please help with phase on drums

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by ramjet

hi

i just downloaded and tried the tritone digital free plug in phase tone which is for all intents and purposes a plug in version of a Little Labs IBP style tool and it works awesome BUT.....................

how do you go about miking a drum kit that in a way that does not require you to put a plug in on kicks and snares and toms to get them in phase with the overheads. i don't really want to be using these things like crazy i would rather learn how to mic correctly and go from there.

i think that the plug in will be cool for stuff like guitars and the like so that u can usse two mics and line it up later which would be cool but i think that i have a little to learn with the kit so HELP PLEASE

headphones - drummer playing very quietly - listen for the solidity as you move mics is a good way to learn!

[djui5]

This isn't really something you can explain on an internet forum, though I'm sure if you tried hard enough someone could...in a nutshell..

It's all about proper mic placement.

[ramjet]

hi

thanx for the answers. i do understand that it may be a little difficult to explain so i will ask another question. i assume you would start by getting a nice picture in the overheads and making sure they aren't out of phase with each other and then you would start adding other mics right? so when you add the tom mics for example are we talking about moving them around a few inches or could there be radical movement involved? is this roughly the proccess involved.

although after hearing what the plug did i will do what you said toolskid and use phones ause i think i know what to listen for now.

also djui5 one question for you to, if it is difficult to explain, how did you learn, i guess this would have been covered at the school you went to (can't remember which one), is there a book i should get my hands on that will explain it better.

djui5 i just read the question i asked and just so that you now i am being serious not smart arse, the way i worded it sounds a little smart arse, it is not intended that way.

[Brad McGowan]

Whenever you multi-mic any instrument like a drum kit, all the mics will never perfectly be in phase. There will always be something that is out of phase at some frequency with some other mic. The trick is to just place mics so that you make all that work to your advantage. Sometimes you can move a room mic and all of a sudden the mud in the kick drum is gone. It really just comes down to using your ears as you are getting sounds and relgiously going through and flipping the polarity of every drum mic channel and comparing it against the other mics you have already established have polarity that yields a pleasing result. I usually start with the overheads or the kick drum and then solo channels against that reference, flipping the polarity of each channel back and forth, until everything sounds full and punchy when combined back together. Think of the phase relationships as free EQ. Move things around until the sound you get makes you smile.

Brad

[Faderjockey]

Well...When doing overheads point both mic's at each other..

Oh! Phase on drums...meaning how to find it. Not wanting it!

Oh oh! Don't know.

[not_so_new]

The big secret to getting good phase on drums....




Good monitors, good converters (if you are using digital), a good listening environment and taking the time to really concentrate and learn the difference between good phase and bad phase.

I know that people say it is about the engineer not the gear but this is a classic example where the gear really does matter. You can't fix what you can't hear and you are going to have a hard time hearing phase problems when your monitors and listening environment are adding to the phase issues as well.

Honestly I can't say this enough, the first time you get into a great sounding room with great monitors that work for you a big light will turn on.... "ahhhhhh now I hear it, that is easy." Good headphones will help but speakers in a room work better for me.

This is why I always say the most important thing you can get for your studio is a good listening environment before anything else.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by ramjet

also djui5 one question for you to, if it is difficult to explain, how did you learn, i guess this would have been covered at the school you went to (can't remember which one), is there a book i should get my hands on that will explain it better.

djui5 i just read the question i asked and just so that you now i am being serious not smart arse, the way i worded it sounds a little smart arse, it is not intended that way.

haha, no worries

I learned some of it in school, but the bulk of it miking drum kits myself. I put a lot of time into miking a kit before I even listen to it. I'll spend an hour placing mics so they are where I like them.

What I meant by difficult to explain is that if we were in a live room I could show you exactly what needs to be done. Here on the forum I can type things but it might not translate well to the real world.

There are a couple of things I can say on here that might help though, like I always measure the distance between the snare and each OH mic, and try to get the distance the same. Sometimes this requires strange placement of the OH mics but works out well in the end. Also when I place the rest of the mics, like the snare, toms, and HH/Ride, I place them for maximum isolation from the rest of the kit. This helps a lot with phase. Here is where, if we were in a room, I'd show you exactly what angles work and where things should point

Hope that helps a little, or maybe someone can explain it better than I can.

[ramjet]

ok, i have read this a couple of times and yes all the stuff abut monitors, room, conversion, etc is a work in progress albeit a very slow one. as for the others all suggestions will be tried in the next few weeks.

djui5, sorry to be an ass but would you have a photo or two just to explain how you would position a mic on a tom or snare for maximum isolation from bleed

thank you all for your help so far and..................anymore suggestions?

[mtstudios@charter]

Originally Posted by ramjet

ok, i have read this a couple of times and yes all the stuff abut monitors, room, conversion, etc is a work in progress albeit a very slow one. as for the others all suggestions will be tried in the next few weeks.

djui5, sorry to be an ass but would you have a photo or two just to explain how you would position a mic on a tom or snare for maximum isolation from bleed

thank you all for your help so far and..................anymore suggestions?

