Any guitar players with carpal tunnel?

[max cooper]

I've been struggling with it for some time now. I did a couple of tours where it was starting to crop up, and I'd sometimes lose my grip on the pick and end up bashing with my right index finger, reinforced with my thumb.

But now the main problem is my fret hand. Sometimes it just goes numb; totally.

I know about the surgery, but I'd like to know about some alternatives.

I play bass a lot, and it doesn't seem to bother my hand at all. I think it's making chords. The combined force of holding down all the strings seems to aggravate it. I've been playing for around 25 years, so I'm not a beginner or anything.

I try to go to lighter strings, but anything below a .012 sounds like crap to me.

Meanwhile, I'm learning piano. It doesn't bother my hands at all.

How do you guys deal?

[gtichy]

I know this sounds weird, but try holding your hands straight up above your head, then wiggle them for 20sec...then let them relax at your side - repeat - helps get the blood flowing before a long practice session. Also be sure to warm up, and cool down. At gigs, there is a herbal supplement you can take, but I forget what it is.

You won't go lower than 12's on electric?? Gauge really shouldn't matter if the guitar is set up well, anyway (playing wise, aside from bends) - but I'll put in my two cents that experimenting with pick gauges, shapes, materials, and technique will impact the tone of the instrument far more than changing string gauges.

Try dropping a gauge and going with a stiffer pick?

[dbbubba]

Hey Max....

I used to play with Joe Kubeck nad he insisted that using 12s was were it was at.
We jokingly called his strings "clothesline wires."
It bothered his hand, too.
This was in the early '80s.

I have used 11s since then and have no problems with tone!
It also doesn't bother my hands.
I can play all day without any adverse effects.

Back down a guage!

Danny Brown

[not_so_new]

I was getting all sorts of problems with my hands from drumming for 20 + years, keys for 20 + years and guitar / bass playing for 30 + years. I was having exactly the same problem as you, lots of pain, tingling, loss of feeling. Had me really really worried.

Started Yoga about two year ago.... after the first 2 weeks of Yoga I have not had any problems at all. Correction... I have had a few very limited problems. This week has been kind of bad (nothing nearly like it was before Yoga) but that is only because of the holiday and I have not been able to do my routine.

Any time that I think Yoga is not helping I just have to take 3 days off in a row and things start to tighten up.

I can not recommend this enough, if you are having problems with your fingers / hands / arms / knees / legs try Yoga. It is not BS. I have not felt better in years, even when I was a weight lifter and or a pretty active cyclist.

[davedarling]

Hey Max -

sorry to hear it - that is a bitch.

Moving your guitar height around helps a little, ice, a good brace on the wrist, and accupunture works well for some people.

good luck - Dave Darling

[ozraves]

Contact me through the PM system if you want some serious advice. I got one hand that's operated and the other that is not.

All I'll say here is that there is a major sleep component to carpal tunnel. Wearing braces on the wrists at night can be beneficial to most persons.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by davedarling

Hey Max -

sorry to hear it - that is a bitch.

Moving your guitar height around helps a little, ice, a good brace on the wrist, and accupunture works well for some people.

good luck - Dave Darling

I've had carpal tunnel for years and have learned to deal with it pretty well, for me it's in the right hand, there were times it was so severe I couldn't shift gears in my car or shake hands. I'm sure acupuncture can help and although I go regularly to an acupuncturist, she treats me for other stuff. Ice will definetly help, so will Ibuprofen, it's an anti-inflammatory, chiropractic helps alot if you have a good guy. You need to think about strengthening your wrist, there are excersises that can help. A brace while it's real bad is a good idea. You have to warm up slowly and carefully now. I used to play with 12's myself, I've gone down to 11's it's not a big deal.

[FFTT]

I've had times where my wrists and fingers cramped up so bad that I could barely make it through a set and that was 25+ years ago.

The only things that seem to help are good warm ups and staying in good practice form.
Some players use an exercise ball or gripmaster to help build muscle strength, but too much can affect your dexterity.

These days I take one Aspirin a day to help circulation, but I drink so much coffee
that I'm probably counteracting the good it does.

Try to avoid any use of tools that might cause repetitive shock injuries like hammers, impact drivers etc.

[kissingonstilts]

I've had it for the better part of a year now, and it is indeed nauseating.

I've been playing for over 40 years, and all of the medical professionals advised me to stop playing for several months, but I teach for a living so that isn't an option.

Mine came from overuse - repetitive chord forms (I'm thinking barres) for multi-hours a day.

All of the previous advice is beneficial - warm-up, ice, stretching, brace, massage, physical therapy, and above all (I think) REST. It needs to recover.

