New Waves Convolution Reverb

[nkf]

Originally posted by morpheus
But Logic users may soon find the only company selling Logic plugins is Apple themselves because other companies can't compete with Apple, who uses their hardware sales to subsidize the software. The only other plug-in companies left will be the small shareware type developers.

Very good description and I have similar thoughts concerning Emapple. As a long time Apple and Logic user I think Logic is for Apple just an instrument for selling their hardware in a certain markt segment. Just right after Apple/Emagic forced developers to develop for the AU format and they started getting sales for it Apple compete to them with plug ins practically 'for free'. That's how they have let the developers let run into a rusty knife. But Apple is trying to monopolize their platform as much as they can and in the end it may be a monolithic Apple music production platform on one side and a Windows platform with a lot of diversity of tools, plug ins and formats.

[morpheus]

I thought AU was going to be like RTAS/TDM (cool but expensive plugins like McDSP, Bomb Factory, Massenburg, Sony). Instead it is turning out more like VST (lots and lots of free and cheap plugins, but 90% of them aren't very good).

Apart from Waves and NI, is anyone making high end AU plugins or are AU plugins mainly cheap shareware versions?

[hmurchison]

Originally posted by morpheus
I thought AU was going to be like RTAS/TDM (cool but expensive plugins like McDSP, Bomb Factory, Massenburg, Sony). Instead it is turning out more like VST (lots and lots of free and cheap plugins, but 90% of them aren't very good).

Apart from Waves and NI, is anyone making high end AU plugins or are AU plugins mainly cheap shareware versions?

AU is still relatively new, it'll take a couple more years before it reaches full maturity. The larger the company the slower the movement it's pretty much true in most cases of software development.

I see consolidation at every level. Large companies will continue to swallow up smaller companies. This will not change for a while. What matters is expanding the market for music products. Apple offering a great deal on software has the potential to hurt smaller developers but it also has the potential to increase the market.

[robdarling]

"Increase the Market"?????

Making music is not video editing and photo organization. It isn't a jukebox. It is the ability to speak and write in a specialized language. You will not be increasing the market by cannibalizing the people who make the tools for a specialized business. I'm sure this is the same kind of line people used when Harman started buying up all the best names in Pro Audio and turned them all into the garbage they are now.

[Bob Olhsson]

I've got to agree that this is classic Silicone Valley bottom-feeding at its worst. Photography and music are the two most popular hobbies in the United States. Apple has pulled the financial rug out from under the middle-class of developers for both.

The ONLY result will be higher prices at the high end with most of the real bargains going away. You already see this in the price differential between TDM and RTAS-only plug-ins. BF is probably going to turn out to be the first of many Digi plug-in acquisitions as they go head to head with Apple.

[hmurchison]

Making music is not video editing and photo organization.

Sure it's different but the market dynamics are the same. Place more tools in the hands of the people and you will get returns.

You will not be increasing the market by cannibalizing the people who make the tools for a specialized business.

Then how do you explain plugins? Adobe Photoshop and even the beloved ProTools have all experience Cottage Industries form around them. Therefore it is possible to increase the market based on a Mothership/Satellite configuration. The key is getting the Mothership strong.

I don't know fellas. 5 years ago it would have cost $50k to do what can be done today for 10K. I like paying 5x less and getting the same power. Don't worry the market will be fine. As I said before there is market contraction right now and consolidation is happening everywhere

[wags3d]

Good point Morpheus. I did not see that aspect of what is going on behind the scenes with these companies. I guess I got swept up in the fact that UA was putting out a bundle that included the Fairchild and then I saw the Logic 6 Pro bundle with the Space Designer included, so Gear lust clouded the bigger picture for me.
Also I did not know about the Bomb Factory situation other than they had been bought.

-Wags

[morpheus]

Originally posted by hmurchison
Adobe Photoshop and even the beloved ProTools have all experience Cottage Industries form around them. Therefore it is possible to increase the market based on a Mothership/Satellite configuration. The key is getting the Mothership strong.

You don't understand. Where Apple is the Mothership, they don't want any satellites.

Look at all the Mac hardware and software developers Apple put out of business in the last 3-4 years. Anyone remember Cassady and Greene?

Apples plans to do two things to the music plugin market. One, include almost every plug-in possible into their own software, either GarbageBand or Logic. Two, set AU plugin pricing to less than $49. Given those conditions, most of the innovative companies doing plugins today cannot survive on the Apple platform.

Comparing it with Adobe and Digidesign isn't relevant. Adobe and Digidesign haven't gone out of their way to kill off plug-in developers, although Apple will probably force Digidesign into this at some point by continuing to bundle all of their plug-ins with Logic. Apple has realized that Digidesign's strength is all the cool TDM plugins, and so this Apple strategy is explicitly designed to counteract that.

It's a perfectly valid business strategy if, like Jobs, you believe everyone should run the same Apple hardware and software. I don't think it works well in the creative markets because it stifles innovation from smaller companies.

[morpheus]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
You already see this in the price differential between TDM and RTAS-only plug-ins. BF is probably going to turn out to be the first of many Digi plug-in acquisitions as they go head to head with Apple.

Right. In fact, if you were a plugin developer today your best option would be to cultivate a 'premium' image, and develop solely for Pro Tools TDM, and maybe RTAS.

[hmurchison]

You don't understand. Where Apple is the Mothership, they don't want any satellites.

Incorrect.