Here are the culprits:

Snare is out from Overheads
Btm Snare is out from Top Snare
Kick is out from Overheads
Room is out from Kik

I usually end up with this:

Top Snare reversed (always)
Btm Snare normal (always)
Kick reversed (Usually dependent on how high Overheads are up)
If there is an outside Kik mic it is opposite of inside Kik mic (usually)
Room reversed (Dependent on distance from Kik and or if Kik is reversed)
Toms normal

I listen for loss in the low end department when introducing additional mics (one at a time). Then get the whole picture when all mics are on.

To answer a previous ? On a cardioid mic the back end of it picks up the least. So for this reason Tom mics could be pointed more downward so the backs of them have less Cymbal bleed (Just an example). The sound of the Tom might be compromised by having it at too much of a 90 degree, so you would use your best judgement to gain the least amount of bleed without sacrificing the Toms quality. Honestly the only bleed that ever bothers me is Open Hi Hat into Snare Mic, and that my friend could be (keyword COULD) the drummers fault. DON'T BASH THE OPEN HI HAT.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[softwareguy]

Do a lot of listening in MONO, especially as you are walking around with your headphones moving mics. This will really emphasize where the phase issues are.

Also do a search for words like "recorderman" and "Glyn Johns" and "3 mic" and just "overheads." You will find a lot of discussions about how to set your mics. If you read these and think about what people are trying to accomplish with these techniques, it can give you a lot of new insights into what makes drum micing sound good. Also, you can actually try the techniques themselves and see how they sound.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by ramjet

ok, i have read this a couple of times and yes all the stuff abut monitors, room, conversion, etc is a work in progress albeit a very slow one. as for the others all suggestions will be tried in the next few weeks.

djui5, sorry to be an ass but would you have a photo or two just to explain how you would position a mic on a tom or snare for maximum isolation from bleed

thank you all for your help so far and..................anymore suggestions?

Bleed shmeed (wonder how that is spelled LOL).

A tip for you about bleed.... you are never going to get rid of it. I tried for years when I was a rookie and never got it. It can be tamed a little but never as much as you would like.

The trick is to learn to use the bleed not to fight it... The rock in the river gets carried away fighting but the river reed just goes with the flow.. ya know?

Find the place were the bleed helps to complement the sounds you are searching for. Many times the place where the bleed is the least is also the place were the source sounds the worst as well. If you focus too much on bleed you start to loose focus on the prize which is the source you are micing.

Here is a suggestion for you. Always start with your distance mics first. If you are using room mics (you are using room mics right?) then start with them. That is the ultimate "bleed" but you will notice that if you set them up in the right place in a good room that can (for some styles) be a majority of your drum sound.

After the distant mics are where you want them then worry about phase on the close mics in relation to the rooms.... does adding the snare track take away some bottom end to the snare? To the Kick? How about the overheads, with the rooms, too much wash?

If you start with a place and then think of phase around that place it can help. IMHO the "place" to start is the room mics but some guys start with the kick, others with the snare so... as always.... no rules.

It works for me but it might not mean anything to you so YMMV, experimentation is the key.

Hope that helps.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by ramjet

djui5, sorry to be an ass but would you have a photo or two just to explain how you would position a mic on a tom or snare for maximum isolation from bleed

thank you all for your help so far and..................anymore suggestions?

No sorry. Just know where the rejection is on the mic and use it to your advantage. It requires some thinking and looking at the mic from all angles.

not-so-new is right, you'll never get rid of bleed entirely, but you don't want to either. Well you can by tracking each piece of the kit individually. This would solve your phase problems for sure, but it would take forever and probably kill the drummer.

[5down1up]

i would start with 2 overhead mics somewhere behind the drummer.
one real high and one just lower, make the mics point at different spots using different angles etc. now you should be able to hear how it SHOULDNT sound. ( theres a small chance left that a higher force was with you setting up the mics and everything sounds just perfect. that wouldnt be good, cause the intention is to hear the phase smearing ! )

everything else is said already, good luck

[ramjet]

thank you all for your help. i now have to spend way more time practising my micing tequniques.

BUT any more ideas? i am still listening

[Kyle S]

ok my drums sounds good to ME, right now anyway. I have no phase flip on my mixer :( just on one pre.

Now if i can get the mics to sounds good together and there is no phase flipped at all, 6 mics, am i just phase deaf? the kick is strong and stays strong with everything else and the snare is crackin. i can only flip phase once i dump it all into sonar. the cymbalsl dont wash out at all.

sorry i have bags on the mics, its realyl dusty down there and i didnt get the camera until everyone had left the session. but the stands are still in the same (roughly) position.

not trying to hijack.

[ScumBum]

I get to hijack the thread next........................


Ok the other day I used the recorderman technique for overheads , 57 on top snare , 421 in kick , speaker sub outside kick and a 57 under the snare .

