Raising eq on Bass Looses over all level in mix

[passionmax]

I listen to some hiphop records like 50 cent etc. the kick has so much punch and depth. I try to achieve the same punch. I end up boosting the lowend in the kick at 130hzto 170 hz. I boost the synth bass from my SE-1X at 60hz to 90hz. I am usually boosting thekick about 8 db. The kick has balls but the problem I notice is when I mix I can't get the mix as loud as the tracks like 50 cent.

The reason I worte this was. I used a sample that was probably mastered. and I did not eq it. I added a couple of parts around it. I did not mix it. I did a digital transfer from my digital mixing desk to my DAW.
I then played back my first mix witht eh balssy kick and bass boost. and then I played bck the unmixed track.

The unmixed track sounded way louder.
both mixes are hitting zero. I know that low bass energy eats up headroom.

How do those hiphop records get the sounds so in your face and having depth with out sucking up all the headroom.
thanks
sorry for the long explantion.

[Tim Halligan]

In a word...mastering. You may also want to investigate multi-band compression over the 2-mix, but before any of that you really need to choose the samples and sounds carefully so that you don't have to add lots of welly via the eq which is what seems to be taking up all of the space in your mix. IMHO, choose sounds/samples that compliment - not compete.

Best of luck

Cheers,
Tim

[Tim Halligan]

In a word...mastering. You may also want to investigate multi-band compression over the 2-mix, but before any of that you really need to choose the samples and sounds carefully so that you don't have to add lots of welly via the eq which is what seems to be taking up all of the space in your mix. IMHO, choose sounds/samples that compliment - not compete.

Best of luck

Cheers,
Tim

[jazzius]

If the sound isn't already in the ballpark, mastering won't get you that much closer......mastering can only polish and tart up what is already there.......for the kick, search this forum for e-cue and thrillfactor and the word "kick".....the answer is right there.......

I'd steer clear of multiband.....you can achieve better results in the mix.

[Kaneepa]

In my experience, I pay a lot of time choosing/sampling from vynil/selecting the main kick + snare + hh + shaker + etc. samples... and then when the basic rhythm programming is finished on MPC4000, I track it to protools via multiple outputs choosing for each sound the right pre/comp/eq .

For example, I found that the SLAM! is wonderful for tracking Kick + snare, with a little bit of optical comp and a little bit of FET comp. I track the hh/shaker sounds through a UA 2-610 (for a softening effect) and eq'ing them via a massive passive .... but it depends on the song/sounds.

Another great piece of hardware for tracking "big" and "smooth" kick / snare parts is Empirical Lab Fatso! I use it at the end of my tracking analog chain, and it does miracles, for rounding the bass frequencies of big kick sounds (via tranny option) , and for taking out the harshness
of snares and hh (warmth option).


IMHO it's important to have, once tracked to pt, the main rhythmic sounds sounding right at the beginning, 'cause it's easier then to lay other parts on top of the Kick/Snare/hh sounding right.



Hope that helps...

Michele

[jazzius II]

Here's an example of a kick mult that would give you amazing control over your kick sound.......but you'll need good (full-range) monitors to make full use of it.......i'm sure the big-boys could chime in with some improvements to my suggestion!

[Onan]

Caveat: I'm an amateur. FWIW:

Ditto on the advice to choose the sounds well to begin with. But the VOLUME (which contributes to sounding "in your face") that modern records achieve is via lots of compression, which can be done at every stage from tracking to mastering. Many posts on this forum explain a common signal chain from tracking to final product:

1) Compress a little, sometimes with multiple compressors, during tracking.
2) Compress again (maybe more than a little), sometimes with multiple compressors, during mixdown.
3) Compress again (sometimes a LOT) with multiple compressors during mastering.

After that, radio stations will smash it again during playback, to try to make everything they play sound equally loud.