Final Cut pro- Plugin Support
Logic- AU and Apple Loops SDK
iDVD- SDK for themes
iMovie- Plugins
Garabe Band- Apple Loops SDK
Keynote- Themes

See where some people whine about losing opportunity others seize the moment and find out ways to expand the product. Competition always benefits the consumer although consolidation affect these you cannot quelch the spirit of a small developer.

Apples plans to do two things to the music plugin market. One, include almost every plug-in possible into their own software, either GarbageBand or Logic. Two, set AU plugin pricing to less than $49. Given those conditions, most of the innovative companies doing plugins today cannot survive on the Apple platform.

Patently false. The goal of AU was to provide better support for plugins. VST is nice but the documentation for creating good hosts is insufficient. Apple will not be lazy about Host Docs meaning more stable software. Apple could care less where you price your plugins. The bundling of Emagics plugins is logicstical. Emagic's goal was to make money selling software. Apple's goal is to make money by selling hardware.

Comparing it with Adobe and Digidesign isn't relevant. Adobe and Digidesign haven't gone out of their way to kill off plug-in developers, although Apple will probably force Digidesign into this at some point by continuing to bundle all of their plug-ins with Logic. Apple has realized that Digidesign's strength is all the cool TDM plugins, and so this Apple strategy is explicitly designed to counteract that.

Totally asinine logic. Apple has done nothing that Adobe or Digi haven't. Digi bought BF and closed that. Adobe Bundles their apps together for an unbeatable price yet I hear no complains. Sorry folks the Emperor Doesn't have clothes in your arguement.

[morpheus]

Originally posted by hmurchison
[b]Incorrect.

Final Cut pro- Plugin Support
Logic- AU and Apple Loops SDK
iDVD- SDK for themes
iMovie- Plugins
Garabe Band- Apple Loops SDK
Keynote- Themes

I didn't say Apple doesn't support the idea of plug-ins. But I don't see many companies rushing into those markets with innovative products either.

Let's take your chosen example of iMovie plugins, which proves my point exactly. Do a google on iMovie Plugins and what do we find on the first page? BKMS selling 3 for $20. Stupendous offers 35 plugins for $25, or 129 plugins for $200. Virtix offers 38 plugins for $39.

Do you really think audio developers can produce professional level plugins at these price points? Is George Massenburg going to put his name on a $39 EQ? Even if Apple manages to magically expand the music market by 100% (which they won't), most plugin companies cannot survive at these price points.

Apple's goal is to make money by selling hardware.

Which means they are free to devalue software if it helps sell boxes. How does that support your argument?

Totally asinine logic. Apple has done nothing that Adobe or Digi haven't.

Show me where Adobe or Digi have bundled every plugin they sell with their core product, for less than $1000.

Digi bought BF and closed that.

Incorrect. Digi bought BF and they are selling BF plugins but only for Pro Tools. They discontinued MAS. How is that 'closed'?

Adobe Bundles their apps together for an unbeatable price yet I hear no complains.

Wrong again. The secondary market I am talking about is for third party plugins, not applications.

Sorry folks the Emperor Doesn't have clothes in your arguement.

Sorry, but you've failed to present any valid arguments whatsoever.

[hmurchison]

Come on people. Emagic has what 6 plugins?? An these plugins only work from within Logic so in essence they aren't harming any developer. I still see people who want Waves and Altiverb and the other plugins. Spectrasonics is very popular and does things that no emagic plugin does.

I think people are overreacting to this. Garageband is more dangerous than Logic Pro IMO.

Good rebuttal though Morpheous(Take the Blue Pill)

In ways you are right but I still find that you're underestimating the market. There will always be a need for small developers. Look at what that programmer has done with Melodyne. Not too shabby.

[nkf]

Originally posted by hmurchison
Apple has done nothing that Adobe or Digi haven't. Digi bought BF and closed that.

Some specialised hardware Digi sells aside, the difference is that Apple wants to propel computer hardware sales. They try to produce a closed market they control ... ok they do this since years but now they start cannibalizing the partners they wanted to attract in the past. It's all more aggressive now and I think it will affect the users massively by narrowing the choices to a degree that Apple dictates a 'take it or leave it'.

[hmurchison]

With one caveat. Only if you choose Logic.

Apple can give away every logic plugin but it means naught if you run Digital Performaer or Cubase/Nuendo.

Let's be honest the whole "Apple is out to get us" is pure hyperbole.

[morpheus]

Apple demonstrated two new plugins at NAMM, so I guess they will be part of Logic when they are ready. Logic Pro now includes the following existing plugins:

Emagic Space Designer, ES1, ES2, EXS24 mk II, EVP88, EVB3, EDV6 and EVOC20 vocoder/filterbank package.

Over 50 effect plug-ins included: various delays, reverbs, distortions, dynamics, modulation effects, BitCrusher, Auto Filter, Enveloper, Spectral Gate, etc.

Of these, Phase/Clip Distortion, Denoiser, DeEsser, Tremolo, Stereo Spread, Exciter, SubBass, Limiter, Adaptive Limiter, Multiband Compressor are new.

The two leading AU compatible platforms are Logic and Digital Performer, but Apple's action reduces the need that Logic users have for new plugins as far as I can tell.

I agree GarbageBand is also a threat however at the low end of the market. I bet Ableton, Arturia and companies in that part of the market will see the impact of GarbageBand, whereas Digi, MOTU and Steinberg will see mainly the impact from Apple driving Logic prices down.