I got everything in phase except the 57 under the snare with the 421 in the kick .

I just could NOT for anything get those two mics in phase . I moved them every possible angle , but they would stay out of phase and cancel each other out. So I said screw it to the 57 under the snare .

Anyone else have this problem ?

[Kyle S]

Just went down and checked distance with some twine. Both OHs are equal to within 3-4 inches of both the kick and the snare. I just beat the kick and moved them around then did the same with snare keeping the recorderman technique somewhat and his right arm in mind.

So is say, 5 inches, at a total distance of say.. well you can see in the picture above, like 4'9". At this distance, would this difference in mic postions affect the phase by a noticable amount? The drums sound pretty good to me, just the kit wanted to move on a few early takes.

And also, am i close to the recorderman technique in that pic above?

mics are as follows:
k: D6
st: I5
T1: e609s
T2: Q110?(probably not used)
OHL: AT2021
OHR: AT2020

[drundall]

Originally Posted by MushroomKingdom

I get to hijack the thread next........................


Ok the other day I used the recorderman technique for overheads , 57 on top snare , 421 in kick , speaker sub outside kick and a 57 under the snare .

I got everything in phase except the 57 under the snare with the 421 in the kick .

I just could NOT for anything get those two mics in phase . I moved them every possible angle , but they would stay out of phase and cancel each other out. So I said screw it to the 57 under the snare .

Anyone else have this problem ?

No. It's mighty strange that your sn btm mic is cancelling out the inside kick. Almost sounds like a wiring problem.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by drundall

No. It's mighty strange that your sn btm mic is cancelling out the inside kick. Almost sounds like a wiring problem.

yeah very weird

[bitman]

Hijack!

I use a rode nt4 xy stereo in the center over the cymbals. Helps the phase trouble there a bit. And I get the left and right of the kit where they should be via pan.

Just sayin...

[ScumBum]

Originally Posted by drundall;

No. It's mighty strange that your sn btm mic is cancelling out the inside kick. Almost sounds like a wiring problem.

Wiring problem , do you mean bad mic cable ?

The setup was ...

421 about half way in the kick - API512 - analog input on the 002

57 under snare - 002 mic pre

The two mic cables for the kick chain are high quality , as for the cable for the 57 under the snare it was not as high quality .

[Sigma]

everything is RELATIVE..prepare to taste

[Chris Parsons]

Don't get so worried about phase. If it sounds good then it sounds good. That comb-filtering that occurs because of tiny phase issues is part of the sound, and has been part of many great drum sounds.

[gurubuzz]

Originally Posted by Chris Parsons

Don't get so worried about phase. If it sounds good then it sounds good. That comb-filtering that occurs because of tiny phase issues is part of the sound, and has been part of many great drum sounds.

Finally some one said to use phase problems instead of fight them....

You can always shift tracks by samples to get them in phase you can also zoom in the waves and get them in phase by eye (use samples as a measure rather than milliseconds as on millisecond is roughly 1 foot).

but you will never get all of them in phase ..perfectly in phase...you'll get close.

And really guys when have you had all your mics singing in a mix..

often 1 or 2 or three mics are the majority sound and the rest to add a bit of volume .... and if you cant get your toms on phase, automate them in and out when the tom fill is finished.

Use your instincts not your brain...STOP thinking......

[Legacy Audio]

If you mic the kick from the inside of the drum, you'll most very likely have to reverse the polarity of the kick as it will be 180 degrees out from the overheads. Doing this should be immediately evident as the bottom end will come back into the kick drum when listening to all three mics.

The bottom mic of a snare is also a culprit of this polarity issue and should also be reversed.

Rather than shifting audio in time on a DAW, try flipping the polarity first.

[Thebassist]

Fewer mics= less phasing issues!

Also

Learning how to space a pair for the 3:1 rule is a bit tricky on kit, and can result in phasing issues with possibly every other mic. This is why I always use coincident pair or ORTF on OH. Less of a headache, and by golly I just like things to be easy...

If you don't know what ORTF and 3:1 are all about, then we may have just found the solution to your problem. Basics like stereo micing technique and 3:1 mic placement are things you can learn about in books, but till you see a freakin pro making a living doing it, you may end up doing alot of guesswork to get a desirable sound. And trying to fix phasing after the fact, which sucks.

Death to bandades!

That being said, if you use two mics on snare, one of em is going to need to be flipped much of the time.

[Kyle S]

how common is it to use a well set gate on a close mic to avoid phase issues?

[Brad McGowan]

Actually it's probably best to leave the polarity of the inside kick mic as your reference and flip everything else with respect to that. This way a kick drum hit will cause the woofers on your speakers to move outwards rather than inwards.

Brad

[dntknowsht]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Actually it's probably best to leave the polarity of the inside kick mic as your reference and flip everything else with respect to that. This way a kick drum hit will cause the woofers on your speakers to move outwards rather than inwards.

Brad

Great advice!!!