I used 13s for most of my life (acoustics) and went to 12s - it helps; I've' 10s on the electric. The 12s invite other things to happen musically, but, of course, the tone is somewhat diminished in colour and glow.

I've also noticed that having the neck up (somewhat like a classical player) helps the position of the hand/wrist. Klein electric instruments put the neck in this position naturally - it helps a lot but Kleins are rare and somewhat expensive.

The most difficult part for me has been not being able to play freely - the physical inhibition has stilted spontaneity; and my enthusiasm for playing is now threatened by the pain. I play because it is part of my design, and now I'm 'imprisoned' - that's what it feels like. Very strange.

Hope you improve quickly - by being attentive and mindful, I suspect you will.

[Cornvalley]

If you're on caffiene you might want to give that up an see if it helps.
There is a mehod of bodily movement called the 'Alexander Technique' that can help open up the nerve pathways to the affected area. Great for musicians.
Since your symtoms evolve while you are playing it has it's roots in tension/stress producing positions, be it hand/wrist, neck/shoulder/arm, etc.
Alexander teachers have been trained to spot these strained relationships and can guide you in finding them and helping to eliminate them.
Hope you can get free the symtoms so the music can flow.
In the meantime, do some slow windmills with your arms letting your 'chi' flow out though the fingertips. It'll help with the loss of feeling temporarily until you can get more knowledge from a trained teacher.
Hope this helps.
Yeah, piano is like strolling down a sidewalk ain't it?

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Started Yoga about two year ago.... after the first 2 weeks of Yoga I have not had any problems at all. Correction... I have had a few very limited problems. This week has been kind of bad (nothing nearly like it was before Yoga) but that is only because of the holiday and I have not been able to do my routine.

I started Vinyasa several months ago; now I do Bikram five days a week. No real improvement in the hands yet, but what it's done for my singing is pretty unbelieveable.

I do believe it's gonna help overall, though. It's helped just about eveything else.

Originally Posted by ozraves

All I'll say here is that there is a major sleep component to carpal tunnel. Wearing braces on the wrists at night can be beneficial to most persons.

I'm interested. I'll contact you tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Cornvalley

If you're on caffiene you might want to give that up an see if it helps.
There is a mehod of bodily movement called the 'Alexander Technique' that can help open up the nerve pathways to the affected area. Great for musicians.

Oh no! Ok, I'll consider the coffee thing. (scared, though!)

My dad studied Alexander Technique for years; he began studying dance when he was in his forties; I always thought it sounded interesting.

Also, people have suggested being Rolfed, but other opinions seem to be that yoga can get you there, somewhat.

Thanks for all the info!

Max

[matt_l]

I have it in my right hand; 5-10 mins of aggressive bashing (thanks Pete for the influence) brings it on and my thumb, index, middle and ring fingers go numb. BUT not the pinky. This is supposedly the hallmark of carpal tunnel. I brought it on through extensive woodworking a few years ago. I really only have it when I play but what a problem. I could not possibly gig with the way it is, and am looking for remedies other than surgery. Also, if I curl my fingers into my palm to make a fist (the martial arts way), I can't do it past the second knuckle. It's really weird, and it hurts to try. My left hand is fine, thank God.

Gonna dig out the wrist support and try it at night. Thanks for the reminder.

Matt

[theblue1]

You might try changing your guitar position.

I was getting a number of issues from playing with the guitar on my right knee while doing a lot of finger picking. Along with right shoulder issues from hanging my arm over a big ol' dread, I was getting right wrist issues and to a lesser extent left wrist stuff.

So, most of the time, these days, for any "serious" playing, I use a classical guitar position: left knee, neck more upright.

It's possible that moving the whole guitar up or down (I assume you play standing on stage) and changing the angle of play might ease some of those issues. (You might not LOOK as cool, though, if that sweet spot puts the guitar up high... but if you can't play at all, how cool is that? Not too, I'm thinking.)

Also, watch OTHER activities.

I had my first bout with carpal tunnel problems when I spent three days almost straight typing on my old, flat keyboard (Great American Novel attempt # 4)... it was like my tendon was on fire.

I happened to have to buy some ink and laid my hands on a Microsoft Natural keyboard (non touch typists hate them) and it was love at first touch. I'm on my second one. (The cable got hinky!!! Damn wires.) AND... depending on what I'm doing, sometimes I have to be careful with my mousing, because I'll end up with my wrist bent back and that's a no no...

[James Lugo]

I've dealt with hand pain and numbness for years. I was a shredder as a kid and all the endless hours of scales have takin' there toll. Now out of the blue my ring finger on my picking hand won't bend, very strange. It's not even a factor in my playing, it feel like it could be the beginning of arthritis. Good luck.

