowing the folks in LA, makes that a little easier to pull off than in Ireland!

[juicylime]

Originally Posted by slick0

Nice topic! I have the same thing happen to me quite a bit. Unless I come up with an entire song around the moment I come up with the first part I think up, especially if recording it, there's probably less than a 10% chance it will ever be finished. For me, the only thing I'm really able to do is force myself to finish what I've started right away. Otherwise, it just gets lost in time. It's hard for me to schedule myself to just sit down and finish something.. It's gotta come with whatever feeling I had while creating the riff/song initially. Otherwise, to me it just seems like something will be missing.

I have a thought on that (and please don't think I'm saying this like I think I'm an expert. I ain't!). I used to be like that and I've decided to change it. I believe that the first burst of artistic inspiration can sometimes bring you all the way over the finishing line but that if you rely on only that you quite simply won't sift through enough sand and grit to find enough golden nuggets. And this is where I believe the art of songwriting is momentarily put aside for the craft of songwriting. If you have the chops/dedication/stubborness to plough on honing and building from the original inspiration I think you're on the right track. It might not feel as dynamic after 3 days of slogging as it did after the first 15 minutes of inspiration BUT, you're doing it and a few weeks/months later you will have forgotten where the inspiration ended and the craft started and all you will hear is a well written, well honed great song. My.02c.

[ronzie]

Is your name Jake by any chance?

Ron Allaire, Skyline

[slick0]

Originally Posted by juicylime

I have a thought on that (and please don't think I'm saying this like I think I'm an expert. I ain't!). I used to be like that and I've decided to change it. I believe that the first burst of artistic inspiration can sometimes bring you all the way over the finishing line but that if you rely on only that you quite simply won't sift through enough sand and grit to find enough golden nuggets. And this is where I believe the art of songwriting is momentarily put aside for the craft of songwriting. If you have the chops/dedication/stubborness to plough on honing and building from the original inspiration I think you're on the right track. It might not feel as dynamic after 3 days of slogging as it did after the first 15 minutes of inspiration BUT, you're doing it and a few weeks/months later you will have forgotten where the inspiration ended and the craft started and all you will hear is a well written, well honed great song. My.02c.

I know exactly what your saying, and you're right. Personally, it can be difficult for me to go back to something unfinished. Once past the whole 'getting started' thing again, it's usually all good. When I have to drag myself past that point and to the finish line though, it's hit and miss... At least at the moment... Sometimes leaving something alone for some time can be the best thing I can do, because listening to it later I'll be thinking "how can I get this sounding good" instead of "how can I get this thing finished." For me, (and I'm realizing more after typing this) it's all the motivational thing. Now of course going back to something means remembering something was there in the first place, but I do run through all my recordings every now and then.

[juicylime]

Originally Posted by ronzie

Is your name Jake by any chance?

Ron Allaire, Skyline

HA!! No it certainly is not! Although truth be told I was almost Jake once. Phew, thank God that didn't happen!

[ronzie]

LOL

Ron Allaire, Skyline

[RBowlin]

I recently saw an interview of James Taylor. He apparently keeps a small pad handy to jot ideas as they come. Sometimes its just a few lines, sometimes more. I think he also has a little recorder of some sort. The few lines often serve as inspiration for more stuff at a later date. I really did get the impression though that songwriting is a craft and often means taking a song to the woodshed more than once in order to get it completed.
The idea of working on a song for months or even years is just foreign to me. Somehow, it just looses its luster after awhile of NOT coming together.
The more I read and learn about successful songwriters though, the more I'm convinced there's a lot more perspiration than inspiration.
So....back to the woodshed for me.

-Rich

[cloudy house]

yeah I agree that songwriting is a craft...like building a table from scratch, or painting a picture...I find that sometimes inspiration gets me started but it's a struggle to finish once that original burst subsides...for me, writing songs are like putting a jigsaw puzzle together. You have the picture on the box and now you have to solve the puzzle by putting the right pieces together, like a mental challenge sometimes it takes a lot of work! I've spent weeks trying to finish a song...I've also come back to an idea months later and been able to find that missing piece

<><
mark

[DontLetMeDrown]

Looks like a lot of slutz suffer from this problem. I just recently made the same rule about only recording finished songs. I have waaaaaaay too many fragments of songs. tutt

[numrologst]

for my band this is what we do:

My buddy(singer/songwriter) in his spare time comes up with ideas and sits in his room and records the idea... Drums, bass, guitar, vox... He usually only has a vocal melody and mutters the vox... THen I come in and listen to all the songs he's got and choose the ones that i think are great.

