Mix sounding 2d instead of 3d`

[passionmax]

I am mixing on a Yamaha DM-2000 digital mixer. I used to mix on a Mackie d8b. My mixes not are sounding flater or almost mono-ish. I am trying to figure out why. I listen to some mixes in Protools HD. they sound more 3D. Spacial sounding then the mixes I am getting on my Yamaha DM-2000.

This is what Ia m doing. I use Digital performer. I track throug my Avalon gear. I come Lightpipe out of Motu 2408mkIII into Yamaha DM-2000. I use 70% plugins in DP. I use the rest on the DM-2000. I mix out of the board SPDIF back into 2408MKIII SPDIF. I have a great clock Apogee Bigben. The mixes done on the D8b had way more punch and hotter final overall levels. but there was stereo depth problem with the Mackie.

I guess the I am trying to find out if it is agear thing or something else. I have seen people in the forums complain that digital mixers are 2d and you need to mix on Analog to get the sound to pop out in 3d like on well mixed albums. If anyone has the same experience please help before I sello my desk to get protools HD or a Analog desk or mix allinternal in DP
thanks

[jazzius II]

geezer, it's not the gear!

I used to work at a studio where we did all the mastering for the studio next door.......next door they had a Mackie D8B....

...their mixes sounded soooo bad......flat, grainy, narrow, B&W, low res', etc etc

.....being somewhat inexperienced, i came to the conclusion that it was a really terrible sounding board......

much later i did some masterings for these guys.....they also mix on a D8B.......their stuff sounds incredible.....massive, fat, deep, wide, in-ya-face, fullrange.....the complete inverse to that first bunch of losers!

See what i'm getting at?

The dance guys have got a really expensive fullrange monitoring system in a good room and they know what the hell they're doing!

IMHO, if you can't get (very close to) the sound you want with the Yamaha, it's down to your lack of experience and lack of good monitoring.

[BrianT]

Hmmm. I'm not so sure about that. Passionmax, what genre of music are you mixing?


Regards,
Brian T

[passionmax]

Hi,
I am mixing mostly Pop or Pop dance. 95 % Reason and Midi and the rest are vocals. I do a lot of remixes so the vocals are sent to me. I do agree with my experience. I am trying my best to learn. I do so many mixes and no matter how much I compress and eq. I crank the levels and the mix even after I master it in he Waves bundle always sounds quiter and does not pop out of the speakers.

I have a question about gain staging. On a analog desk I used to get the level per channel as hot as possible without distorting by turning up the gain on top the mixer. I would leave the master fader at Unity and then use the individual faders to balance everything out.

on a digital mixer it is different. I track and get my signal as hot as possible into my Avalon 747. Then I print it to almost Zero on my Hedd-192. Then the traacks are routed back into my Yamaha DM-2000 via lightpipe. The level in DP is what I printed it at. It seems on the board that I have to raise the level with the attenuation knob on the board a little to get the level up to the top per channel. I keep the Master Fader at the top. I do the same for the individual channels.

Am I setting my levels correctly.
When I had my Mackie D8B. They had a Digital trim level per channel. I used to use this to crank the level up. My mixes had more punch from the Mackie and this boaredcoast med $20000 with all the upgrades.

I need some tips ono levels. Maybe I am not tqaking advantage of the levels correctly.

Is there anything I am missing
thanks

[crispy]

I would say that your problem is maximising levels on individual tracks is leaving you no digital headroom for processing and mix summing.
For example, if you present the digital stereo buss with two full scale 24 bit signals, it has to add them together and then 'trim' the result for it to fit into a 24 bit word. A lot of detailed information gets thrown away at this point, vital for stereo imagery, field depth, clarity etc.
At 24bit operation you should have plenty of resolution to record each track around 12-18 dB below full scale to prevent overloading the digital busses when mixing down.

[passionmax]

I always thought you were supposed to record the incoming levels in digital to as close to zero as possible. I heard from an engineer about 8 years ago that when you record your levels to low I think you loose bits degrading the sound quilty. Whe you were saying 12-18db less. are you talking in digital. So lets say I am tracking a 909 kick. I will rout it out of my sampler into my avalon 737. I will turn the input gain up as hot as possible on my avalon to get the sound to have balls. Compress it and then when I go AD into my Hedd -192 I should hit the meetrs at 18db ruffly.

I was doing the opposite. I am recording the levels to almost zero on everychannel.

