Flip phase: Bottom snare mic: Not always!

[AlexLakis]

Yet another installment in the "It's Way Too Early in the Morning" Lakis post series...

I never went to recording school (although I've taught a few classes.) In every recording school curriculum I see, they tell you to flip the phase of your bottom snare mic. Always. 95% of engineers have told me the same.

However, I don't always find this to be the case for me. In fact, I only find myself inverting phase on my bottom snare mics about 15% of the time.

Am I just getting lucky? Most of the time, when I invert phase, I notice a decrease in the body of the sound when listening to the drums all together, or just the top and bottom mic tracks at the same time.

I was mixing drums an hour ago when I decided to post this. I was, again, hearing not to flip the phase on my bottom snare mic. When I zoomed in on the two tracks in my DAW, they "appeared to be in phase." Also, when I inverted phase on the bottom snare mic, there was a 3 dB drop on my master fader when soloing the two snare tracks together. The two snare tracks together, as they were, peaked at -0.7. The two snare tracks together, with the bottom snare mic's phase inverted, peaked at -3.7. I check phase with my ears, but, generally speaking, would a 3dB drop like this indicate bringing something that is in phase out of phase?

So, basically, if it's in phase, don't flip it! Despite what you're told! Use your ears! Any thoughts?

[Led]

Did you track them? I tend to reference everything to the overheads and check the phase against them on the way in. Sometimes things sound better flipped, sometimes they don't, but having said that, inevitably one of the snare mics needs to be flipped in relation to the other on the way in for me. But I figure it's always best to go with whatever sounds best for the sound you are trying to get.
Oh yeah, I'm not so mathmatical, but a 3db drop would suggest to me that the two tracks are not exactly 180 degrees out of phase, so flipping it 180 wont cancel it out, just sound different. Pick the one you like best.

[studio825]

I the same as you rarly flip phase when top and bottom micing the snare.Placement is key when choosing to tandb mic snares.Tonaly quality will change when reversing polarity.

[AlexLakis]

Yeah, I tracked them.

I always check phase with my ears, and I check them with the two snare mics solo'd, and with the entire drumkit.

85% of the time or so, not flipping either snare mic results in more body and impact in my drum sound.

However, as I was messing with the peak levels in my DAW, it got me thinking. Am I liking what I hear just because it is louder, or because it is in phase? And, does louder generally mean more in-phase?

I just went back to the same session and did the same peak level test with the bottom snare and the overheads. When flipping the phase on the bottom snare mic, there is a 5.3 dB drop in level on the master fader.

I suppose I could level-match the two and see which I like better tonally, but that wouldn't be a good common-practice, I wouldn't think?

Now, this is peak level. I suppose it's possible that the highest point of the peak is in phase, but the majority of the rest of the signal isn't. Again, am I liking what I hear just because it is louder, or because it's actually in phase (or both?)

Like I said, I never went to school for this stuff. I've been making records professionally for over 6 years; I just use my ears, and nobody has complained yet! I'm just wondering if maybe there is a more...scientific way of going about checking phase for those off days (or sick days) where I have to track or mix.

[Doublehelix]

I tend to to flip the phase of one of the 2 snare mics most times, but as mentioned, a lot of that has to do with the mic placement.

There is a scientific explanation for why folks flip the phase, but this assumes a *perfect* world and perfect placement.

If you think about the 2 snare heads, and then think about 2 dynamic mic capsules and which way all 4 of these move when the snare is hit, it does make sense to flip the phase on one of the mics.

BUT...

This assumes that both mic diaphragms are *exactly* parallel to the heads, and are both *exactly* the same distance from the heads. When the mics are aimed at an angle (like most of us do), things can change.

So to the theory:

As you hit the top snare head, it moves down towards the floor, as does the bottom snare head.

Now, if your mics were set up so that the diaphragms are exactly parallel to the drum heads (one pointing down for the top head, and one pointing up for the bottom head), these diaphragms are going to move in the same direction as the heads, and *OPPOSITE* from each other.

The top mic diaphragm is going to move towards to grill of the mic as it follows the snare head down (negative pressure), and the bottom mic diaphragm is going to move *away* from the grill as it gets compressed by the bottom head moving down towards the floor.

What happens (in theory) is that the signal that these 2 mics send to the mic pres are exactly opposite (in theory) phase-wise. The top mic will produce a negative signal (-1), while the bottom mic produces a positive signal (+1).

Basically, the mic diaphragms are moving in *exactly* the opposite directions.