There's a doctor out here in LA that is famous for helping rock stars out, he's Billy Sheehan and Stun Hamm's doctor. I google searched but could find his info. He runs ads in some of the trades out here in Hollywood.

[elambo]

I'm starting to lose dexterity, but more from using a mouse and trackpad than shredding. It does however make my guitar playing suffer. I'm afraid to think how I'll be in another 20 years. Carpal Tunnel problems have only just started to surface.

[indie]

Hey guys...here's a homeopathic approach.
I'm a guitar player, and I started to develop it about 6 years ago. I started taking vitamin B6 and B12 for 2 weeks (WATCH DOSAGE THOUGH) and fish oil capsules.
After the 2 weeks, it was gone. That worked for me, not sure if it will work for you, but give it a shot.
ALSO ------ if you eat sugar, stop. It causes inflammation and makes inflammation worse.
So does coffee...but I have to have that.
Good luck bro!

[matt_l]

perhaps we should start up a CT support group and try different approaches. I volunteer to provide the first homeopathic alternative to surgery: generous quantities of an exilir called KNOB CREEK.



Matt

[FFTT]

My doctors want me to stop smoking and go decaf to help with my hearing, tinnitus and circulation in general.


I have zero will power when it comes to giving up smoking and how the heck do you
survive with 4 hours sleep every day without coffee?

I never drank alcohol of any sort performing because I coudn't spare one ounce of energy if I ever hoped to make it through the night.

After playing 5/ 40 minute medleyed sets for so long, now I can barely get through one good 30 minute jam without some discomfort.

I found that playing guitar helps keep my hands from getting too sad
as long as I noodle about every day for at least half an hour.

I guess changing the hand's position exercises different muscles keeping things somewhat fluid. I still don't have the strength I used to. Not even close.

Playing properly monitored also helps so you're not playing as hard when the energy gets going just to hear yourself.

My doctor at John's Hopkins also alerted me to a study he's doing showing that common prescription pain killers are causing auditory nerve damage, so be informed
and be careful.

[henryrobinett]

I'd go Indie's route. Fish oil, MSM, Glucosamine, B vites, B1, B12, B6 and a lot of water. Vite E/A as well.

I've never had a problem, so what do I know? But I think in my case it's more because I've spent so many years working my hands hard on the guitar I've conditioned them. 6 hours a day was not unusual for me practicing hard. It would be now, but I do two hours a day now. It's hard for me to hurt myself.

I'd just suggest that you have to watch your conditioning. Work up to it. If you're only working your hands an hour a day and then suddenly work it 6 or more your'e putting undue and unconditioned stress on the tendons and they have no resistance built up for it.

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by indie

Hey guys...here's a homeopathic approach.
I'm a guitar player, and I started to develop it about 6 years ago. I started taking vitamin B6 and B12 for 2 weeks (WATCH DOSAGE THOUGH) and fish oil capsules.
After the 2 weeks, it was gone. That worked for me, not sure if it will work for you, but give it a shot.
ALSO ------ if you eat sugar, stop. It causes inflammation and makes inflammation worse.
So does coffee...but I have to have that.
Good luck bro!

These are great suggestions... the omega oils are good natural anti-inflamatories. I have problem with my fret hand too. I've worked on proper technique for years and it's a good thing. Using lower gauge strings and having a low action has helped, but when you play for hours at a time, it still comes back. Happy new year to all...

[shanabit]

1. Correct your hand position, wrist should be in a neutral position just like the piano guys ALWAYS. Level with forearm in other words.

2. Wear braces at night(ones with the metal cup in the hand) to avoid the wrist flexion(fetal position) that happens normally as we sleep.

3. Try a contrast bath, start with hot(not scalding water) 2 min in and immediately put your hand into ice cold water(fill it with ICE as well) for 1 min. Repeat this cycle 3 or 4 times and ALWAYS start with the HOT and end with the HOT.

4. Gentle stretching before and after playing. Look up tendon glides.

5. Dont allow extreme Flexing or Extending of the wrist during normal activities such as typing on the internet. Forearm should rest on the desk and NOT hang in the air. Wrist should be neutral again( NO BEND either way).

6. B6, B12 and Omega3 supplements are good advice here.

Take a guess what I do for a living, it aint Music.

Hope this helps

[Ganglion]

Go get a book by John Sarno. Look him up on Amazon.com. I think the book I read was "Healing the body, healing the mind" saved my life. Even just going to amazon.com and reading the user reviews could help you.

