producer artist agreement question

[SHIRK]

I have a band that I've been working with and I really love their sound, attitude about the biz and most of all...their songs. We've been demoing a bunch of stuff and are getting ready to cut the album. I wish we would have nailed this all down earlier on, but we/I've neglected to get it done. It's now time to get some kind of agreement in writing.

Here'e the scenario:

1) The band is unsigned and without management.

2) I will be producing and engineering the record.

3) The band has little to no money to spend on recording...I'm OK with that. I've got enough work to pay my bills and they are good enough where I'm still willing to throw all my energy at their "Spec" project.

4) The band says it's OK if I own the masters so long as I do not license any material without thier consent. (they are mainly worried about having their music slapped on some kind of TV ad) Not sure if this kind of limitation constitutes my "ownership of the masters".

5) The band is willing to split earnings from music sold via internet channels (itunes, myspace, CDbaby, etc....) They are willing to offer me a portion greater than 50%However, they want to be able to keep all money from CD's sold at their shows as this will go directly in their gastank and stomachs. Not sure how I feel about that. Keep in mind that they will be covering the duplication and packaging expenses.

6) We were thinking that we would place a $ amount on the cost of recording/producing the masters. Once that amount is met via album/song sales, I'm thinking I should turn over the ownership of the masters to the band. They have not requested this, but it only seems fair. When this set $ amount is met, I will continue to earn the residual income from album song sales. I figure that if they are picked up by a small label, this will give the label the opportunity to by me out of my ownership of the masters.

7) We have a great relationship as friends and creative collaborators. I want to protect that. And hopefully, when things happen for them (and I believe that they will) the management/representation will look at our agreement as fair and designed with good intent. I am older and have more experience than the the band members, so I am the one pushing the idea of signing an agreement. They would rather follow the "when we make it big, we'll take care of you" path. I have enough experience to know that that kind of idealism rarely works if the suits get involved. Doing demos with the band over the last few months has already brought some good word of mouth business to my studio so at the end of the day it's not about the money. I just want to be protected enough so that if their songs sell, I'm recouping my expenses as well as getting a piece of the action down the road.

These guys are real do-it-yourselfers...and are big fans of the "Clap Your Hands and Say Yeah" model. And I think they could pull it off...they are young, hungry, talented....nd most importantly, they are interested in doing it the right way instead of chasing the big label game. I respect them a lot.

Anybody have some similar experience or agreement templates that might be a useful starting place for me. Also if you see any holes in the outline of our agreement listed above, please feel free to comment.

Thanks,

Steve

[Barish]

Whatever you do, do not ever make someone else's problem yours.

Feeding their tummies is their problem.

When making agreements always think of a case where the success comes immediately tomorrow.

What would they do to your stake? Would they say "yeah man, you had waived your share when we were down and out, so we'll toss up a 50% as part of our gratitude" when money starts rolling in?

Why would you do to them something that they wouldn't?


I know this is cynical but that's how business life is.


Protect yourself. Being emotional about the business is a weakness any businessman must get rid of.


Music business consists of two parts: The Art, and The Business.

The emotional attachment to the Art of Music is what pulls us in this business.


But don't make the mistake of being emotionally attached to the "business part" of this business.


Otherwise you'll be prepared to do the Art whether you are paid or not.


And the moment that happens, I can guarantee you,


You'll be paid not.


Remember: Picasso was a smart man.


He used to pay the shop owners by cheque.


And most of those creditors never cashed their cheques, for they were signed by "Picasso".



I'm sure someone out there somewhere at some point called him an "asshole".


But he didn't die hungry.





Don't be one of those shop owners.



B.

[taturana]

and whatever you do get it on paper and with the help of an attorney...

i've had some pretty nasty spec deal problems before, so that's what i would do..

and as said in the post above, don't get emotional in the business side, i know i did a couple of times and invariably got f***ed doing it... even by friends who i trusted.

also what happens if they get signed and the recording company decides to re-record it all just to get rid of your share.. ( a typical situation) make sure you're covered in any situation... and put a money figure to it in that case...

[stevep]

Any suggestions for a good lawyer to draw up these kind of contracts ? im in the need of this also.

good lawyer ........ you know what i meant

[taturana]

i get all my legal advice from a friend of mine who wrote lots of songs with me (before going to law school) but he works in brazil... so couldn't help you there

[flail19]

It's important to remember that entertainment law is a specialty but it's not rocket science. Get an attorney that has experience in entertainment law but understand that there are standard entertainment contracts you can get and tweak yourself if you are short the dough. I sucks to have to deal with the lawyers and such but take it from me, I have been through the ringer when it comes to this end of the music biz.

[Greg Wells]

get a good lawyer NOW. it's fair to you and to them to have a clear cut agreement up front. no one in the music biz is your friend at the end of the day and you have to cover your behind. there's nothing unfair about that.