So much for theory, now reality states that we use our ears to find what works best. So much of this depends on the mic placement (distance from the heads and angle to the heads), and the problem becomes *much* more complicated than just flipping the phase 180 degrees.

Try using one of the Little Labs IBP if you haven't already. These work great for getting the snare mics to really work well together.

As you have mentioned, you really need to get all the mics on the kit working well together, so the relationship between the OHs, kik, and the snare mics are just as important. The kit needs to be treated as a complex instrument rather than a collection of individual drums.

The fact that you are using your ears rather than blindly following theory speaks volumes about your abilities! Great job! Theory means nothing if it doesn't sound good!

[5down1up]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

I notice a decrease in the body of the sound when listening to the drums all together, or just the top and bottom mic tracks at the same time.

thats how i used to know it as well ! when its " out of phase " the snare sounds is more an in the kit sound while the " flipped phase " has more body and the snare sticks out a lot more.

98% of the time, bottom mic gets phase inversed !
( you defenately need to check with the ears, wrong wires, different mics, broken mixers, everything could cause wired phase )

[Zwinter]

The problem that I often have is the snare top and bottom aren't in phase or 180-degrees out of phase, they are in the no-man's-land where flipping the phase won't totally help. So I find myself wishing I could have the crack when the phase isn't inverted and the body when it is. The solution that I have come up with is to use the Little Labs IBP. The IBP uses all pass filters to let you sweep from 0 to 180-degrees. It has saved my butt several times and I wouldn't do a mix without it.

[AlexLakis]

Thanks, Doublehelix! I did go to school, but I went for computer programming. Hence, my occasional tendency to try to get "scientific" about stuff that I probably shouldn't.

As it is, my top and bottom snare mics are generally positioned at around a 45 degree angle to the top and bottom head of the snare, respectively (and I doubt there both exactly 45, or at the same angle as each other period.) This was the case in the drums in question. If I was the kinda guy that mic'd both perpendicular to the surface of the drum, I suspect I'd have a lot easier of a time hearing the mics out of phase, and would adjust accordingly.

I haven't gotten a chance to play with an IBP yet, but I hope to some day! EDIT: I added IBP to the tag just for you, Zach.

I did some more extensive "scientific evaluation" (feh!) on the drum tracks in question. This included:

1. Impressions based solely upon listening (my ears.)

2. Peak level on the master fader.

3. Frequency analysis from a plugin on the master fader.

For simplicities sake, I focused solely on the snare drum and overheads, and discounted (muted) the room mics and FOK mic which were tracked as well (thru some pretty heavy compression, so, a combination of the distance and processing discounted those in overall phase relationship I found...I tested them too...I'm sick, I know.)

So, snare top, snare bottom, OH left and right (spaced pair.) I inverted the phase on the snare mics with Sonalksis' Free-G plugin.

The overheads were kept on the whole time (panned as I have them in the mix, about 75% out each way.)

I listened with both snare tracks as they are, the top reversed, the bottom reversed, and both the top and bottom reversed. In each test, I got the same results in each catagory:

1. Flipping the phase on either and both mics resulted in less impact and body as perceived by my ears.

2. Flipping the phase on either and both mics resulted in a lower peak value on the master fader.

3. Flipping the phase on either and both mics resulted in less low end between 125-250, where the majority of the peaks for both tracks was coming from.

In conclusion, I like what I hear based on what is louder and what has more body. I am thusly concluding that whatever results in more body and loudness (flipping or not flipping) will be what I want to hear, and, I'm guessing, more "in phase."

P.S. I rarely find myself flipping the phase on either mic in any studio I'm working out of using different mics, different monitors, etc., so I guess I can discount faulty wiring/monitoring/etc. from this theory, if not from these particular results.

[Absolute]

There are more than a few plugins that go beyond the, way too simple, flipping of phase. Voxengo has one..you can go anywhere with it

[Mike Caffrey]

Are you useing two of the same mics? Is the signal path the same?
Even if they aren't facing each other, from top and bottom, they're going to be coles to 180 out then in. If it's bigger fatter and louder, I'd test the path by sending tw identical signals down them mic cables, maybe use a splitter or a DI with two outs and see if there's a wiring problem.

If that doesn't reaveal a probelm, try positintion the mics so that you have to flip phase and see what happens.

If you making the decision by ear, and you not chosing betwee 90 +/-, you're probably making the right choice. But for the vast majority of people that means flipping, so there's something different about what you're doing.