Then we get together with 2 mics in the room... One of us is playing drums, the other, guitar or bass, and we usually have a random friend come jam on guitar or bass or sometimes drums... We'll record a few takes until it feels right.

Then once we seem to have tempo and arrangement figured out... Then we bring in our session drummer/bass player... He is the best, most off the wall drummer I've heard...ever... So we have the arrangement and the drum ideas.

And now we are in my studio. We let him work his magic on drums and bass... At this point, hi magic usually turns the song into something a little different.

Now we have the core of the rhythm section..> Then it's up to us to play the rest of it. I usually mic up every instrument i can... Piano, synth collection, toy piano, vibraphone, electric pianos, multiple guitar cabs, banjo, mandolin, sitar, hand drums, shakers, noise makers, noise machines...etc.etc.etc...

Then it's all up to us to fill out the rest of the song on the fly. And we are able to play off of eachother... And we keep eachother grounded in reality.

After the song is developed, then he takes the song and mulls it over and finished writing the lyrics.


So, i basically think it takes 2 to tango with making music

[uncle duncan]

If you're writing by yourself, the production end can actually be a trap. You take your initial idea and build upon it until you have a song structure in place. You solidify your melody and perhaps your lyrics. Suddenly, you initial idea is set in stone. What if you come back to it and realize that the melody needs to be changed, or the verse needs to be restructured, or you come up with a better way to set up the hook? Basically, because of all the work you've already put into the song, you're not going to want to make any changes.
Steve Seskin, a distinguished songwriter here in the States, gives seminars on the craft. He'll ask a room full of people "How many of you have re-written your lyrics?" Everybody raises their hand. "How many of you have re-written your melody?" Maybe one hand goes up (mine). The point is, you have to let the song tell you what it wants, and if you lock the song in a box of production before you're done writing it, you've cut off the voice of the song, and whatever the song is trying to tell you will be lost.
The solution? Sketch out a demo, but keep it simple. When you run out of ideas for the actual writing of the song, quit producing it and put it aside. Then don't listen to it for a few days, so that when you come back to it, you'll have a fresh perspective, and you'll know exactly what to do. Or not do.
Another trap is the rhythmic structure of the lyrics. Your verse is going along: Dah, da dah, da dah, da dah. Because you're in the groove, you continue on to your chorus, going: Dah, da dah, da dah, da dah. So now you've got a verse and a chorus with the same rhythmic feel in the lyrics. Boring. When you get to the chorus, do the opposite: Daaaaaaaaaaah da da daaaaaaaaaaaa da daaaaaaaaa daaaaaaaaaa. (Plus, you can build a chorus with less lyrics, which makes your job easier.)
Same with your chord structure. If you're changing chords with every measure, do something different in the next section. It's all about giving the listener a reason to pay attention. Bore the listener, and they'll tune out. Reward the listener for paying attention, and they'll reward you with applause, or with money when they buy your CD. Of course you have to stay true to your initial inspiration, but you can also guide your inspiration, keeping in mind these ideas for structure. Consider them tools you use to construct a song. The more tools you have at your disposal, the stronger the song will be.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by juicylime

Also, what about it the other way round when as a producer you're working with an artist and your ideas and suggestions go beyond the merely helpful and step into the realm of re-writing the parts of the song. Ever been there and what happens as a result? Where is the line?

Cool topic. I've been writing for almost 20 years. My approach has changed many times over the years. I've never fought the changes because they've all been fairly natural.

My gear and knowledge of recording have improved/increased over the years by factors in the high thousands! Thus far, it has not hindered my writing (knock on wood). If anything, maybe sometimes I'll get lured off of my original point when recording a finished song, but that is after the writing.

When I was younger (mid teens) and first started writing, I'd sit down with an acoustic guitar and usually bang out a song...start to finish. After I had several done, I'd record them.

In my late teens to mid 20s, when I was mostly writing for and performing with bands, my writing method was similar, except I would iron the songs out with the band. Then we'd record them

Later, I started writing in 'sessions'. I'd start with a guitar or piano and come up with parts. Then I'd go back later (sometimes several times), grab the instrument and finish the song off. Then I'd record it.

Now, in the last 3 to 5 years it has gotten pretty strange (but no less productive). I do it all over a much longer period of time, usually without touching an instrument. Many times I'll come up with the melody on some instrument at one point in the beginning. If I decide it will become a song, I'll put my mind in 'write it' mode. This takes place mostly in pre-sleep, pre-fully-awake, driving and in the shower. It can take as long as a month or more. Then, when I feel mostly done, I'll pick the instrument back up and put it on paper and iron out the nuances.