What I don't understand it once it is the computer adn routed via lightpipe to the DM-2000 why does the recorded level make any difference. Once the signal is in the DM-2000 I though it is a new level like when you lower the fader it is not close to zero anynmore to balance the track out.

Also does this go for the final mix being printed as well for mastering.By the time my mix is done the levels are smack at zero with some minor overs. Should I start mixing at lower levels first.

Thanks for the help

[jazzius II]

I've got the feeling that the reason your mixes aren't "poppin'" out the speakers is 'cause there's nothing left to "pop"

Compression on the way in, Hedd, more compression in the box...more compression in the mix, limiting, more Hedd, more multi-band in the mastering.....WHY?.....

Take a leaf out of Rodney Jerkins book.....to roughly quote him:

"A lot of people tell me to compress my kick/snare but i don't agree.....i want to move some air and compression can close a sound down - anyway, i leave that stuff up to my mixer, Dexter Simmons"....

...and to roughly quote Dexter Simmons: "I don't compress individual drum sounds...it only makes 'em smaller"

You can't say their shit doesn't "pop" out the speakers!

Leave the transients on your sounds big and push them up into a quality broadband comp' in the mastering or maybe some Hedd compression.......or limiting or clipping......or a mixture of em all

Also, regarding levels:......everytime you change the gain in your DAW, you'll degrade the sound.......so if you think that your kick will need to peak at, say, -8dBFS in the mix, what's the point of slamming it up to 0dBFS when you track it?....there's is no point!......just track it at the volume you think you'll need in the mix....the closer the better........with modern converters you don't really need to worry about noise, and by slamming it to zero, you risk killing those precious transients and clipping it......this can be cool if you do it on purpose to get a certain sound (apogee soft limit?), but there's nothing wrong with a bit of headroom

[passionmax]

Thanks for the advise. I thought you were supposed to compress the crap out of the kick and bass to keep the sounds under controll so they don't eat up as much room in the mix. If you look at good mixes arent the levels pretty conistant. If you look at some my mixes the meter pops up and down a lot. alos if you look at the graphic you can see the bulk of the audio is in the middle an there are tons of peaks. If you look at a well mixed song the graph looks almost completly black. let me know your opinion or help

[DirkB]

I mix Nuendo to DM1000 and I feel that the gear I have isn't holding me back one bit, it's me.
You're looking for depth and in my humble experience there's no shortcut for that. Balance, eq, (room/reverb)FX, panning all come in to play. But the nice thing is: you once you have (some of) it, you'll know you're getting there and you can definitely tell when its flatgrudge.
I wouldn't worry too much about overall level. If you want a loud pancake, send it to one of the bakery guys that know how to squeeze it flat without turning it into pink noise too much...

I really dig an nice clear snaredrum with some depth to it, like 4" behind your speakers. I won't stop until I hear it (a little) .

Good luck and happy mixing!

P.S. I've heard a few mixes from Elliot Scheiner done on his Nuendo-DM2000 setup. These were 3D

[jlotto]

Originally posted by passionmax
Thanks for the advise. I thought you were supposed to compress the crap out of the kick and bass to keep the sounds under controll so they don't eat up as much room in the mix. If you look at good mixes arent the levels pretty conistant. If you look at some my mixes the meter pops up and down a lot. alos if you look at the graphic you can see the bulk of the audio is in the middle an there are tons of peaks. If you look at a well mixed song the graph looks almost completly black. let me know your opinion or help

If u doing hip hop & using samples kiks (including drums from mo phatt's/triton, etc.) the level is not going to change unless you program it to change. Compressing sample kiks makes them get smaller. live drummers r different. Synth bass stacks are pretty much the same thing. the level won't really change if you have your sequencer midi volume set to max (127). If it has a really heavy bottom mo phatt type bass in stack you compress a little to remove that jump in bass volume when you hit those low notes. If you r using live bass then you compress. Also a "well mixed" commercially released song has gone thru the mastering stage. As Supa Engineer Duro told me, "the only way to get mastering level from a mix is to have it go thru mastering".

[Albert]

But remember that when you look at an RTA of a finished mix that's exactly what you are seeing, whereas in your mix you are looking at an unfinished mix, a work in progress. You have to leave room for some level optimization in the mastering process in your mix. Whatever songs you are looking at on your RTA are louder than when the final mix was delivered, almost certainly.