If you're happy, don't change a thing, but it's worth finding out why you're having a different expereince than most people.

[absrec]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

Are you useing two of the same mics? Is the signal path the same?
Even if they aren't facing each other, from top and bottom, they're going to be coles to 180 out then in. If it's bigger fatter and louder, I'd test the path by sending tw identical signals down them mic cables, maybe use a splitter or a DI with two outs and see if there's a wiring problem.

If that doesn't reaveal a probelm, try positintion the mics so that you have to flip phase and see what happens.

If you making the decision by ear, and you not chosing betwee 90 +/-, you're probably making the right choice. But for the vast majority of people that means flipping, so there's something different about what you're doing.

If you're happy, don't change a thing, but it's worth finding out why you're having a different expereince than most people.

Beat me to it! I was going to say exactly this. The reason why you flip phase on the bottom snare mic is because the bottom snare mic is typically placed at a part of the drum that is 180 degrees out of phase (acoustically) from where the top mic generally goes.

Sounds like pin 2 and pin 3 are reversed in the signal path that you typically use for your bottom snare mic. I know personally that my bottom snare mic almost always goes in channel 4 on the mic snake.

You can use a meter to test continuity from your cutting room to your control room. That's where I would start. I've probably never had an instance where my bottom snare's signal chain wasn't flipped in relationship to the top.

Good luck,
-Aaron

[AlexLakis]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses!

For this latest test that I posted, it happened to be recorded in my home project studio. I used a SM57 for the top and a SM7 for the bottom. Both were placed at roughly a 45 degree angle. I don't believe there are any wiring problems.

It should be noted, again, that this "phenominon" is not exclusive to my project studio. I seem to get the same results from all the places I freelance out of. I'm generally micing the snare at 45 degrees each way. Sometimes, it's two 57s, sometimes it's not. Either way, NOT flipping phase on either mic usually sounds better to me. I've been making records for 6 years (some in one of the best live room/mix rooms in the nation,) and 85% of the time, I'm not flipping phase on anything.

Anyways, I did the test because of the high peak value and higher registered "snare" frequencies when I didn't flip as opposed to when I did flip. I wanted to see if I liked what I heard because it was louder or because it was more "in phase." I still don't really know, but it turns out I DO like what is louder and what has more body, and at this point, I'm assuming that's what's more "in phase," cuz if that's out of phase, I don't wanna be in!

[djui5]

whatever sounds better...

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

Hey guys, thanks for the responses!

For this latest test that I posted, it happened to be recorded in my home project studio. I used a SM57 for the top and a SM7 for the bottom. Both were placed at roughly a 45 degree angle. I don't believe there are any wiring problems.

It should be noted, again, that this "phenominon" is not exclusive to my project studio. I seem to get the same results from all the places I freelance out of. I'm generally micing the snare at 45 degrees each way. Sometimes, it's two 57s, sometimes it's not. Either way, NOT flipping phase on either mic usually sounds better to me. I've been making records for 6 years (some in one of the best live room/mix rooms in the nation,) and 85% of the time, I'm not flipping phase on anything.

Anyways, I did the test because of the high peak value and higher registered "snare" frequencies when I didn't flip as opposed to when I did flip. I wanted to see if I liked what I heard because it was louder or because it was more "in phase." I still don't really know, but it turns out I DO like what is louder and what has more body, and at this point, I'm assuming that's what's more "in phase," cuz if that's out of phase, I don't wanna be in!

I have no idea if I'm visualizing 45 degrees correctly, but if I am, that's the poistion that I'd consider the worst option. You're baiscally in the position where flipping the polarity will make the least difference.

Keep in mind, when you flip polarity and create phase cancellation, there's a good change you'll succed in canceling out things you don't want bleeding in, like hihat.

Because you sound like you know what you're doing, I'm very curious why your expereince is so different. I'd love to know what you ended up doing with polarity if you too two 57s, an pointed them at each other, like a mirror image, but with the snare in the middle - even if it was an unusuable poisition. I'd be very surprised if you had an identical signal and didn't prefer the sound of one mic flipped.

The more I think about i, the more I think you're expereincing the effeects of an odd mic position. Think about it.

If you have identical signals with truly "perfect" top an bottom placment, the signals would null each other out and there'd be silence. That don't happend becuase you never get that, the levels are usually a little different and the snare sound is not identical top an botom, but the physics don't change.

I used to think fat snare sounds came from Neve pres. Then I got some Neve pres and found out that was wrong. Fat snare sound come form Neve pres amplifing mics with proper positioning and phase relationships.