The bottom line is, I won't even set up the project in my DAW until it is done. This method is actually a blessing. It really keeps my recording/gear sluttyness and creative songwriter-ness separate.

Sorry to ramble. I know no one cares, but I thought I'd share anyhow

[siegfried]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

If you're writing by yourself, the production end can actually be a trap. You take your initial idea and build upon it until you have a song structure in place. You solidify your melody and perhaps your lyrics. Suddenly, you initial idea is set in stone. What if you come back to it and realize that the melody needs to be changed, or the verse needs to be restructured, or you come up with a better way to set up the hook? Basically, because of all the work you've already put into the song, you're not going to want to make any changes.
Steve Seskin, a distinguished songwriter here in the States, gives seminars on the craft. He'll ask a room full of people "How many of you have re-written your lyrics?" Everybody raises their hand. "How many of you have re-written your melody?" Maybe one hand goes up (mine). The point is, you have to let the song tell you what it wants, and if you lock the song in a box of production before you're done writing it, you've cut off the voice of the song, and whatever the song is trying to tell you will be lost.
The solution? Sketch out a demo, but keep it simple. When you run out of ideas for the actual writing of the song, quit producing it and put it aside. Then don't listen to it for a few days, so that when you come back to it, you'll have a fresh perspective, and you'll know exactly what to do. Or not do.
Another trap is the rhythmic structure of the lyrics. Your verse is going along: Dah, da dah, da dah, da dah. Because you're in the groove, you continue on to your chorus, going: Dah, da dah, da dah, da dah. So now you've got a verse and a chorus with the same rhythmic feel in the lyrics. Boring. When you get to the chorus, do the opposite: Daaaaaaaaaaah da da daaaaaaaaaaaa da daaaaaaaaa daaaaaaaaaa. (Plus, you can build a chorus with less lyrics, which makes your job easier.)
Same with your chord structure. If you're changing chords with every measure, do something different in the next section. It's all about giving the listener a reason to pay attention. Bore the listener, and they'll tune out. Reward the listener for paying attention, and they'll reward you with applause, or with money when they buy your CD. Of course you have to stay true to your initial inspiration, but you can also guide your inspiration, keeping in mind these ideas for structure. Consider them tools you use to construct a song. The more tools you have at your disposal, the stronger the song will be.

GREAT post! This problem is very actual for me. If I´m trying to compose music and mixing it during it, the result is unfinished loopy crap. I MUST grab my guitar and brain and compose almost whole song BEFORE mixing. That works for me. But it= s really hard to do it so :( It´s about discipline. IDEA-PARTITION ON MY MIND/GUITAR-TRACKING/MIDI writing-MIXING. THIS is the way which seems to be right for my.

[cloudy house]

yes!! Uncle Duncan makes a great point...CONTRAST will automatically make your songs more listener friendly...it's easy and can be applied to melody, to rhythm, and to harmonic rhythm-the timing of your chord changes...if your verse has a chord change once for every two bars, when the chorus comes in, make it one bar(or vise versa). Will keep the listener interested...love these threads being more of a writer than an engineer!

<><
mark

[The dman]

if your verse has a chord change once for every two bars, when the chorus comes in, make it one bar(or vise versa). Will keep the listener interested...love these threads being more of a writer than an engineer!

I agree it's the subtle things that keep a song interesting be it chord substitutions or small twists that only happens once.

I have a question for you guys. What % of songs that you write make it to completion?

I'm sure every songwriter has a suitcase full of songs that aren't "quite there" yet.

[SurfingMusicMan]

My approach to writing is different in that I employ the DAW extensively. I record scratch tracks of all the intruments in my DAW, building one on top of the other. Usually guitar, then vocals, then bass, then drums. I never worry about mic placement or mic/preamp choice or anything at this point. In fact, I often don’t even use headphones and just record myself singing/playing to the music coming out of the monitors. One rule I abide by, however, is not allowing myself to mess with any sort of mixing during this phase (except for very minor things, e.g. a quick pan) to prevent myself from switching over to the producer side.

After I have all the scratch tracks done, I go back through and rerecord everything “right.” Wahla, the song is tracked. Of course, it usually takes me at least two months to complete that process.

[uncle duncan]

[QUOTE=dsd;1077581]I have a question for you guys. What % of songs that you write make it to completion?QUOTE]
I have a minidisc recorder sitting on my acoustic piano. I record every little snippet of an idea on it, however, I rarely write a whole song while sitting at the piano. Maybe a chorus. Out of all those takes (maybe 100 on a disc) 5 might make it to my DAW. Usually when they get into my DAW they get finished, although they may only get finished in a bare bones format, because they suck. It seems the older I get, the less I write, or write to completion - but the songs are better. In the old days, I would have written every single one of those hundred ideas, and 95 of them would have been throw-aways. So now, I just avoid the extra work.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

It seems the older I get, the less I write, or write to completion - but the songs are better. In the old days, I would have written every single one of those hundred ideas, and 95 of them would have been throw-aways. So now, I just avoid the extra work.

