Snare mic that goes..."POP"?

[manthe]

Originally Posted by stevep

57 is all you should need ..... if you cant get a good sound with one there may be other issues

try different snare drums till you find the one you like,

sometimes we go through a few snares to find the one we like for a given song, but most of the time the drummer already knows what will work for the song so its just tuning.

You may be right. Although, it isn't really that I don't get a 'good' sound, just not a sound that I'm happy with. I have 2 different snares. One is a Pearl and the other a Ludwig. Both are metal. Perhaps I should go audition some wood snares.

Yeah..maybe I just need to get wood!

[manthe]

Originally Posted by Colin Gaucher

Lou has posted this info many times and I always quote him because this is a great method that I like to use as well. When I started using this method about a year ago, I finally got the sound of the snare that I pictured in my head.

That being said, I like using a Shure KSM 141 condenser, but mic choice will depend upon the snare drum choice as well. Shure Beta 56 or Beyer M201 isn't so bad either.

This will be today's experiment. What do you use as the second mic? How far down on the shell do you mic it? Will it matter that the shell is metal? Thanks!

[manthe]

Originally Posted by Surfkat

I like a dynamic on top (usually a 57) and a condensor on the bottom (usually a sm81). Mix the bottom mic to taste (after flipping the phase). I think you should expand your thinking about the snare sound to include the other mics of the kic. Try putting a LD condensor on the rack tom (I use U87) but place it about 4-6 inches off the tom and facing towards the snare. That mic will pick up the tom in beautiful way and add some bigness and snap to the snare.

Originally Posted by Monsterlab

sounds like you need to add some room mics. I use a 57 or Beyer m420 on snare top and whatever sd condenser thats within arms reach on the bottom. sounds great. ditto across the head 50% micing the shell. the room mics are where the mojo is,tho.

Originally Posted by dave-G

Distance can also make a difference.

As others have said, I'd look first at the sound of the snare itself.. but then, I'd move to position with the goal of finding a spot where you can get more distance from the drum without getting too much more leakage than you can handle. The thing about close-miking a drum is that the closer you are the greater the ratio between the levels of the transient and the sustained parts of the sound. As you back off, the two grow closer together proportionally by the inverse square law. One reason dynamic mics are helpful is because they often compress the transients a bit and bring it all together more. If you can move the mic back (higher) off the head even little more, you might be surprised at how it refocuses the sound.

Then of course you're relying on a good drummer, but what else is new?

Other dynamic mics you might try are the Beyer 201, the Sennheiser 431 (vocal dynamic), and the Fostex M77RP printed ribbon (shameless plug, I've got one for sale). Otherwise, for a different, condenser's-eye perspective, a good sleeper of a mic for snares is the Milab DC96B.

-dave

All noted!

I'm trying to keep some organized notes out of this thread that I can print out and reference while I'm experimenting this weekend. I WILL get the sound I want before this weekend is over. I REALLY appreciate all of the tips!

[warhead]

Originally Posted by manthe

Any particular condenser you're fond of? I've been considering the Groove Tubes GT Convertible FET.

I know nothing about that GT mic.

My favorite condensor for snare is actually the sE Electronics SE3. That mic delivers such a great all in one snare sound it's silly. However, if you plan on practically laying it on the head with a hard hitting drummer it's not going to work out due to overload. Otherwise I'd say go for it.

Another very good sounding mic though on close snare is ADK's SC-2 "hi-spl" model. Great all in one sound that can also handle a shotgun going off if needed. Captures a very similar sound to the SE3 actually, full body and great image, and not in need of much EQ if the snare fits the song to begin with.

The ATM450 by Audio Technica is the most out of the way snare mic (due to side address) you could ever want and also delivers a nice full sound and slightly better off axis rejection.

Of those 3 it'd be a tough pick, overall I may lean towards the ADK SC-2.

Not level matched but all done with the same Ludwig snare in the same session, same position.

War

[taturana]

for the past few years.. i've been using a neumann km145 for snare and i love the results... next i plan to get a sterling audio st31 (or st33, since i cannot find th st31 anywhere) i definitely favor condensers for this application preferably sdc's... sometimes i use the km145 on top and a shure beta57a (or senn e906)on bottom, but i want to change that around a bit with the st31..

[manthe]

Originally Posted by warhead

I know nothing about that GT mic.

My favorite condensor for snare is actually the sE Electronics SE3. That mic delivers such a great all in one snare sound it's silly. However, if you plan on practically laying it on the head with a hard hitting drummer it's not going to work out due to overload. Otherwise I'd say go for it.

