MIXING - best investment for a band on a budget?

[quietdrive]

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[pete]

a good engineer with a bad preamp is better than a bad engineer with a good preamp

just my opinion

[Mr. Man]

I'd have to agree with pete.
It's not uncommon for the band to mix their own recording but having a "kick ass" engineer mix it means that he'll use tricks that the band members don't know. I'd say get professional help. Get a good engineer!

[Midlandmorgan]

If I may recommend:

Mixing is only a part of the equation in getting a good sounding product...a DIY tracking approach is indeed valid, but all the great gear in the world isn't going to guarantee a great sounding product...one has to know where/how/when to place mics, etc, in certain conditions, etc.

Depending on where you live, the budget you stated would cover the cost of recording in good tracking area with great gear, have it mixed and mastered, and a bunch of copies made.

If you decide on DIY, consult with the mix engineer first, before spending much money. Perhaps even book an hour or two just to get a feel for how/what/where/etc... You may decide to just do it all there, or at least get some guidance as to what gear would suit your needs if you choose the DIY route...

Either way, good luck!

[bendecido]

my man for 15k they can buy themselves some killer equipment, get it mixed in a top studio by a top engineer and still have money to spare. Look at the great recordings of the 70s which were done on stringent budgets. If they are really talented as you say id tell em to invest in a live room,(a pre production studio). do some research (as quietdrie said hire an engineer for a cuple of days so they can figure everything out) get everything down and then take it to big studio for all the tweaking. That way they can always use their equipment and space for future stuff.

[ersheff]

If they're looking for something to "shop to labels", how good does it actually have to sound? I mean, most people with solid experience recording can turn out a solid product with prosumer gear. Do they need it to absolutely shine before they play it for the right people? I thought the point of label support was to get THE MAN to pay for the big studio time.

[Midlandmorgan]

That's a good question...

I believe that the better sounding the demo, the better the chances of getting it heard by the people who make the decisions...its a matter of showing a certain amount of confidence and pride in their work...

Consider: one technically could make a demo with a cell phone....A&R people get pounded daily by demos (the ones I know, anyway) and they essentially give about 10 seconds to a song to determine if the rest of it is worth listening to...unless that 10 seconds is pretty top flight stuff, it ends up in the shredder before lunch...

There are demos, then there are DEMOS...which would you rather listen to and potentially invest your time and money into: the one that was done as lowball as possible, or the one that showed the artists actually have enough faith in their material as to invest some of their money....

Also don't forget that many times 'demos' end up as indie releases...and that even the major labels (again, the ones I know of) often times pay much closer attention to products that are 75-90% "there"...the less they have to spend to get it out there, the better.

Just an observation and opinion...

[bendecido]

id say let them invest in some top notch equipment and a good live room for 10k and spend 5 k on mixing and mastering. At a top notch world class studio here in london it costs £450 a day im gessin its about 500,600 over there. how many days do u need to mix 4 songs ? Make an investment in sum good equipment and a live room which will serve you for years to come even if they get a major deal and are jet setting across the world theyll still use it.

When they set up the live room and have got some equipment and are ready to record i would hire a good engineer to oversee the recording of the 4 songs.
blessings

[Tony Shepperd]

I wouldn't buy any gear. If you really want to shop these guys, make a deal with an engineer and a studio.
Your product will sound better and you will have a better chance of walking in the door of a label.
Of course that depends on what city your in. The bigger the city, the more likely you'll find a great studio that has some idle time to sell cheap.

[djui5]

They need to take all that money to a good producer and let him sort it out. For $15,000 you should be able to get a producer into a nice studio to record and mix 4 songs. No reason they can't.

Don't let them do it themselves, get a producer to work on the songs with them to make the best recording they can. Let the producer handle the budget. $15,000 is a lot for a demo. Send em out here, I'll do it

[djui5]

Sure, thats one way to look at it, but is it really worth it to track your own stuff? I mean, what happened to having a producer/professional work with you and make the best recording you can? I'm seeing it more and more, bands wanting to record themselves, I have a feeling they don't realize what they are doing. Sure, maybe they know how to tweak a compressor or hit the big red button, but do they really know what it takes to record great music? It's so much more than just a couple pieces of equipment. I think artists forget that. I've even seen it happen to "big leaguers", build a home studio and do it all themselves. The end result is USUALLY not that great. I'm not for a band recording themselves, and will always recommend against it.