I couldn't agree more. Perhaps this is a 'natural' progression, because it is exactly the same for me!

[juicylime]

Originally Posted by dsd

I have a question for you guys. What % of songs that you write make it to completion?

That's a really hard one to answer and it depends on what you define as the start of a song. I have 8 or 9 A4 notebooks where I've kept nearly everything I've written over the last few years. I'd probably say I've started up to 1000 songs and maybe finished a 100, give or take a few. So that's 10%.

The funny thing is that in some ways I only feel now like I'm starting to get anywhere, not because I've suddenly gotten really good but because I've started seeing what I'm doing wrong. I can now listen to quality songs and the internal anatomy of what makes them good seems clearer to me than ever. Although that doesn't mean it's easy to capture! It just means that I don't waste time moving in a direction that will just lead to a dead end or another middle of the road song.

I'm also starting to appreciate the idea of 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration more than ever too!

[HEADROOM]

Originally Posted by manthe

The bottom line is, I won't even set up the project in my DAW until it is done. This method is actually a blessing. It really keeps my recording/gear sluttyness and creative songwriter-ness separate.

If you start the gear you start arranging instead of writing....




www.nickoosterhuis.com

"All you can do is ruin things to varying degrees " originally posted by dbbubba

[manthe]

How about this...

How many of you write songs for the 'purpose' of writing a 'hit'. I don't necessarily mean using a specific hit-song formula. I'm talking, perhaps, about purposely avoiding certain words or subjects because they would lack mass appeal. Or choosing 'catchy' over substantiative. Maybe cutting a song short when there really is more to say or considering 'airplay' as a large factor.

Now, I'm not talking about purposely avoiding good hooks, rhymes, or standard arrangements to show how 'deep' and/or 'above it' you are. Trust me, I understand the difference between being pretentious/overly complex/wordy/etc. vs actually writing from the gut (I've learned that the hard way in my late teens/early 20s).

I went through a 'phase' where I would try to write these meandering, intellectual/philosophical 'masterpieces'. UGH! Its embarrassing to look back on ! It was a valuable lesson, though. Especially after brooding and resenting the fact that no one would take me/the songs seriously. Then I had the epiphany....OH, they SUCK and NO ONE CARES!

Anyhow, do you approach writing with a purpose beyond the song itself? I do not. I do loosely follow standard arrangement formulas and I try to write memorable hooks. But, I use those tools for the sole purpose of conveying the point of the song. Maybe I should start writing with airplay or mass appeal in mind....maybe I could sell something

[juicylime]

I very rarely sit down to write a song for which the sole purpose is mass appeal but at the same time I have zero interest in intellectual meanderings. I proudly write simple songs that have nice meoldies, clear choruses, hooks and a certain atmosphere, story, emotion and a personal point. I find my stuff has a slice of Irish heart in it too, which has to be good, U2 did okay with it! I definitely try and keep them short and work within a structure that people would call pop/rock but I follow this because it is the form that I love. For me the song exists in its nearest to perfect form under the hand of people like Paul Simon, Neil Finn and others of that ilk. I even rate Complicated by Avril Lavigne as a bit of a gem! In some ways I've found myself fighting this and it can be difficult to make music that is far more mainstream than all the peers I have played music with for years but I've reached a point in the last year where I've just thought, f*ck it, these are the songs that come out the most naturally, no more holding back. Acoustic tinged song based melodic rock it shall be!!

[manthe]

Originally Posted by juicylime

I very rarely sit down to write a song for which the sole purpose is mass appeal but at the same time I have zero interest in intellectual meanderings. I proudly write simple songs that have nice meoldies, clear choruses, hooks and a certain atmosphere, story, emotion and a personal point. I find my stuff has a slice of Irish heart in it too, which has to be good, U2 did okay with it! I definitely try and keep them short and work within a structure that people would call pop/rock but I follow this because it is the form that I love. For me the song exists in its nearest to perfect form under the hand of people like Paul Simon, Neil Finn and others of that ilk. I even rate Complicated by Avril Lavigne as a bit of a gem! In some ways I've found myself fighting this and it can be difficult to make music that is far more mainstream than all the peers I have played music with for years but I've reached a point in the last year where I've just thought, f*ck it, these are the songs that come out the most naturally, no more holding back. Acoustic tinged song based melodic rock it shall be!!