There are certian sounds you can not get without having nearly perfect phase relatioships through mic placement and auditioning ploarity.

[AlexLakis]

And just when you thought my posts on this thread couldn't get any longer...

Hey, Mike!

You bring up some good points! First of all, the times that I have set up a 57 pointed straight down and another mic pointed straight up (57, SM81, SM7, etc.) I have flipped the phase. That's when it's easy for me to identify. However, I usually set them up differently. Don't know why. Result of many sessions and many minor mental adjustments, I guess. Anyways, it's usually around 45/45. Probably more close to 60/25, to tell you the truth. That is, the snare mic is usually pretty angled, facing away from the hi-hat to minimize bleed, while the bottom mic is more "straight up." Of course, I don't always use a bottom snare mic, but I've been on a kick for the last two years or so where I almost always use one if I have the tracks to spare.

What I do know is that I'm getting the sounds I want out of the mics with minimal bleed.

So, yeah, mic placement and phase relation. I suppose what is happening is I'm entering a "grey area" as far as phase relationships go. That is, what I'm recording isn't 180 degrees out of phase with anything, but just partially out of phase with one or more things. Of course, this would be the case with anything; Not everything can be in phase. The trick would be to use phasing to your advantage to kinda catch things you don't want in these "phase null pockets." With a modern drum setup, this is no doubt happening all over the place. In this test, there was one kick mic, two snare mics, two tom mics, two overheads, two rooms, and a FOK mic. Yup, a couple of IBPs would be nice!

I'm happy with the results, tho. If I set them up this way, I usually process the rooms and the FOK mic pretty heavily on the way in, so I find they don't influence the phase relationships too much if at all (a combination of distance and waveform alteration, I suppose.)

Here's a quick question to see if I'm understanding all of this correctly: Let's say you've got four mics: A snare mic, two overheads, and a room mic. The two overheads and the snare are both pointed down, perpendicular to the surface of the floor. The room mic is pointed parallel to the floor (or perpendicular to the back wall.) Is it my understanding that this room mic would be roughly 90 degrees out of phase from the rest of the mics (since they are perpendicular to each other?) This is what devices like the IBP where built for; to adjust for phase in between 180 degrees, correct? Of course, we're only visualizing phase in two dimensions, not three! Sheesh! So many variables, eh?

Anyways, I started this thread because I wanted to get some good thinking going on behind phase relationships so that hopefully I and others could learn something. I've found it's not a very concrete subject, both in practice and in documentation. I particularly wanted to research the direct correlation between volume and "in-phaseness." There obviously is a correlation, and, in practice, I shall operate under this principle: When listening to all voiced tracks, so long as the increase in volume (due to flipping or not flipping phase) is in the frequency range I want it to be in (flattering to the instrument in question,) then good times will be had by all (or at least most.)

Like I've mentioned before, nobody has ever been there to hold my hand and tell me what's right and what's wrong in this field; I've just had to sink or swim. I don't always "know what I'm doing," but I do it, and after each project, I get better at it (whatever it is.) I'm still young in this game, but my clients are happy, business is good, and I like to think I do a good job! A big thank you goes out to you guys here at Gearslutz, who help to inform me and kick my ass when I need it! Thanks for reading!

[Mike Caffrey]

So it seems that your difference in expereince is a result of mic placement.


There is no definitive answer to your most recent question.

Let's talk hypothetically and you'll see how to think about it.

We've got you 4 mics in an anechoic chamber and our "snare drum" emits a 1k sine wave that due to magic room acoustics sounds exactly the same to each of the 4 mics when it arrives at each one.

Two mics in XY on the tip of the snaer would essentially pick up the crest of the sine wave simultaneously, so they'd be in phase.

If this sine wave was consant, the distance between mics would determine wheter the crests hit simultaneously. I'm hoping that makes intuitive sense. (Imagine a sine wave and pick to different locations. Suppose one was a crest, what's the other? Now move the second to either a crest or trough and you're either perfict of a polarity switch away.)

So the distance matters more (in this hypothetical example) that the direction.

That sort of answers your question.

Now let's add in some variable from real life. Change the mics, now, even if we keep the rest the same, the sound that hits the speakers is not identical becuase of different mic circuits.

Now change the source, to a drum. The transient arrives at different moments and it's short enough that you probably won't get much cancellation. The body of the sound may exist simultaneously at both mics, but it's slightly different volumes, so that alters the amount of cancelation you might hear.