Another issue that should be brought up here is how having your own equipment leads you to having an almost indespensible amount of time to work on the music. A lot of artists would say, "yeah, that's a great idea!". No, actually it's not. This leaves you too much time to rethink yourself over and over again, 2nd and 15th question everything, it's not good.

Just something to chew on. What's better, owning some gear, or owning a great sounding demo that could land you a deal?

[pkautzsch]

Q. How do you get the best mix?
A. Do good tracking.
Q. How do you get the best mastering?
A. Do good tracking.

Q. How is good tracking done?
A. Hire a good engineer.

Presupposition: music & musicians are good.

[picksail]

quietdrive,

I PMed you.

[quietdrive]

Originally Posted by picksail

quietdrive,

I PMed you.

Oh yeah... will reply now.

[against88]

i think we need some more info...

is this a band that has never toured or been signed? is there a lawyer or manager in place that can make sure that these demos get heard?

there's a good chance that the label/a&r is not even going to press play if they don't know about the band. you could spend a million dollars on a demo and if no one hears it, who cares?

i bet there are a ton of engineers on this board that could take a great band and cut a great demo in 3 days. tell them to practice till its perfect, then go nail the demo. i think a $15,000 demo for %99.9 of bands is ridiculous. there are plenty of indie (and not indie) records that cost less than that.

working with talented engineers and producers is great, and they are professionals, and they should not be undervalued. but what if the label hears the songs and says "sounds great! ...but we want to hear a few more songs" do you have another $10,000 for 3 more tunes?

i think buying a gear for writing/demo-ing is a great idea. if they can get the tracks in the ballpark, then sure get someone to mix it. if the label wants to hear more, you can do that. if the label still isn't into it, record a few more tunes and put the record out yourselves... build some steam then maybe the labels will be interested in LP2.

sorry i'm venting.
my brain is half economics major, half indie musician

-w

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by pete

a good engineer with a bad preamp is better than a bad engineer with a good preamp

just my opinion

A good song that is recorded poorly is better than a bad song recorded well
But if something is recorded poorly these days your an idiot.

For a couple grand these days you can get major label quality without much effort

[Jules]

find a "demo specialist"

I am one...

Skilled at getting deaf A&R people to get their check books out...

After that - its up to you, I get paid before you go through that gate...

There are plenty of us out there..

Better do that than noodle around yourself with gear that you just bought.. IMHO

[picksail]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Oh yeah... will reply now.

Back atcha!!

[SoulSpace]

But I would network in your town, hire the best recording engineer, or specifically hire one of the best engineers on this forum in your area, to track. And then hire the best mixing producer, (maybe the same guy, depending) to mix your band.

Find the best engineer/recording studio in town, record. Find the best mix engineer in town, mix.

Be well reheased, tight, no gotchas, so you aren't making changes during the process.

Unless you're in LA, NY or Nashville, then you should be cool with $15k (or less).

If you are in any of these above towns, then it get's more interesting (and complicated) on what approach to take...

Good luck.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Finally somebody in this thread who thinks like me...

Becareful saying that . I have many enemies here. Lot's of folks here think you need an 80's series Neve to make a good product or protools with a rack of apogee converters

NOT!


If you CAN'T make a pro recording with $2000 worth of gear

you are not a PRO

[SoulSpace]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Becareful saying that . I have many enemies here. Lot's of folks here think you need an 80's series Neve to make a good product or protools with a rack of apogee converters

NOT!


If you CAN'T make a pro recording with $2000 worth of gear

you are not a PRO

I have to take exception with this. First thing, the bro said he is looking to shop to labels. OK, red flag one. He needs it to sound like a record. So $2k isn't going to cut it on gear. Then bro says it is a band. Red flag two. I say strike while the iron's hot. I mean, the bassist could leave, the drummer could get some chick pregnant, you know what I mean...

