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bmsander
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#1
18th September 2005
Old 18th September 2005
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Haas effect

I'm trying to add depth to my mixes by using short delays.

I've heard many people mention the Haas effect on this forum in regards to this technique.

The Hass effect states that "sound first entering one ear cause us to "not hear" the delayed sound entering into the other ear (within the 35 milliseconds time window)"

Does this mean my delays should be longer than 35ms for this technique to work, or should they be under 35ms to add depth but not be "noticed?"

thanks!
brett
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18th September 2005
Old 18th September 2005
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Absolutley.

The principle states that the ear [brain] perceives reflections [echo/delay/reverb] that return to the ear in under 19ms as part of the original signal... which can result in shit like comb filtering, etc... so, with that information you should be able to arrive at the answer you desire.

Peace.
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18th September 2005
Old 18th September 2005
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Shhhhh.....(this is the only thing I have going for me) ee
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18th September 2005
Old 18th September 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmsander
I'm trying to add depth to my mixes by using short delays.
Please explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmsander

I've heard many people mention the Haas effect on this forum in regards to this technique.
People mention all kinds of things around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmsander

The Hass effect states that "sound first entering one ear cause us to "not hear" the delayed sound entering into the other ear (within the 35 milliseconds time window)"
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmsander

Does this mean my delays should be longer than 35ms for this technique to work, or should they be under 35ms to add depth but not be "noticed?"

thanks!
brett
It depends on the source,track and tempo.

Also how you pan the delay.

It goes back to the original question...what are you trying to achieve?

Depth usually means more front to back than side to side.

Front to back usually includes reverberation and the delay there of.
bmsander
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18th September 2005
Old 18th September 2005
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Yes. Front to back depth and rounder, deeper sounds.

I'm running a pretty meager setup - an M-audio delta 1010 and Sytek pres with Logic DAW. That probably doesn't help.

I guess the answer to both of my original questions:

"Does this mean my delays should be longer than 35ms for this technique to work, or should they be under 35ms to add depth but not be "noticed?"

is yes.

and keep working at it
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18th September 2005
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I would also be interested to see if someone could chime in with some tips for this technique to work. I have tried it with various results using the sampledelay in logic, shifting one side. As I understand the effect would be greater if you roll of a bit of high frequency on the side that represents the ear the furthest away from the source, since your head is blocking the source.

For me it gives the same effect as various pseudo stereo plugins, the problem though is mono compability where phase isssues will occur.
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18th September 2005
Old 18th September 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmsander
"Does this mean my delays should be longer than 35ms for this technique to work, or should they be under 35ms to add depth but not be "noticed?"
The "magic number" is 19ms, not 35ms which is audible as a delay [it's kinda like a short slap echo where stuff under 19ms turns into like a phase event... modulate the time on it and you have a "phase shifter" [a.k.a flanger].

There was a box that was made decades ago called a "Cooper Time Cube". People laughed at this box because it was hooked up to another box that had two garden hoses inside. I mean green garden hose like you hook up to a sprinkler to water your lawn.

On one end of the garden hose was a driver, on the other end of the garden hose was a microphone of sorts... and inside the box one length of hose was like 14 feet and the other like 17 feet [or something like that]... which mean that when used as two independent channels you'd get a delays that were under that magic like of 19ms [Haas], or if you used them together, around 31 [slap-ish].

Inside the control head were 4x UA 1109 "limited frequency amplifiers"... one to power the drivers, the others to amplify the pickups (mics?). I'm not sure what the frequency response was... it seemed like it was like 400 to 3-4k [why pay for frills], and I'm sure the garden hose didn't help with the frequency response either.

The thing about the Cooper Time Cube was that when you used it on certain instruments [like vocals] you could create a depth that helped the track sit in the mix in an incredible way.

The way I generally use the thing is to set it up on a vocal, bring it up to the point where I can hear the effect, then drop the send to the unit by like 2-3db so you can't really hear the return of it. Every now and again during the course of the mix I'll mute the returns from the Time Cube to see [hear?] if the vocal gets a measure smaller sounding... as long as it does, then I have the return at the right level.

You can do this with short delays as long as you have a filter in front of the send to the delay [and sometimes it's a good idea to have one on the return from the delay as well] to limit the bandwidth of the event... and as I usually have a Thermionic Culture "Culture Vulture" on a send, I'll often have a bit of the return rolled into that to add a little distortion to the return for good measure... again, it's not something I'm looking to hear, it's something I'm looking to miss when I mute the returns.

I hope this was some measure of assistance... best of luck when playing around with this stuff.

Peace.
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18th September 2005
Old 18th September 2005
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The normal interpretation of Haas, is that usable effects

(of delaying one sound, and mix it in with the originial- with a minimum of comb filtering, and without hearing the echo) is obtained

Between 19ms and 35ms, some say.

Between 15-40ms others say.

The number 19ms refers to the point where the delayed sound has to be 10dB louder than the original to be heard.

It is also known as the precedence effect.