A lot of people argue that compression should be minimized. But in subjective listening tests, 9 out of 10 dentists prefer LOUD. The trick is to smash stuff without making it sound smashed (which can kill high frequencies and induce a "pumping" sound, not to mention add unpleasant harmonic distortion). I find that compressing a track 4 to 6 db three times with different compressors sounds better than compressing it 12 to 18 db in one stage.

If a listener puts in your record, and hasn't just listened to something else, yours will sound fine with all the dynamics intact. If your disc goes in right after a modern commercial record, yours will sound meek if it's not loud. With many stages of compression from tracking through mastering, it would not be too strange to get 20 db or more of compression.

There are a lot of pop/rock records coming out these days where nearly the whole disc has been compressed so much that the entire dynamic range is about 6 db--and they sound great. Remember that a decibal is a log ratio (I forget what base), where increasing 6 db is perceived as approximately doubling the volume. Most music today is listened to in noisy environments--at work, in the car, at clubs--where dynamics greater than that would mean either a) the quiet stuff would get lost OR b) the loud stuff would overwhelm.

Most people don't have dead-quiet studios to enjoy music in. You're not engineering for engineers: you're engineering for folks.

I hope others will correct my misstatements.

Lee

[passionmax]

Thank you so much for the diagram. that made total sense. the problem I am still tryin to figure out is the low end sucking up the headroom.
I will give you an example

I had a hiphop style kick. I boosted 140hz about db. to get the kick to have that punch I hear on Jay Z albums etc. The kick now sounds warm and punchy. but the problem is now it is taking up too much energy I asume because by the time I mix the track the final mix does not sound as loud as my other mix that I did not boost the kick at all.

The mix without the kick boosted seemd so much louder than the mix where I boosted the kick. I am going to try the multi effect.

let meknow if you any other solutions

[jlotto]

Originally posted by jazzius II
Here's an example of a kick mult that would give you amazing control over your kick sound.......but you'll need good (full-range) monitors to make full use of it.......i'm sure the big-boys could chime in with some improvements to my suggestion!

Thanks, Found that quite informative. Do u have a breakdown of a snare mult?

[syra]

My favorite piece getting things loud while having control is the SMC2B. If I want things extra loud I will almost always take down the 1st-band gain knob reducing the low freq energy...it works great...

In your case I cannot think of many kick samples needing an 8 db boost in the low register...I always find myself cutting to accomodate them in a mix...So...I think your monitoring system doesn't let you hear what you're really doing...what monitors are you using?

peace, syra

[passionmax]

I am mixing on Dyna audio bm6a
and NS-10. The thing is the kick does sound goo by itself. If I drop at 300hz then some of the muddiness goes away. But the gerth to the sound is not there. If you listen to hiphop cd's the kick is not loud all the time but it has a punch to the sound and the lowend is very tight. That is the sound I am trying to achieve
thanks

[jlotto]

Originally posted by passionmax
I am mixing on Dyna audio bm6a
and NS-10. The thing is the kick does sound goo by itself. If I drop at 300hz then some of the muddiness goes away. But the gerth to the sound is not there. If you listen to hiphop cd's the kick is not loud all the time but it has a punch to the sound and the lowend is very tight. That is the sound I am trying to achieve
thanks

what most hip hop producers do- Sample kicks/snrs from you favorite records or grab some kiks/snrs from mo phats/tritons. then add processing or mult. you may also need more bottom to ur monitoring situation for hip hop so u dont overcompensate during the mix.

[Oliver Hart]

Originally posted by passionmax
The kick now sounds warm and punchy. but the problem is now it is taking up too much energy I asume because by the time I mix the track the final mix does not sound as loud as my other mix that I did not boost the kick at all.

The mix without the kick boosted seemd so much louder than the mix where I boosted the kick. I am going to try the multi effect.

let meknow if you any other solutions

It may be that on your monitors, you can get the kick to be like the jay-z kick , but in that process you could actually be adding all kind of crap with the eq boost that you can't hear, and that the jay-z kick doesn't have.