Now change the room. You've got early reflections and reflctions that have been altered by absortion and differaction and you may be dealing with phase issues soley between relections, independent of the source.

So, while distance may have been the only thing that mattered in the previous example, the real issue is that the wave that enters each mic is not a pure sine wave and the non-close mic is really getting a different wave. Distance will still have an effect, but angle may because it determines what sound is hitting the diaphraghm.

Level will make a difference too and when you put a loud cymbal infront of your overhead and lower its sensitivty that's now havving an effect.

Another thing to think about is how this changes with frequency. Lower frequencies have long, long waves. In a 12 foot room, what are the chances of have two mics simultaneously at two different crests of a 30 foot wave or even a crest and a trough - the answer is zero becuase you need at least a 15 foot room. Or maybe the answer is that the chance is good becuase if the distance mic was 9 feet away that would be 12 feet out and 3 feet back by reflection, but softer in volume and hitting 9 feet into the wave.

This is why there are more problems audible in the low end.


So my official answer is, I don't know, but if you think off how it all occurs and listen and always A/B, you be able to make the right choices. The odds are that you'll never have a perfect situation, just a preferred sounding situation and there are a lot of common patterns, like flipping the bottom mic on a snare or tom or batter side kick mic or rear of a guitar cabinet mic.

[valverec]

To me I flip phase closer to 50% of the time. I tend to focus a lot on the phase of the snare in relation to the overheads, as others have mentioned. I find that to be as critical as the phase of the top to bottom mic. I've noticed that there's some relation to drum size and the need to flip phase.

[Bdiggy]

Most of the time for me as I tend to use 57's top and bottom (not always mind you).
I always check against overheads. I also check phase between toms, and inside outside phase with the kick as well. I've also used different phase... or variable phase to change tone a bit. I usually try to line up transients from triggered sounds as well to make sure everythings marching together. I go with what sounds the best to me and roll with it.

My .02

[Studiocat]

The other day I was tracking some drums and the snare mics sounded better in phase than out of phase...

So instead of just leaving it and getting on with my life, I cancelled the session, went to gearslutz, wrote 2500 words on the topic, and discussed it with my comrades for 24 hours. In the end, they just got mad at me and told me to "do whatever sounds good." I wanted some super technical answer, but I guess it's too complicated to analyze scientifically in this context.

So then I called the artist back to finish the session, and he told me to go to hell and said he was recording somewhere else. Now I'm out $5k and lost a good client.

What did I do wrong??!

A

[Studiocat]

oops! That was a little too snarky. What I meant to say was:

Originally Posted by Studiocat

"do whatever sounds good."

Actually I did have the same in/out snare dilemma the other day, and it sounded better in phase, so that's how I left it. If you don't like it, you can always flip it back or nudge it around later.

Cheers
A

[pigpen]

I think the moral to this, among other storeis on here is....
There is never an always...or at least should not be. Learn as much as possible, then put it aside and use your ears. Been saying it for years....If it sounds that damned good, how can it be wrong?

[Bdiggy]

Originally Posted by Studiocat

oops! That was a little too snarky. What I meant to say was:



Actually I did have the same in/out snare dilemma the other day, and it sounded better in phase, so that's how I left it. If you don't like it, you can always flip it back or nudge it around later.

Cheers
A

I thought the sarcastic answer before was much more entertaining

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

And just when you thought my posts on this thread couldn't get any longer...

Hey, Mike!

You bring up some good points! First of all, the times that I have set up a 57 pointed straight down and another mic pointed straight up (57, SM81, SM7, etc.) I have flipped the phase. That's when it's easy for me to identify. However, I usually set them up differently. Don't know why. Result of many sessions and many minor mental adjustments, I guess. Anyways, it's usually around 45/45. Probably more close to 60/25, to tell you the truth. That is, the snare mic is usually pretty angled, facing away from the hi-hat to minimize bleed, while the bottom mic is more "straight up." Of course, I don't always use a bottom snare mic, but I've been on a kick for the last two years or so where I almost always use one if I have the tracks to spare.

What I do know is that I'm getting the sounds I want out of the mics with minimal bleed.

So, yeah, mic placement and phase relation. I suppose what is happening is I'm entering a "grey area" as far as phase relationships go. That is, what I'm recording isn't 180 degrees out of phase with anything, but just partially out of phase with one or more things. Of course, this would be the case with anything; Not everything can be in phase. The trick would be to use phasing to your advantage to kinda catch things you don't want in these "phase null pockets." With a modern drum setup, this is no doubt happening all over the place. In this test, there was one kick mic, two snare mics, two tom mics, two overheads, two rooms, and a FOK mic. Yup, a couple of IBPs would be nice!