AFAIK.
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18th September 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmsander
I'm trying to add depth to my mixes
This is OT re Haas effect, but if you want to achieve a more striking depth dimension you might experiment with less or even no compression on the stereo mix bus. If your mix bus compression is raising quieter signals it'll have the effect of moving distant instruments forward in the mix. That is, it'll "compress" your depth dimension as well as your dynamics. Try it and see what you think.
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19th September 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmsander
I'm trying to add depth to my mixes by using short delays.

I've heard many people mention the Haas effect on this forum in regards to this technique.

The Hass effect states that "sound first entering one ear cause us to "not hear" the delayed sound entering into the other ear (within the 35 milliseconds time window)"

Does this mean my delays should be longer than 35ms for this technique to work, or should they be under 35ms to add depth but not be "noticed?"

thanks!
brett
What I take from the Hass effect theory is this -

When setting up short delay levels, say a original signal on one side and its (under 35ms) delayed 'double' on the other side of the stereo 'panorama'...

DO IT BY EAR

Get what you want to hear - and DON'T WORRY about what you see on the meters.. tutt

The Hass effect theory (in my opinion) is TELLING you as a mixer (balance engineer to use an old fashioned term) that levels ARE GOING TO BE 'whack' when you enter the short delay area...

I other words what SOUNDS balanced by ear will LOOK unbalanced by electro acoustic measurment. (or meter levels)

So in other words the real symmetry freaks out there, that like to look at meters for equal level...... are screwed..... when it comes to short delays.. They can't have their sonic balance (cake) AND a visual meter level (and eat it too).. PICK ONE



So the answer to the original question above is - keep it short, by all means - Hass is just telling you to TURN IT UP!
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19th September 2005
Old 19th September 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borau
The normal interpretation of Haas, is that usable effects

(of delaying one sound, and mix it in with the originial- with a minimum of comb filtering, and without hearing the echo) is obtained

Between 19ms and 35ms, some say.

Between 15-40ms others say.

The number 19ms refers to the point where the delayed sound has to be 10dB louder than the original to be heard.

It is also known as the precedence effect.

AFAIK.
The other thing to keep in my mind is that digital processors on their own induce their own delays.

Some do it in a cooler way than others.

That's part of the reason certain delays are chosen over others for work in the studio.
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19th September 2005
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Check the mono compatibility though!!!!!!!

Really fu**ed it all up for me once.
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19th September 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
What I take from the Hass effect theory is this -
what SOUNDS balanced by ear will LOOK unbalanced by electro acoustic measurment. (or meter levels)

The most important thing I ever got from understanding the Haas effect was the exact converse of that: you'll have a stereo signal that shows identical levels on the Left & Right meters, but sounds for all the world like it's just coming out of one speaker. Grok why this is so, and suddenly you have a very handy alternative to the panpot.
#14
19th September 2005
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You are repeating my meaning with different words but haven't realised it..
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19th September 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
You are repeating my meaning with different words but haven't realised it..

Wait, are you saying I've reiterated your intention with dissimilar locution but am not yet cognizant of that?
#16
19th September 2005
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Yo grok!

Yarsh! dass wot I'm shayin!
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19th September 2005
Old 19th September 2005
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my little secret

there is an old cheap box called SGX 2000Express, released towards 1994 by ART that I use almost on every mix of mine. In there I set a patch something like this:
ambience simulator >comp >exicter>amp simulator >flanger>st delay>Rev hall>master > autopan
With this cheap old box I have been able to reach very nice delays thickering the lead vocal via automation on interest passages of the vocal line. Some people asked me if it were lexicon 300 and I laughed -ee
Combined with a few different reverbers the sound is mazing. BTW, Mixing OTB and using a LPF on this very same SGX returns on the board.
Cheers
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#18
1st November 2005
Old 1st November 2005
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Haas again

Hi guys

I've been reading some cool threads concerning the haas effect and have been experimenting with creating space around a mono sound. I'm very happy with the results I've been getting.


Thing is, the effect sounds ok if the mono source is panned dead centre, but what about for example, creating a space for sounds that are panned extreme left or right, particularly rhythm guitars that are panned left and right. How would I go about using the haas in this situation to create a space?

I've read some good threads on the subject after searching the forum but am still in the dark concerning the haas effect and stereo sources.

Cheers

Mike
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1st November 2005
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Thing is, the effect sounds ok if the mono source is panned dead centre, but what about for example, creating a space for sounds that are panned extreme left or right, particularly rhythm guitars that are panned left and right. How would I go about using the haas in this situation to create a space?

A short delay to the opposite side, behind the original sound but not panned quite 100% hard left or hard right... like 9 or 3 o'clock on the pan knob... or even "up the gut" in mono should help.

Frankly I'm not 100% clear on the question... experimentation is probably in order here to achieve the sound you're trying to achieve.

BTW... sometimes a little modulation on a short delay can be very interesting when the delay isn't set directly behind the original sound... might be worth playing around with that as well.

