Current options for budget A/D converters?

[c.cash]

Hello Jules and Co.

I'm as tired of seeing the "best mic under a grand" threads as anyone, but they can be useful for knowing what's out there. I haven't been as up to date with gear lately as I usually am, so I'm out of the loop and looking for some help as to what my options are. Wondering about the current state of cheaper AD converters (hate to say it, no more than $800 or so new or used (probably used)). Did searches but I didn't find much recent and comprehensive.

If you didn't read my thread about the Great River ME-1NV, I'm having a hard time hearing it in all its sonic glory with my home "studio", and I think the AD may be playing a big part, along with acoustics, mic selection, etc. (BTW, the reports are true... Dan Kennedy is a great guy. Offered to take a look at it).

I have a MAC/Digi001 setup, so I'm not looking for any PCI-type /card stuff. Something stand alone. Lightpipe, S/PDIF out, and WC out would be nice too. As far as I know, my options are the Lucid AD9624, Apogee Rosetta (48k used), RME ADI-8 (used).

The Lucid was introduced in 1999. Wondering if technology has made any big improvements with newer converters. It got/gets a lot of praise.

The Rosetta used to get high praise. Is it "old" these days?

The RME was touted as doing great in head to head comparisons with Apogee, but that could've been marketing hype. It seemed to be quite a bargain two or three years ago. It's got 8 ins/outs which is very appealing. This box seems to be the way to go, I dunno.

I've been hearing about the Lynx2 on this board, but it looks really unfriendly for a Mac and Digi001... just want a box.

And then there'll be a Benchmark AD out (eta March) without pre's. That should be interesting. I can wait till then.

Any other options? Didn't Ramsa/Panasonic have one out? Hard to find. If it sounds like I'm fishing for sound opinions too, sure, why not. It's impossible to take a bunch home and return the others when you're buying used. What's the flavor of the month or critic's darling at the moment?

Thanks,
Curt

[Bob Olhsson]

You might check out a 002 rack! That'll upgrade both your A to D and your D to a converters for under a grand. My opinion is that D to A converters are on the whole worse than most common A to D converters so that would be an early upgrade priority for me.

[subspace]

Check out the Kurzweil Rumour. Nice stereo A/D that you could track through via S/PDIF. Oh, and it'll do reverbs at mix time as well. HTH

[Teacher]

i'd throw the lynxtwo in the mix too

check it out

www.lynxtwo.com

[Xestenz]

Alesis HD24 XR -- seriously, Jim Williams of Audio Upgrades had some very nice things to say about these converters (AKM 5393's as the foundation, if I'm not mistaken), and compared them favorably to the RADAR 96 (yeah, I know, but this [I]is[I] what he has said.)

For under 2 grand now, you get 24 sets of them, plus a hard disc recorder thrown in to boot...

[Rmorph]

Hi there,


You say your budget is $800 but I feel it only fair to point out that $1000 is the new sale price of a Mytek Stereo96
I've heard rumours that they go for less in some of the New York retail outlets... closer to your 800 limit - I have a colleague checking it out.

http://www.mytekdigital.com/

That's got to be the best AD on the market in the 1K price range - and I say that with projectiles whizzing over my head from the Apogee crowd in the corner... I have demoed both in Studio and favour the Mytek ( the 8 channel 8x96, but I understand the components are identical, just a stereo channel).

Anyway, I would get one of those and hook it up as wordclock master to the Digi while AD'ing from the Great River.
Voila: Your Digi is now upgraded as well.


I would strongly advise "Go 96K".
You don't actually have to use it, but the key term here (amongst many) is "jitter-free".

Most new generation clocks offer jitter free performance -
Older generation and prosumer digital clocks can't give you that and it DOES make a diifference when you have 16 tracks of bits and pieces trying to sync together.

Cheers.



P.S.
Interestingly I see that RME have come out with a 196K card called the 9632 that offers "jitter free" performance.
RME cards were always great when matched with a better clock, but maybe times have changed?
Anyone demoed the 9632?