If they have hot songs and they are a band, then just be what they are...a band. Hire a studio, hire an engineer, hire a mix guy. Be a band.

If they want to figure out which preamp to get...that is what we do here. And it takes time, and effort. But this is not what I would suggest to a band that supposedly has hot songs.

Peace and chicken grease.

[SoulSpace]

I didn't mean to suggest with my title that "you" are not a pro engineer/producer, but that the OP is not.

Peace.

[Mike Caffrey]

A great song tracked poorly may be better than a poor song tracked well, but there are only 6-8 slots for new bands per major label each year. Neither of these options are going to get you a major label deal. You need to have a great song recorded and mixed great.

I don't know whether A&R guy have no imagination or not, but they certainly shouldn't be using it. With the budgets and the risk they are taking, the shouldn't be speculating. A band that wants a major label deal is saying "we can deliver at that level." So prove it. If they can't prove it with a three song demo, maybe a video and a great live show will help. A following would, but that's likely to be a result, partly, from recordings they've done.

If you want a drum recording that sound like a major label recording, hire someone who does them. That's not the guitar player in the band or the salesman from guitar center, it's the guy who's known for getting the best drum sounds around.

There's probably a good chance that guy will have contacts and can help shop the band too.

Think about what the budget is for. Is it for buying gear? Is it for starting a studio? Or, is it for getting a record deal. There are thousands of other bands focused on one thing only - getting a deal. Most wont. The ones that don't let themselves get side tracked by anything - recording, drugs, whatever - are the ones who will.

When the tape is played back, they need to be listening to content - structure, performance etc, not tones. Which reminds me, there's no way they're going to be able to buy a tape machine, a boat load of pres, DAW, moitors, plugins and years of experience for $15k.

[picksail]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Becareful saying that . I have many enemies here. Lot's of folks here think you need an 80's series Neve to make a good product or protools with a rack of apogee converters

NOT!


If you CAN'T make a pro recording with $2000 worth of gear

you are not a PRO

I'm your buddy here.

[thenoiseflower]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

I mean how stupid do you have to be to track something unusable with a RME interface, a nice preamp, and a good mic.. that a good mixing engineer could not work with?

stupid enough to not try moving mic's around a bit,

or stupid enough to beleive something is "good enough"

or stupid enough to waste energy/time/money/art crippling good songs with a mediocre recording.


the best thing I ever heard on this forum went something like this...

"..... integrity of the recrding to an increasingly knowledgeable public"


IMHO - take the above advice, hire someone, esp if they want to get signed, maybe even think about some semi "name" producer, the eventual outcome will certainly be better/more marketable.

great pre amp bad engineer/ worse pre amp great engineer, WTF?!?!?
no bad engineers should be recording music anyway, so why do people keep mentioning this? a pre is a pre, but a nice pre is likely better, plain and simple.

[Henchman]

I'm sorry, but you can do a killer 4 song demo with a talented band for 5k.
Really, they shouldn't do more than 3.
record a song per day, and 2 days to mix.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by SoulSpace

I have to take exception with this. First thing, the bro said he is looking to shop to labels. OK, red flag one. He needs it to sound like a record. So $2k isn't going to cut it on gear. Then bro says it is a band. Red flag two. I say strike while the iron's hot. I mean, the bassist could leave, the drummer could get some chick pregnant, you know what I mean...

If they have hot songs and they are a band, then just be what they are...a band. Hire a studio, hire an engineer, hire a mix guy. Be a band.

If they want to figure out which preamp to get...that is what we do here. And it takes time, and effort. But this is not what I would suggest to a band that supposedly has hot songs.

Peace and chicken grease.

I'm sorry I disagree.