Two years ago I almost quit the music industry. I spend all of my time on a computer running pro tools (loads of editing) and playing guitar. I developed tingling in my fingers. After two months of trying everything (doctor, chiropractor, physical therapy, acupuncture) I ended up at a neurologist who told me I may want to think about another career. At my wits end, someone gave me a Sarno book for my birthday. WIthin a weekend I was 100% better.

Without going into it, it may sound like some new age voodoo bullshit, but the guy is a regular doctor and what he writes makes a lot of sense. It changed my life -- its possible you may have something physically wrong with you, but before you go into any surgery or make any big decisions, read one of his books.

Danny

[sysexguy]

Not fun, agree 100% about avoiding surgery. I had a combination of bad computer habits (mousing) and a trainer at the gym who gave me a program more suited for himself. The brace while sleeping was a big help and I've adjusted my training and computer habits so the problem has fortunately disappeared.

It is very important to get information from musician websites and resources because most people is "regular" life, even health professionals may not have a full grasp (pardon the pun) of the problem.

Good luck.....btw, search the archives, I recall getting some great tips here when I was in pain.

Andy

[foldback]

A friend (and amazing guitar player) had CT very bad and it caused him a lot of pain. Finally, he had corrective surgery which ended the pain and left him with two numb fingers on his left hand. The doctor told him he might regain feeling with time, that was several years ago, the fingers are still numb. Fortunately for him he is a college professor rather than a professional musician.

I'd try anything and everything before getting operated on.

[retropete]

Hi Max,

Sorry to hear about your situation... I also have had some problems this year.

In my case it was a double pinched nerve in my back and in my wrist, causing kind of a short circuit and numbness. I had an MRI and an EEG which determined exactly where the nerve problems were. The doctor prescribed Neurontin and a muscle relaxer to begin with, plus recommended taking a B-complex vitamin, which helps repair nerve damage.

He also prescribed physical therapy, which stretched out the muscle groups that were causing the kink. I work out with weights, run and also do Vinyassa, Ashtanga and Kundalini yoga. It was good to get specific exercises that affected the particular area.

So in my case, he felt I didn't need surgery. My advice is... get thee to a doctor ;-)

And if you don't feel confident in that doctor's diagnosis, get a second opinion.

Yoga can definitely help, but in my case, it may have added to the problem. Too many chattarungas! Chances are, there is some physical therapy you can do, plus with the aid of pharmaceuticals to calm down the nerves and let them heal.

best of luck.

P

[Mark Cattano]

Interesting discussion. I've been experiencing some numbness, discomfort, tingling, and sometimes even swelling in the joints in my hands and fingers. I've been playing guitar for twenty five years, and these symptoms have cropped up recently, the past year or two. At first, I just chalked it up to old age, but I'm only 43 and keep myself in great shape, so... I think some of my problems are happening while I sleep (someone mentioned wrist flexion, sleeping in the fetal position) so, it's a real conundrum. I do agree that nutrition plays a part, and anything that you can supplement your diet with that is an anti-inflammatory (i.e. fish oils, wobenzymes) should be helpful. Hope this adds something useful.


Mark Cattano
Magneto Studios
www.heedmusic.com
www.myspace.com/markcattano

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

There's a doctor out here in LA that is famous for helping rock stars out, he's Billy Sheehan and Stun Hamm's doctor. I google searched but could find his info. He runs ads in some of the trades out here in Hollywood.

I just saw Billy Sheehan a couple of weeks ago. Maybe I can get the info.

[not_so_new]

I hate to beat a dead horse but... Max I feel for ya man, I have been there.

http://whyfiles.org/076alt_med/2.html

And this is a GREAT article on RSI as a whole, suggested reading on the subject.

http://www.orthopedictechreview.com/...oct02/pg16.htm

[bluegrasser]

I've had this problem on and off for 10 years. Right now it's unfortunately on,

Years ago I went to a hand specialist in New York that treats musicians. Interesting thing is this problem has A LOT to do with head, neck, and shoulder issues....So anything you can do to address problems in those areas would be to your benefit. There are also simple stretches you can do that MIGHT help a little. Another thing that helps is exercise to get some blood flowing to the hand. I've always found I play guitar best after a run or swim or brisk walk or shoveling snow..

One thing that set off my recent bout is switching guitars. I had been using my blueridge as my go to guitar (it's tuned down a half to whole step....that seems to help me too..) and switched to a martin that was closer to standard tuning. Guess what that Martin sure sounds nice but it set off my problem again....oh well.

It's a sad problem. Dylan has been performing only on piano for sometime and I'm dead certain he's got hand problems from guitar....

GOOD LUCK!!

[Mark Cattano]

Not So New

Thanks for the link- that's a really good article.

Mark Cattano