Well, my curiosity is peaked...'if show me yours, I'll show you mine' Seriously, though, is there a place to sample your goods?


PS - It sounds like we have a lot in common, from an approach perspective. I tend to be very melody/laid-back rock oriented myself, except I find that I can not get away from adding a bit of alt-country twang to most of my stuff. We are what we are, I suppose. Also, many have said that, lyrically, my stuff would never fly on the radio...oh well.

[fastlane]

After reading this entire post I can relate to every comment. It's great to know that I'm not the only one who battles with this.
My approach has always been the same until late, I'd pick up the guitar, play a few chords, pluck a melody from thin air and scribble down the first lyrics that came to mind and I'd concider it finished. Then on to the DAW and get to work producing it. After writing in and around 100 songs I've now come to the conclusion that 90% of them were utter trash. So this doesn't work for me.

Lately I've tried a different approach, I play the guitar until I come up with something that (forgive the pun) strikes a chord with me at that moment. I'll then put a mic anywhere near the guitar and record the sections. Then I'll close my eyes and mumble what ever comes to mind. Once I have recorded atleast 5 different melodys I'll listen back and pick out the bits that feel best. Then pick up the acoustic once again and play the melody notes over my rambling and work out how inside or outside the scale they are.

From here production mode kicks in, I try my best to figure out where the melody is aching to go experiment with the notes, almost as if I was playing a very simple guitar solo over the music, singing along all the while. Once the melody is established I'll write suiting lyrics for the mood of the melody then on to the rhythm section, drums and bass and then a few fillers to make it sound close to being a song. Then I leave it. A few days later I'll listen back and if I still like it then I'll re-record everything properly.

The only snag is where to find the time!! Anyone what to set up irish lotto gearslutz syndicate.

Juicylime, how's the benchmark treating ya?? With your luck the way it is lately do you want to hazzard a guess what numbers will come up on saturday???

[No4PCs]

Originally Posted by juicylime

So you're sitting there and suddenly you get a great melody floating through your brain and you grab your acoustic gtr and a pen and paper, bang, a verse and a great chorus have arrived fully formed in minutes. Great stuff. Then you nip into the studio load up the DAW, throw on a few loops, put down a scratch vocal and guitar, maybe a little bass, even a rough double track harmony on the chorus....

...3 days later....

..... the track has had the slutty treatment but is still sitting there waiting for that right second verse, a killer bridge to set it off and the perfect coda to send it home. This has happened to me so many times that I will no longer record a new song until it's complete (more or less).
I'm finding that being a songwriter and being a gearslut can be a match made in heaven but trying to work with both hats on at the same time doesn't work. What do you do?

Also, what about it the other way round when as a producer you're working with an artist and your ideas and suggestions go beyond the merely helpful and step into the realm of re-writing the parts of the song. Ever been there and what happens as a result? Where is the line?

Hey friend, the same with me, sometimes the first verse and the chorus hammeriing my head, then i need fit a bridge trying minor relatives from first verse but only 4 patterns in maximum to get the thing minimal and strong to go to chorus !

By the way, Tom Jobim ( Girl from Ipanema ) said " Music is 15 minutes of inspiration and countless hours of transpiration" )

[juicylime]

Originally Posted by fastlane

The only snag is where to find the time!! Anyone what to set up irish lotto gearslutz syndicate.

Juicylime, how's the benchmark treating ya?? With your luck the way it is lately do you want to hazzard a guess what numbers will come up on saturday???

Yeah, c'mon and send your money to me and fastlane, we'll put it on the lotto for you! It's funny, I've actually never once bought a lotto ticket. The reason being that when I was younger I decided that with my luck I might actually win the bloody thing and that if I'm meant to have that amount of cash I'm meant to earn it rather than win it. Stoopid but true.

Haven't fired up the Benchmark yet.

So whereabouts in Ireland are you fastlane?

[fastlane]

Originally Posted by juicylime

Yeah, c'mon and send your money to me and fastlane, we'll put it on the lotto for you! It's funny, I've actually never once bought a lotto ticket. The reason being that when I was younger I decided that with my luck I might actually win the bloody thing and that if I'm meant to have that amount of cash I'm meant to earn it rather than win it. Stoopid but true.

Haven't fired up the Benchmark yet.

So whereabouts in Ireland are you fastlane?

Well if ya want give me the numbers, I'll win and then I'll give you a job!!! Everyones happy!!

I'm in Donabate, Dublin.
www.fastlanestudio.net

Your more than welcome to visit