[5down1up]

> how stupid do you have to be to track something unusable

when you start recording, 1st time you will make every single mistake available, 2nd time you try to not repeat the mistakes you already figured out that they werent cool ,3 ,4 ,5 ... ,187393 theres still a lot to learn

if you can record " o.k " a great mixer can improve the quality a lot.
but " o.k " is far away from starter level.

recording is an ART: getting the right sounds is jedi skill.

someone with experience can make you feel comfortable and fly a session.
its a lot of preasure to carry it all on your own shoulders.
and the mega bonus is :
you will have somebody to blame if you dont like the result ...
your not ending up " DAMN, we suck, but hey, its just a demo "

GOOD LUCK

[Damian Taylor]

An earlier post asked what the bedget was for - buying gear or getting the band signed?

If the goal is to get the band signed I'd hold the majority of that cash for marketing purposes!

I'd also recommend above all trying to find a producer who really understands songs and structure and doing preproduction with them. I've sat through a number of meetings with record execs with a crappy sounding demo of a great song. The song will always shine through.

If the band really are great like you say, then there is no reason why they wouldn't be able to track three songs in a day. Play them live. They're a band, it's what bands do right? Let the energy and (dare I say it) vibe of the band shine through.

It would be an interesting excercise to see if you can find the right producer to work with the band on spec or for little upfront money. There are a lot of ways to do this kind of a deal. Look at is as a testing ground for signing the band - can you get people to believe in them already?

Now after you've done a points deal with a producer, who probably won't want to really charge you anything up front (he'll want you to put money into PROMOTING the band) and a few days studio time, if that (one to track live and over dub, then a couple to mix) you guys can STILL go and buy a couple of new bits of gear.

You might find that the experience of the sessions will inspire your choices, and you'll learn a lot more taking a few songs from start to finish than just asking someone to come in and show you how to set some levels.

If you do build a relaitonship with a producer who is great in preprod, it is more than likely that you will then be able to record nice and rough and ready demos with your gear that you can use for phase two of negotiating your deals. Use the main recordings to open the door, then go through all the preproduction demos to show what other songs are ready to be recorded.

I did preproduction over two weekends with a band last year where we were set up with an 8 track recorder in a rehearsal room (digi 002). In that time we worked on 22 songs. The band were really into the tweaks we made to the structure and arrangments of the songs, which meant that when they played them live their gigs had all the more impact. I've just done preprod on another 5 songs for a band in London - just dropping in on rehearsals for an hour or two after sessions. Their vibe was the same - their songs had so much more impact at their gigs and straight away they were getting more attention.

I think everyone here who has posted is totally right - you don't need a lot of gear to make a good demo, and you will also enjoy working with great, experienced people and it's the best way to learn. But prioritising CLEARLY what the band needs to achieve next is crucial. It might mean that the gearslutism has to take a slight back seat, but in the long run it'll be worth it.

I'd suggest the best thing for the band to do for these crucial recordings is focus on playing their ASSES off, rather than mic pre choices! Picking one or two extra bits of gear to add to the collection is a great idea too, but maybe just add one or two bits at a time and spend the rest of that cash on promotion. Is there a marketingslutz website out there?

Hope this helps,

Damian

[Tousana]

They seem to have some cash so don't waste it. Is anyone in the band an engineer? do they know anything about recording at all?

First I think they should do no more than three songs. Practice the sh*t out of those songs, so when they record them they know where they're going with them.

There are many ways they can go, I think most people fail to think about where you record something, i.e the room and the acoustics, if nothing else they should at least record the basic tracks (drums,bass,etc.) in a decent space, with a good engineer. Once this is done then they can maybe get away with recording everything else someplace other than a studio (vocals and o/d's), with someone who knows what there doing. Then mix at a good studio of which there are many, some with big names that are known and others that are small and not as well known.

They should be able to do this for far less than $15K, even if they do the whole thing in a studio.

Also they need to get a lawyer, because these days most labels don't listen to unsolicited demos. It's not like the old days when an A&R person had the time to listen to a demo that was delivered right to his desk. These days they will barely even take the time to do so. This is evident by some of the stuff we here today.
Besides what good is spending all that cash if you can't get it heard.

Does the band tour? play out? They also should be trying to create their own buzz.
Get a good one going, and maybe they'll have labels coming after them.

Do your homework and you'll come up with something good!!!!!!