Another very good sounding mic though on close snare is ADK's SC-2 "hi-spl" model. Great all in one sound that can also handle a shotgun going off if needed. Captures a very similar sound to the SE3 actually, full body and great image, and not in need of much EQ if the snare fits the song to begin with.

The ATM450 by Audio Technica is the most out of the way snare mic (due to side address) you could ever want and also delivers a nice full sound and slightly better off axis rejection.

Of those 3 it'd be a tough pick, overall I may lean towards the ADK SC-2.

Not level matched but all done with the same Ludwig snare in the same session, same position.

War

I definitely hear why you like the se3. It was every bit as full and 'tough' sounding as the 450, but it gave far more detail and way better transient response. It also, surprisingly had just as strong hi-hat rejection. Thanks for posting those samples!

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by manthe

Do any of you have a snare mic that goes...."POP"? (...)
My SM57 goes - "PUHP"
Thanks!

Can't say for the Audix, but I think the EV n/d 468 does the "pop" thing quite nicely.

But it's not a sound I'm very fond of and I only (used to) use it alongside a 57 (which, to my ears has more of a "potsch"btw). I EQ the mud away from the 57 and leave it otherwise untouched. Then the 468 gets the whole gate/comp/radicalEQ treatment to augment the 57's tone.
Recently I've changed to just 1 Beta57A which then gets parallel-compressed; so that's where I get my snare-"pop" from nowadays.

Hope this makes sense, it's meant to.

[warhead]

The E/V ND468 doesn't deliver the depth and transient crack of a condensor.

I'd still go the route of a condensor mic.

Same session, same snare, same position.

War

[taturana]

Originally Posted by manthe

Any particular condenser you're fond of? I've been considering the Groove Tubes GT Convertible FET.

i think sterling audio is the same as the groove tubes... just changed names...
that's why i am looking for a st31 (or a st33) ... it seems michael wagener likes it a lot on snare... from what i've seen they look very similar... and use the same capsule as the gt33 and gt44 as well as the convertible...
the gt convertible seems to have an extra windscreen (not that i would use that a lot..) i might consider buying one of those for snare...

the se-3 and sc-2 seem to be in the same ballpark... but i wouldn't know really...

[manthe]

Originally Posted by warhead

The E/V ND468 doesn't deliver the depth and transient crack of a condensor.

I'd still go the route of a condensor mic.

Same session, same snare, same position.

War

Those sound good too, but I think I'm still digging your se3a the most, though!

[warhead]

Me too.

By the way that SE3 is really hefty, it just feels so good and looks quite different.

War

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by warhead

The E/V ND468 doesn't deliver the depth and transient crack of a condensor.

I totally aggree. Of all the examples you posted, I'm torn between the AudioTechnica and the SE as my favorites.
Maybe I just got the OP's meaning of "pop" wrong, but the 468 just seemed closest to that.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by taturana

i think sterling audio is the same as the groove tubes... just changed names...
that's why i am looking for a st31 (or a st33) ... it seems michael wagener likes it a lot on snare... from what i've seen they look very similar... and use the same capsule as the gt33 and gt44 as well as the convertible...
the gt convertible seems to have an extra windscreen (not that i would use that a lot..) i might consider buying one of those for snare...

the se-3 and sc-2 seem to be in the same ballpark... but i wouldn't know really...

You're right, actually. I've had that conversation with a dealer who buys both and he confirmed it.

That said (since the st are a bit cheaper) I might take a closer look at them.

[taturana]

Originally Posted by manthe

You're right, actually. I've had that conversation with a dealer who buys both and he confirmed it.

That said (since the st are a bit cheaper) I might take a closer look at them.

i actually just ordered a GT convertible from sweetwater for $119,97 ... since the $99,00 st31 seem to be out of stock everywhere (GC and musician's friend say in their websites that they'll only get them in august) and the st33 is $199,00... i was trying to buy an st31 for almost a month... and hence you actually helped me there.. thanks...

once i give it a try... i'll post about it...

[Matt Grondin]

Originally Posted by manthe

You may be right. Although, it isn't really that I don't get a 'good' sound, just not a sound that I'm happy with. I have 2 different snares. One is a Pearl and the other a Ludwig. Both are metal. Perhaps I should go audition some wood snares.

Yeah..maybe I just need to get wood!

Again, look into the Edge snare. It's pricey, but it's a hybrid snare with the heads sitting on really thick gauge brass that are attached to a 10-ply maple center. It's the best of both worlds really. Samples on the way...

[manthe]

Originally Posted by dobby12

Again, look into the Edge snare. It's pricey, but it's a hybrid snare with the heads sitting on really thick gauge brass that are attached to a 10-ply maple center. It's the best of both worlds really. Samples on the way...