On a side note, I have learned a production trick from listening to thrill and e-cue's mult techniques. Rather than waiting untill mix to give the kick what you want, if your using samples anyway, just layer them. It is not uncommon for me to use 10 kicks for the kick sound in the mpc. Need more thump? Layer in a thumpier kick. Need more attack? etc. This way you can create an original voice or tone and it contains all the properties you need sonically.

On another side note. Do you really care how loud it is? If I like the song I'm going to turn it up with the volume knob on my walkman.

Good Luck

-Eyedea

[David R.]

For EQ on the low end (bass or kick), I find subtractive usually works better than additive.

Instead of adding what you want, take away what you don't want.

Another great trick for a great kick - buss it and compress the buss.

Use the mult.

[Noah]

What about using a Filter? You can add resonance and a bit of gain to the specific freq on the kick, and it can help. With some soft compression on there you can probably get that big sound. Too much resonance and it gets big with no meat to it. Just a boom boom thing.

Good luck, I hope you solve your problems.

Noah

[jajjguy]

The unmixed track sounded way louder. both mixes are hitting zero. I know that low bass energy eats up headroom.

I've noticed a similar thing, but with any frequency range. I think with a big loud mix, you want it to be peaking near zero at all the frequency ranges. If you set up your levels so that every track is peaking near zero and then boost the bass frequencies on certain tracks, you're going to have to pull down the master fader a bit to keep from going into the red. This means that in the mix, your bass frequencies are no louder and the rest of the frequencies are quieter. If you have a compressor or limiter on the master fader, this will happen even if you don't pull down the master fader.

So the trick is to boost the apparent loudness of a frequency range without raising its peak level, which means compression.

[Aud.Manipulator]

The Log. of hearing is based on the Fletcher Munsen curve, and 3db is perceived as double the volume.

I agree with the subtractive EQing path. You just have to think a bit about what you're physically asking your speakers to reproduce. Low end is, by the law of physics, a large wave, and requires the largest amount of energy and throw of the woofer to produce. That being said, I almost always roll the low end (up to ~120hz) on either the kick, or the bass, and everything thing else that may conflict; guitars, vocals, synths. It just doesn't make sense to have more then one thing creating the Thump, unless you're in perfect phase... which is a monkey I'm not going to touch in this post. The other thing you have to consider is; what makes a kick punch? It's NOT the low end. It's the attack of the kick, around 2k. Based on the psychoacoustics of hearing, humans hear 1k-4k the best of all the frequencies. (hence emergency sirens sweep 1k-4k) Somewhere in that area, is the attack of your kick. SO, find that spot, and decide if you kick or your bass is carrying the lowest of the lows, and you're on the right path. Try EQing it first, then compressing the result. One more tip; the element that should sit lowest should move the slowest. EX: if your kick is playing rapid 8th notes, and your bass is sticking to whole and half notes, put your bass on the low end, and your kick above it. (no higher then 210hz, watch out for 250- the "card board box" frequency.

-AM

[jazzius II]

Originally posted by jlotto
Do u have a breakdown of a snare mult?

I dunno....for rock, there's probably a loada killer tricks, but that's not my thing.....

.....for rap/rnb, i think it's harder to fix with a mult.......a great snare (clap) is about layering samples in the production stage......in my (extremely limited) mixing experience (i quit mixing), producers don't like you messing with the snare too much...or the kick for that matter...

.....i think the mult technique for kick works waaay better then layering because of the phase issues you come up against....it just think you get a more homogenous (!?) kick sound with a mult

[imacgreg]

Originally posted by jlotto
Thanks, Found that quite informative. Do u have a breakdown of a snare mult?

One thing I've seen done for rock (could be used for other stuff too) is to break the snare down to the different sounds that make it up. Something like a separate mult for "crack", "bonk", "sizzle", "thud", (sure there are others) where the processing you do on each mult accentuates the sound of the snare in one particular area. Like for crack, you might use some compression to bring out some thwack, and shorten the decay. For bonk, maybe boost some of the ring/250-400hz area. For sizzle, anything that brings out the snare rattle sound, 5-7k or whatever. Then for thud, the low impact sorta stuff. Then you've got 4-5 faders (with or without the original snare track, prolly with) and you just blend to taste.