I'm happy with the results, tho. If I set them up this way, I usually process the rooms and the FOK mic pretty heavily on the way in, so I find they don't influence the phase relationships too much if at all (a combination of distance and waveform alteration, I suppose.)

Here's a quick question to see if I'm understanding all of this correctly: Let's say you've got four mics: A snare mic, two overheads, and a room mic. The two overheads and the snare are both pointed down, perpendicular to the surface of the floor. The room mic is pointed parallel to the floor (or perpendicular to the back wall.) Is it my understanding that this room mic would be roughly 90 degrees out of phase from the rest of the mics (since they are perpendicular to each other?) This is what devices like the IBP where built for; to adjust for phase in between 180 degrees, correct? Of course, we're only visualizing phase in two dimensions, not three! Sheesh! So many variables, eh?

Anyways, I started this thread because I wanted to get some good thinking going on behind phase relationships so that hopefully I and others could learn something. I've found it's not a very concrete subject, both in practice and in documentation. I particularly wanted to research the direct correlation between volume and "in-phaseness." There obviously is a correlation, and, in practice, I shall operate under this principle: When listening to all voiced tracks, so long as the increase in volume (due to flipping or not flipping phase) is in the frequency range I want it to be in (flattering to the instrument in question,) then good times will be had by all (or at least most.)

Like I've mentioned before, nobody has ever been there to hold my hand and tell me what's right and what's wrong in this field; I've just had to sink or swim. I don't always "know what I'm doing," but I do it, and after each project, I get better at it (whatever it is.) I'm still young in this game, but my clients are happy, business is good, and I like to think I do a good job! A big thank you goes out to you guys here at Gearslutz, who help to inform me and kick my ass when I need it! Thanks for reading!

Here's a thing for you to try, instead of pointing the snare mic, down at a 45 degree angle, pretend your micing the shell, but have the mic just poking over the top of the rim, about an inch or two back from the snare, then instead of micing under the snare, mic the shell closer to the bottom. You get no head ,and something far nicer than that ratty ass under the snare thing.

[cgarges]

I'm surprised that one one here has mentioned the possibility of the two mics outputting the positive leg on different pins of the connector. That would cause the mics to be of opposing polarity to each other before they ever hit the mic pre.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[norman_nomad]

This just in - Compression and EQ? Not always!

Pointless thread to follow!

/sarcasm



P.S. IBP rules. stike

[Studiocat]

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

Pointless thread to follow!

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Studiocat

The other day I was tracking some drums and the snare mics sounded better in phase than out of phase...

So instead of just leaving it and getting on with my life, I cancelled the session, went to gearslutz, wrote 2500 words on the topic, and discussed it with my comrades for 24 hours. In the end, they just got mad at me and told me to "do whatever sounds good." I wanted some super technical answer, but I guess it's too complicated to analyze scientifically in this context.

So then I called the artist back to finish the session, and he told me to go to hell and said he was recording somewhere else. Now I'm out $5k and lost a good client.

What did I do wrong??!

A

I'm not sure. I wrote 2500 words and then deposited a check for $2k per track for engineering drums. So in my expereince it pays to think and talk about this stuff.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by cgarges

I'm surprised that one one here has mentioned the possibility of the two mics outputting the positive leg on different pins of the connector. That would cause the mics to be of opposing polarity to each other before they ever hit the mic pre.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

And improperly wired cables or patchbay. That's why hypothetical examples have to specify identical mics.

[Vum]

I often, when using top and bottom snare mics, flip the inner kick mic as that is the one that usually falls out of phase with the snares. Always check with the overheads - you can always work backwards starting from there.

Phase is everywhere, use its "interference" for color - it isn't always a bad thing.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

Here's a thing for you to try, instead of pointing the snare mic, down at a 45 degree angle, pretend your micing the shell, but have the mic just poking over the top of the rim, about an inch or two back from the snare, then instead of micing under the snare, mic the shell closer to the bottom. You get no head ,and something far nicer than that ratty ass under the snare thing.

That's how I used to feel until a friend pointed out how much low end you can pull from that mic. Isolated it sounds terrible, but that mic is the difference between a snare drum and a tom, you know what I mean?

I've gotten to the point where I run it through the Culture Vultre and get really nuts with it.