I

Looking forward to it...

I just got home from a long day of running errands. I was ably to pick up an i5 and a GT Convertible. Like I mentioned, I have a friend in retail,
so I won't mention what I paid for them (I don't want to make any one angry... )

I was hoping to be able to hook them up and start experimenting, but it is too late now. I'll make some time tomorrow and then post some samples of my various set-ups.

I really appreciate everyone's help and tips!

[Damian taylor]

Great samples Warren, cheers!

I've got a pair of SE3's that come with the little stereo mounting bar, sometimes it's cool to put BOTH of them under the snare, one at either end of the wires, and bring them in panned however far L/R you fancy. It's not stricly natural but gives the snare a nice bit of a halo in the mix. Obviously you could do this with any other mics, but the stereo mounting bar is dead handy in this context!

D

[insomnio]

Originally Posted by Zwinter

I suggest using a 57 along with a condenser. You put the mics right next to each other so the capsules line up. For the condenser mic I suggest getting a C42 or Gefell M295.

FYI, when I was working in LA I saw a lot of engineers record snare drums using this mic technique, and I am not talking about some low budget record. Stuff you hear everyday on the radio use this style of micing. The only difference is most of those engineers use a KM84 for the condenser mic. From experience I wouldn't substitute a KM184. They don't sound nearly as good as a KM84. In my experience the C42 and M295 are great alternatives for a KM84.

Although I don't have the heart to try a KM84 in snare, I've tried some condensers using that technique but can't find the snap I like. I end up using the 57 alone. Is there a special way to process the condenser with snare?

[Brad McGowan]

I've tried so many mics on snares over the last couple years. I personally find that the SM57 especially sounds like poo on wooden snares. It tends to fare a little better on metal snares. However, my current favorites are the Audix i5 when I want an SM57 type of sound with better transient response, the Sennheiser e604, and the new Audio Technica ATM450. I don't have much experience with the ATM450 yet, but from a couple of quick recordings I made it's really giving me everything that has always been missing from my snare sound. It's clear, detailed, takes massive SPL, is stupidly easy to position, and really reproduces the transients well.

I also recently had good luck with my SM7B with the midboost engaged on a 5.5" Black Dawg. Definitely a better alternative to the standard SM57.

I've discovered that adding a "butt mic" really helps make my snare drum sound like a snare drum and not some muddy thud. Try taking an SM57 and pointing it at the drummer's ass from a foot or two behind him, at ass height. Add a little compression during mixdown and voila.

Brad

[insomnio]

Originally Posted by warhead

Me too.

By the way that SE3 is really hefty, it just feels so good and looks quite different.

War

Hey War, thanks for the samples. I hated the Audix and loved the SE. However there is something about the 57 and the Eq that I can't explain. You really can shape the SM57 anyway you want. I tried the E604 for some time but I can't say the same about it. Most be cool for toms thou.

War, how does the SE behave at mix and eq time?

[SK1]

Originally Posted by stevep

57 is all you should need ..... if you cant get a good sound with one there may be other issues

try different snare drums till you find the one you like,

sometimes we go through a few snares to find the one we like for a given song, but most of the time the drummer already knows what will work for the song so its just tuning.

Yeah mics aside, it's great to have a bunch of nice snares around.
(you knew that ... ) I love going to the drummer owned studios where they have a large collection of ridiculously awesome snares.

Also with a drummer owned place, tuning is a non-issue.

The dream situation.

[Matt Grondin]

Here is that sample as promised. It's just a bounce from PT's... no mix really. I lightly comped and EQ'ed on the way in and will of course do more at mix time. The reverb is just a cheesy plug. This song is fairly long and boring without any other instruments, but it has several different feels as well as some sidestick stuff, which picks up incredibly well using the Josephson and the DW... in all, I'm not a fan of DW kicks or toms (all the other drums besides the snare is my set, which is a Grestch) but this DW snare sounds perfect to my ear. There's some juicy fills about 2-3 minutes in if you want to check them out.

Oh yeah, and with respect to Warren, thanks for the clips, but close mic'ed soloed snare tracks do very little for me to be able to tell the sound of a snare or how the mic picking it up is going to work in the whole picture with the rest of the drums. As long as the OH's are good, then I'm usually happy.

By the way, gearslutz bandwidth limit required me to crush the living hell out of it down to .mp3 (not as bad a myspace or anything) so it's a wee bit grainy :)

[Cymbals]

It sounds crazy, but a sheet of plywood under the drums does *wonders* for the sound for recording. I leave it that way to practice as well now. Want even more attack? Place sheets of plywood vertically behind you as well.