[cajonezzz]

Originally Posted by stevep

Any suggestions for a good lawyer to draw up these kind of contracts ? im in the need of this also.

good lawyer ........ you know what i meant

Steve- I have a good lawyer,and actually just got thru rev.2 of my new production contracts.
She's in-expensive ( 125 hr) and is entertainment contract law only. SD and LA.

call me.


cz

[GOD]

Been there, done that.
Best way is follow your nose IMO.
I asked the band for a meet after the recording of the record, of which I had produced and supplied all the facilities for, to cut some kind of agreement. What ended up happening was they saw me as a silent band member anyway, who's instrument of expertise, was my production and facility. Like you, these guys pressed all the right buttons with me in personality, as players and in attitude, but were I went wrong, was not sorting it out from the start, before any recording was undertaken. In any other situation, it could have gone so, so wrong, (I was fortunate) but it is a somthing I would never do again, regardless of how I feel about the guys. To set an agreement up from the start is the proffesional way to go, mainly because of the message you are putting out to the band. I'ts showing them that in a buissnes were ethics can get, (shall we say with influences and substances floating around), a little distorted, knowing where everybody stands if things do fly or disolve is settling for the process of being artistic. When and if success happens, more people come into the equation to influence and disrupt, it's all a part of getting to what they think should be their share.

[Jules]

3) The band has little to no money to spend on recording...I'm OK with that. I've got enough work to pay my bills and they are good enough where I'm still willing to throw all my energy at their "Spec" project.

Make sure you will still be happy if they hit it big (a contract)

4) The band says it's OK if I own the masters so long as I do not license any material without thier consent. (they are mainly worried about having their music slapped on some kind of TV ad) Not sure if this kind of limitation constitutes my "ownership of the masters".

Lots of bands feel naively that publishers are likely to sell their music to the Ku Klux Klan to use as a promotional jingle. See how quickly their 'morals' do a turnaround when a corporate giant like Coca cola or Starbucks want to use their music!

5) The band is willing to split earnings from music sold via internet channels (itunes, myspace, CDbaby, etc....) They are willing to offer me a portion greater than 50%

This is a little uncool, veering into Colonel Tom Parker (Elvis' manager) type of territory IMHO - I think in a dispute a judge would take a dim view of any manager taking 'a portion greater than 50%'

However, they want to be able to keep all money from CD's sold at their shows as this will go directly in their gastank and stomachs. Not sure how I feel about that. Keep in mind that they will be covering the duplication and packaging expenses.

How the hell can you account for what happens after shows after everyone has had a few beers?, given CD's away to pretty girls and boxes of them are stolen as musicians talking to fans have their backs turned? How can you ever know how many they have made? CD's bought at shows may serve as promotional tools - their friends can buy them on line?

6) We were thinking that we would place a $ amount on the cost of recording/producing the masters. Once that amount is met via album/song sales, I'm thinking I should turn over the ownership of the masters to the band. They have not requested this, but it only seems fair. When this set $ amount is met, I will continue to earn the residual income from album song sales. I figure that if they are picked up by a small label, this will give the label the opportunity to by me out of my ownership of the masters.

I would go for shared ownership of the maters - what if they get some fil / TV / sync rights / soundtrack stuff? Ownership of the masters becomes worth a lot of $$$$$ then.. I would go for 50% ownership & waive your rights to refuse use.

7) We have a great relationship as friends and creative collaborators. I want to protect that.

This can not be protected in a contract.

And hopefully, when things happen for them (and I believe that they will) the management/representation will look at our agreement as fair and designed with good intent.

Any incoming management will ***ing HATE and RESENT your agreement! It will piss them off no end that they got to the band too late to shaft you. THIS IS GUARANTEED

I am older and have more experience than the the band members, so I am the one pushing the idea of signing an agreement. They would rather follow the "when we make it big, we'll take care of you" path.

Not a secure way forward for your investment of time and effort.

I have enough experience to know that that kind of idealism rarely works if the suits get involved.

The suits will however HATE YOU for your contract with them.

Doing demos with the band over the last few months has already brought some good word of mouth business to my studio so at the end of the day it's not about the money. I just want to be protected enough so that if their songs sell, I'm recouping my expenses as well as getting a piece of the action down the road.

These guys are real do-it-yourselfers...and are big fans of the "Clap Your Hands and Say Yeah" model. And I think they could pull it off...they are young, hungry, talented....nd most importantly, they are interested in doing it the right way instead of chasing the big label game. I respect them a lot.

Anybody have some similar experience or agreement templates that might be a useful starting place for me. Also if you see any holes in the outline of our agreement listed above, please feel free to comment.

Thanks,

Steve

I have only ever made a few hundered dollars from spec deals so am no expert - use a lawyer for agreements - if this is to become a habit - perhaps get a standard spec deal drawn up that you can use over and over...? I am a big fan of 'studio owner as talent scout and them being rewarded fairly for time spent bringing forward new acts'

[SHIRK]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

And Jules, thanks for chiming in. I realize that you have a lot of experience in this type of situation (Getting unsigned bands to the next level) I really appreciate your input. And I totally agree with you on the idea of me getting more than 50% of sales...it just doesn't seem right. I would not feel very comfortable accepting that. Believe it or not , that was the bands' idea. Not sure why???

Thanks everyone.


Steve