I agree with the poster that says record with peaks around -12 to -18. Although you could get away with peaking at something like -6 or -8. But in your case that's dangerous to say that because you'd peobably then peg everything up there.

What that guy told you eight years ago is true to a point, but I think you've taken it to an extreme. I don't think he meant to peg every single track at "0". Maybe the final master (not the final mix), but certainly not every individual track.

[jazzius II]

Originally posted by passionmax
If you look at some my mixes the meter pops up and down a lot. alos if you look at the graphic you can see the bulk of the audio is in the middle an there are tons of peaks. If you look at a well mixed song the graph looks almost completly black. let me know your opinion or help

Stop mixing with your eyes and start using your ears!..

...things like phase scopes and FFT displays can be very cool for learning about sound, and i think it's way cool to go thru a phase of being scientific and looking at meters alot.....

.......but once you've gone thru that stage, forget it..........or at least put it to the back of your mind (to be used when you need it) and start focusing on listening and how the vibrations of those speakers effects the people who hear your music.....

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by passionmax


I guess the I am trying to find out if it is agear thing or something else. I have seen people in the forums complain that digital mixers are 2d and you need to mix on Analog to get the sound to pop out in 3d like on well mixed albums. If anyone has the same experience please help before I sello my desk to get protools HD or a Analog desk or mix allinternal in DP
thanks

Its definitely something else.

Its both a matter of self philosophy and who is doing it.

I think this post is similar to the "groove" and "bass" post. They are all asking the same thing i feel, so the answer is pretty much similar.

Just like everyone is not meant to be a great artist,a producer,a mastering engineer,an instrumentalist, not everyone is meant to be a great mixer.

A mixers mentality is basically do whatever it takes to get it done. There are no limitations except what you bring to it. Don't make excuses for the gear. The mix needs to groove more,"what can I do"? It needs to be wider,"when will i get there"? Can i induce the feeling of width?

Mixing is a lot like body building. Its about creating an illusion, shifting people's focus on what's weakest to what is strongest, making people feel somethng is there but it isn't.

Its a self philosophy.

This is because the person paying you to do it doesn't want to hear any excuses. grudge

If the mix doesn't accomplish what they want, then they will find someone who can.

You have DP, had a Mackie D8B, sold it for a DM2000, and now are thinking HD.

And I am sure someone will suggest its the summing so you should go analog. If that doesn't work what then?

Everyone will guess on the problems, the monitoring, the room, the mixing board, the outboard gear versus plugins, the converters, the latency correction or lack their off.

To be honest, they are all probably contributing to it. But i think the one people never mention(or are afraid to) is lack of experience and talent. I am not trying to say that you may not have talent(for all i know you maybe the future greatest mixer) but right now the greatest thing you need to overcome the limitation is confidence.

Without it you will never even come close. Right now(to you) your mixes will never be wide enough,bass heavy enough, clear enough...(you fill in the rest).

Personally i would stop comparing my mixes to stuff that's out there right now. Its just not fair. There are so many variables that are not at your disposal right now, that to even compare it is fruitless. Just do the best you can with it(in your mind) and take it through the whole stage(through a mastering engineer to get another perspective). Take advantage and learn through the whole experience. Afterwards ask yourself, where could i have improved? My production, my tracking,mixing, mastering?

Then you can decide where your strength lies best. Maybe production is it and hiring a tracking engineer and a hot shot mixer will get you farther. Who knows?

Hey, some of the greatest producers strength lies not in the creation, but in facilitating the process. Working with people, knowing who would be best for what, being able to bring out the best of the talent, I think its called "Between the Ears"!!!

To me this mentality is more valuable than any gear choice.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by passionmax ...]I heard from an engineer about 8 years ago that when you record your levels to low I think you loose bits degrading the sound quilty...

That WAS 8 years ago when most people were using 16 bit audio. 24 bit gives you around a 20 dB margin of error without losing information.

There are many ways to lose bits. A common one is excessive DSP computations, having to turn something down before you turn it up again. In the case of 24 bit recording, you are arguably more likely to lose information in the final mix from recording too hot than the other way around.

[Mario-C.]

if you use Reason I suggest you bounce your tracks individually and mix them elsewhere, the difference is not subtle

I don't think it's the DM2000 messing your sound, a friend from LA sent me some stuff that was mixed on a DM2000 for me to remix and their stuff sounded great

[crispy]

quote:
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Originally posted by passionmax ...]I heard from an engineer about 8 years ago that when you record your levels to low I think you loose bits degrading the sound quilty...
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Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
That WAS 8 years ago when most people were using 16 bit audio. 24 bit gives you around a 20 dB margin of error without losing information.