Peace.
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2nd November 2005
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haas again

Cheers for the advice fletcher, I'm gonna give your suggestions a try. Sorry I wasn't to clear in my question earlier. I should have explained that I was experimenting with busses and auxillary channels in Logic (from a post I saw after a search, sorry I cant remember the authers name) where the mono channel goes to a buss then to two aux channels panned hard left and right with delays of 16ms and 32ms respectively.

The dry mono source comes to life when the aux channels faders are brought up, it's just that when I play around with the panning of the mono track I tend to lose the illusion.

Anyway, as you said experimentation is in order and I've got tommorow off! Thanks again.

Mike
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2nd November 2005
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Haas effect and phase

so i have been trying the Haas effect on heavy distorted guitar and I am not quite sure i am getting it right. The tone that I am looking for is the tone like the new Chevelle album, but I get a TON of phasy stuff when i check it in mono. Is there some trick that i should do to get rid of this, or do the big boys just let it go and not worry about a bunch of phase in mono....i haven't checked a bunch of albums in mono, so i dont know. Here is how i have my stuff set up.

- one mono distorted guitar track not panned
- one stereo aux track
- set the output of the guitar track to the input of the aux track
- set the output of the aux track to the master fader
- put a stereo delay on the aux track
- set the delay for the left side at 6ms and the right side at 12ms.

This makes a decent stereo image, but not one that blows me away. Also, like I said, there is a ton of phase in mono and I cant figure out how Andy Wallace did it without horrible phase in mono. I have searched all over on here and cant find anything. Is it possible that he doubled the guitar track and then panned hard left / right, then sent it to the aux bus? I just cant imagine that the Chevelle tone is double tracked because you can hear the tubes break up in both speakers. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a ton.

Allen
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2nd November 2005
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set your delay time longer. 6 and 12ms is too short. Try higher up around 30 or so... and adjust your sends on the guitar tracks just enough so it starts to fatten up the track but not hear the delay. You are using more then one mono track right? You will want to do at least 2 or 4 tracks and use different amp settings on the takes to beef up the sound.
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#23
2nd November 2005
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well, i am trying to only use one take. i want to hear the tubes break man. I haven't been using more than one mono track because of that. should i be using two and then pan hard left and right and send them to the aux with the delay?
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2nd November 2005
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Isn't hearing the tubes breaking on four different takes more badass than hearing the tubes breaking on one? Double, quadruple the guitar takes, then pan, and delay. Doing this the way you're trying to do it with just one track will definately get you phase issues, comb filtering, etc.
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2nd November 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLakis
Isn't hearing the tubes breaking on four different takes more badass than hearing the tubes breaking on one? Double, quadruple the guitar takes, then pan, and delay. Doing this the way you're trying to do it with just one track will definately get you phase issues, comb filtering, etc.
actually, no. i like to hear one tracks tubes break up in both channels. It sounds cleaner and more bad ass.
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Sorry I have to ask, and I am not trying to be a smart ass... honestly...



Quote:
I just cant imagine that the Chevelle tone is double tracked because you can hear the tubes break up in both speakers.
You can hear the "tubes break up?" What exactly are you hearing, can you describe this?
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uuuhhhh, damn, this is hard to explain....what i am hearing is the tone of the guitar pulsing i guess. it isn't like a smooth sound, it is the tube literally pushing and pulling energy from the amp....it is this pushing and pulling that i am hearing as "tube breakup". link to example
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aetucker1
uuuhhhh, damn, this is hard to explain....what i am hearing is the tone of the guitar pulsing i guess. it isn't like a smooth sound, it is the tube literally pushing and pulling energy from the amp....it is this pushing and pulling that i am hearing as "tube breakup". link to example
Hummm....

Well the clip was really short so I could be wrong but I don't really see why this would not be a doubled part? It does feel delayed but that could just be the parts played a bit out. As far as the "tube breakup" thing, to me these just sound like tube amps pushed pretty loud so nothing here that woud lead me to think this is or is not a doubled part.

If it is one guitar part and delayed in stereo then the fact that I can hear the delay means you need to work higher than 6 or 12 ms. 6 or 12 ms is going to cause phase issues but not anything that the ear would discern as a true delay effect. I agree with 7, try higher delay times to match that clip, 30 35 ms or so to start.
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i recorded that clip that i posted. it wasn't meant to be an example of what i want, it was meant to be an example of tube breakup. since i recorded it, i know that it is one guitar, one take, delayed 6ms and 12ms. i will try a wider delay i guess, but at the delay time of around 30ms the tracks get muddy and the definition is no longer there.
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2nd November 2005
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It's hard to tell from your post, but are you also sending the direct signal to the mix buss?

Try taking the original mono track panned up the center or slightly off-center. Then feed the delay aux track from a send. You will end up with three signals. Non-delayed center, and delayed left and right. Adjust the delay time to around 25-35ms. If this sounds too muddy, try rolling the hi-pass up to clear the mud.

You could also try micro-pitch shifting the delay signals too...
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