I guess this technique could be done with anything...

Ian

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by jlotto
Thanks, Found that quite informative. Do u have a breakdown of a snare mult?

Possible snare mult example:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...r&pagenumber=3


The snare along with the kick, bass and vocals are the most essential elements in todays mixes.

The majority of outboard processing I own is dedicated to just these instruments.

The snare is crucial because it gives you the "mid clarity" without having to add highs(which depletes the bass perspective).

I do the most parallels by far on snares and kicks.

Snares are the hardest to get right, but when you do its special.

I think in hiphop and rnb(especially hiphop) the snare is super crucial(just walkby someone listening to rap ona CD walkman and listen to snare just popping through).

[jazzius]

Originally posted by imacgreg
One thing I've seen done for rock (could be used for other stuff too) is to break the snare down to the different sounds that make it up. Something like a separate mult for "crack", "bonk", "sizzle", "thud", (sure there are others) where the processing you do on each mult accentuates the sound of the snare in one particular area.

I think the advantage of the mult technique is you can use extreme processing to bring out a certain part of the sound without messing up other areas.....like compressing the dogs-knot out of a kick will give you a nice bang but will mess up the low end........and it lets you balance the different elements of the sound against each other (volume-wise) to suit the song......

[jazzius]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor



I think in hiphop and rnb(especially hiphop) the snare is super crucial(just walkby someone listening to rap ona CD walkman and listen to snare just popping through).

S'funny.......you'd have thought these days, everyone would have killer drum sounds 'cause all they have to do is rip them off a commercial recording........but i still get a high proportian of mixes with super-crappy drum sounds.......which (IMO) confirms the importance of good monitoring (above all else) in getting killer sounds.........(i guess this also points to the importance of arrangement ......and how energy is distributed, mix-wise)

[Aud.Manipulator]

Originally posted by jazzius
S'funny.......you'd have thought these days, everyone would have killer drum sounds 'cause all they have to do is rip them off a commercial recording........but i still get a high proportian of mixes with super-crappy drum sounds.......which (IMO) confirms the importance of good monitoring (above all else) in getting killer sounds.........(i guess this also points to the importance of arrangement ......and how energy is distributed, mix-wise)

When it comes to rockin' drums sounds, it's all about tracking. If people would just pay attention to phase... zoom in and look!

-AM

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by jazzius
S'funny.......you'd have thought these days, everyone would have killer drum sounds 'cause all they have to do is rip them off a commercial recording........but i still get a high proportian of mixes with super-crappy drum sounds.......which (IMO) confirms the importance of good monitoring (above all else) in getting killer sounds.........(i guess this also points to the importance of arrangement ......and how energy is distributed, mix-wise)

I think also its a "self philosphy".

I came up in the rap studios with some engineers that i would refer to as the "Knockers". They would would spend days and hours on end working on getting the best sampled drum sounds.
I learned a lot from watching these guys. It was a very cut throat time and no one wanted to reveal their secrets(there were no forumns like this one). I was known as the "Efx guy"(and still am). But seeing these guys dedication to their drums help change my philosophy when it came to mixing drums. I learned a lot of the techniques I use today on mixing drums from these guys. They are all major recording engineers now. And they are still getting great drum sounds(live) to this day.

[ttauri]

Originally posted by Noah
What about using a Filter? You can add resonance and a bit of gain to the specific freq on the kick, and it can help. With some soft compression on there you can probably get that big sound.

Yeah. Adding a touch of resonant filter as part of a mult is something I've been playing with and liking the results of lately.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Mario-C.]

agreed, a resonant hi pass or band pass will do the trick nicely, but
be careful or your woofers might end up looking like wonderbra's

it also works when you create feedback intentionally with an aux or something...
just like some of the older analog synths...