Also mixing 'In The Box' was unheard of then, unless you had a top o' the range PT system & AppleMac to run it on.

So everything went back thru an analogue mixer anyway, so yes you would want to maximise levels as processing & mixing was done in the analogue domain.

I did mean average levels at -12 to -18 dBfs, rather than peak levels which can be closer to -6 or -9. You do have to be exceptionally careful with very dynamic source material such as drums and vocals.

[Albert]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
There are many ways to lose bits. A common one is excessive DSP computations, having to turn something down before you turn it up again. In the case of 24 bit recording, you are arguably more likely to lose information in the final mix from recording too hot than the other way around.

Why would excessive computations lead to lost bits? It seems like having the most information possible for the calculations would lead to the most accurate sound, i.e. more bits to work with being better. I'm probably displaying a complete lack of understanding as to how the this works, but I'm a composer not a techie!

[Buddhaman]

Dear Passionmax--

Has there been any other changes in your setup during the transition from a D8B to DM2000??

I mean little things like Monitor and desk location, Mixing in a different room, new furniture in the control room??? Did you buy different monitors, change your power amp??

I've found personally that little things like moving my desk and monitors 6 inches, in my unacoustically treated home studio, can have a HUGE difference in how my Mixes translate.

Buddhaman

[stealthbalance]

[quote]Originally posted by thethrillfactor


Personally i would stop comparing my mixes to stuff that's out there right now. Its just not fair.
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thrill - i gotta disagree with you on this. when i was coming up the ranks , i would always be mixing stuff whenever i could get into the studios. i would take the stuff home that i thought was pretty well mixed , compare it to some of my favorite current records that i loved and that i thought sounded great. man was that a humbling time for me - because for the first year i was really sucking. then suddenly my stuff was sucking less often then it used to , then i actually was surprised to see myself do pretty good work consistantly. but the comparing gave me the perspective to know what my strengths and my weaknesses were. even now at the end of a mix i may a/b to a cd or 2 - not to copy anyones style, but to make sure that it stands up at least to that level and wont be competitively weaker than other stuff. its not my style to say " hey man , wait until its mastered and it will kick ass". it must be blinding NOW or i stink.
if you are a newbie,comparing ones mixes to whats jumping on the charts can be a very enlightening thing. YMMV
MVHO
s

[jazzius II]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Sage words

Gotta agree on all of the above, apart from on monitoring......i don't think you can overstate the importance of monitoring......Passionmax......what monitors/amp you got?

[juniorhifikit]

[quote]Originally posted by stealthbalance

Originally posted by thethrillfactor


Personally i would stop comparing my mixes to stuff that's out there right now. Its just not fair.
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thrill - i gotta disagree with you on this. when i was coming up the ranks , i would always be mixing stuff whenever i could get into the studios. i would take the stuff home that i thought was pretty well mixed , compare it to some of my favorite current records that i loved and that i thought sounded great. man was that a humbling time for me - because for the first year i was really sucking. then suddenly my stuff was sucking less often then it used to , then i actually was surprised to see myself do pretty good work consistantly. but the comparing gave me the perspective to know what my strengths and my weaknesses were. even now at the end of a mix i may a/b to a cd or 2 - not to copy anyones style, but to make sure that it stands up at least to that level and wont be competitively weaker than other stuff. its not my style to say " hey man , wait until its mastered and it will kick ass". it must be blinding NOW or i stink.
if you are a newbie,comparing ones mixes to whats jumping on the charts can be a very enlightening thing. YMMV
MVHO
s

I would also disagree with the original statement. Comparing your mixes with the top of the heap in your genre can be a great learning tool. Don't get too bent about mastering, just try to match playback levels when monitoring your stuff against the famous stuff (most mastering sessions I've been to - fav=Bernie Grundman's - they did almost nothing, just goosed the level a little). If your stuff doesn't stack up, keep working. Research your favorite mixers and maybe learn a trick or two. Some of them might even be on this forum!

[thethrillfactor]

[quote]Originally posted by stealthbalance

Originally posted by thethrillfactor

thrill - i gotta disagree with you on this. . YMMV
MVHO
s

Well Stealth and Junior hifi you guys are in titled to your opinion.

But i personally feel for passion right now(and for his confidence), making comparisons is just going to be counterproductive.

I personally feel as an artist,producer,engineer or whatever you choose to do in life, the only comparisons the matter are the one's you make against yourself.

Am i getting better or worse? What do i have to do to get to the level i want to be at today?

I think comparisons with others should be done by others.Let them decide and judge(in the end what's really important is what you think about your work anyway). When you start looking on the other side and start comparing your stuff it starts to create a vacuum mentality. The grass is greener on the other side starts to sneak in there.

What happens next is you get paralyzed.

Analysis by paralysis. You start to question every little thing in your setup from the speakers,to the room,to board,to the outboard or lack their off. How about the temperature in the room?(Just kidding).

Nothing gets done.

I understand if you want to listen to what's out there if you want to get an idea what's going on soundwise. But i think its something you see alot with the new genration of popular singers. There is an extreme lack of originality because people are trying to emulate everyone else. Sure you hit the same notes with the same phrasing as (blank). But what are you about? What do you bring to the table on your own?

Look its easy for us to talk. I gather we all mix for a living. But i think i can speak for all of us, we didn't come to it overnite. Heck i am still learning. If we were all given the same track, with the same tools to mix it, i bet you guys that all the mixes would sound different. Because through years of trial and effort, you come to your own sound(or inner voice). I think right now Passion needs to cultivate that more, he needs experimentation or better yet just finish the whole thing and then evaluate.

Build the confidence and the rest will come.

Thrills Fields of Dreams.

Again guys its just an opinion.

[passionmax]

Hi,
thanks thrill factor. I appreciate your support. it is very frustrating at time. First I thihjnk its my board then my speakers then my room. by that time I have taken 10 asprin drank 10 beers. I actaully want to be original. the only thing I am trying to achieve is more depth in my mixes that here from professional engineer mixes. once I learn more about proper gain staging then I can run free with my creartive ideas.
I actaully just got off the phone with Yamaha with another question. I picked his brain about what we are talking about. his advise was the following to keep iot short

1. Print my synths or samplers thourhg outboard (ex.Avalon 747 etc.)
2. Print at about -6 to -10 db on the cranesgon meeters going into my DAW which is Digital Performer
3. Keep my master fader at 0.
4. Set my mix up so everything hits around -4to -6 db.
5. Leave the rest of the bits for mastering.

The rest is mix flavor.

I was crunching every stupid track printing to zero and blasting everychannel to sum at 0

I assume this is why my mixes are sounding lifeless or lacking depth. I

I will let you guys know when I do my next mix howe it works.
thanks guys

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by Albert
Why would excessive computations lead to lost bits? It seems like having the most information possible for the calculations would lead to the most accurate sound,...

ONLY if you are calculating once. Most calculations spread the information across more bits than you can store or route back into the mix. This means truncation or, hopefully, dither happens every time the audio gets processed. EVERY additional calculation reduces the amount of information retained unless you have a bottomless bit bucket.

And Passionmix, turning the master down in ProTools can really clean things up. It isn't intuitive but there is plenty of headroom AFTER the faders, just not enough before.

[jazzius]

I agree with TF about comparing stuff....

During the mix/production, it can be dangerous.......leave the comparisons for after, in the cold light of day.......

......maybe set aside time to do some experiments.....try to emulate the sound of your favorite producers/mixers....do it scientifically...

....but don't do it while your actually trying to create......it can paralyse.....definately been there, done that........

Instead of comparing to others during the mix/production, focus that mental energy towards your own music.......think of your music in terms of energy, flow, groove...try to cast a spell that will take possesion of people....

and try to be original, rather then copy...the greats like Jimi Hendrix, James Brown etc are great because they didn't copy......they did their own thing....

and for gods sake, tell us about your monitoring/room!......i think i must have asked you this about 5 times in the last few months....

[passionmax]

Hi
sorry about the monitor thang. I though I answered it already.

I am using Dyneaudio BM6A and Yamah NS-10's. I also have JBL LSR28slp for cranking them.

My stuiod is 10' x 11'

I have a omnirax prostation desk. the monitors are about a 1' and half from the wall.

I have a decnetn amount of foam on the walls. I have bass trap from celing to floor on the front wall where the speares are. I also have 6 diffusors on the fron wall right behind the speakers.

I could not put them on the back wall because the back is closets.

I can't for the moment put them on the celing either because I am moving and the celing are popcorn. did not want to ruin the Diffusors.

Let me know any acoustic tips for me thanks.