[lang_dave]

fwiw

I'd second Bob O's recommendation that you go with the Digi 002 rack. It may not be the "best" sounding, but I believe it would be the least "hassle" and keeps you running with supported Digi gear vs. obsolete Digi gear with add ons or changing DAW software to something else.

ymmv

(hey, two internet geek acronyms in one post. right on.)

dave

[edmann]

The Creamware A-16 Ultra, reclocked externally, gets good reports. 16 channels of AD/DA, ADAT + S/MUX,, you can get them for about $800.00

[c.cash]

Just the kind of info I was looking for, thanks. Didn't know about the Rumour, I'll check it out. Didn't know Mytek was that close to affordable. The HD24/stand-alone boxes idea has always been an interesting take on conversion... back when people would use old Adats to get cheap lightpipe conversion. I forget it's still an option (the stand-alone idea I mean, not a blackface ADAT...).

The Creamware and Lynx type-stuff scrares me away because it's more PCI cards and internal kinda stuff... if I were switching to a new PC instead of Mac and not using PT, then I'd consider it.

The only thing about the 002 Rack that appeals to me are the converters (and it looks much cooler than the playschool 001!). It's a good idea. But I have to wonder how the AD/DA's would compare to a dedicated box that just does AD for the same price. There's a lot of stuff in that 002 box for the money and you'd think things would have to be compromised. I also talked to a Digidesign tech who said PT's performance is a little snappier on an 001 (no firewire). Still, a very good candidate for my needs.

Based on the hype, I would really love to hear the new Benchmark AD, and quickly add the DA.

Now converters are being made jitter free, huh? I didn't know that. I guess that's enough reason to forget about older converters like the Lucid AD9624, Rosetta 48, and the RME ADI-8. Good clock would be a major bonus.

Thanks for your replies! Please add on if you think of anything.

[edmann]

Originally posted by c.cash


The Creamware and Lynx type-stuff scrares me away because it's more PCI cards and internal kinda stuff...

Now converters are being made jitter free, huh? I didn't know that. I guess that's enough reason to forget about older converters like the Lucid AD9624, Rosetta 48, and the RME ADI-8. Good clock would be a major bonus.

The Creamware A16-Ultra is a standalone box - it is a converter only - similar to the Apogee Rosetta 800 but w/16 channels i/o.

While the theory that all new converters are jitter-free is an enticing one to latch on to (I would love it) I don't think it is true. If it were, then what is the performance so many 96k-capable converters improved by using an external clock?

[Bob Olhsson]

The 96k capable chips are better and the 96k capable SPDIF chips are lots better than their 48k counterparts. This, of course, doesn't mean somebody can't screw up the design anyway.

[edmann]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
The 96k capable chips are better and the 96k capable SPDIF chips are lots better than their 48k counterparts. This, of course, doesn't mean somebody can't screw up the design anyway.

Does this mean that a 96k chip's performance at 48k will (theoretically) be better than a 48k chip's performance at 48k?

btw Bob - I loved reading the interview with you - that music was the soundtrack for my youth. Yeah!

[bigbaby987]

don't be afraid of the lynx l22 card. it really is the best card i've ever heard. it's better than rme and just about any other. plus it's working pretty flawless when it comes to playing nice with the mac. finally, if you are familiar with the transport of firewire vs. pci---pci is far superior(just read "mastering audio" by bob katz. i just sold my motu 828 for the lynx card. check it out. you'll love it. by the way, it plays nicely with all apps on your computer(ie. quicktime, itunes, ect.)

[edmann]

Originally posted by bigbaby987
don't be afraid of the lynx l22 card... plus it's working pretty flawless when it comes to playing nice with the mac....

are you using the Lynx card in OS9 or OSX?

[bigbaby987]

osx.2.8...btw, after talking to a few mastering friends of mine they suggest that anything of higher quality would have to come from a dedicated box....one even liked the lynx better than the dac-1...don't know about that but it sounds very good. just about as good as the mytek converters.

[James Lehmann]

As a rather different alternative you might want to consider... the dbx386.

I'm not suggesting this can compete with dedicated A-D units such as the ones suggested above, but in a budget studio this unit gives you a lot of other features that might also fit your needs and save you money elsewhere.

- 2 channels of very respectable Tube mic/line pre-amps (even better if you replace the stock tubes) and almost certainly better than those in the 001
- 2 channels of A-D conversion with dbx' own Type IV soft limiting
- 24/96 operation with various dithering options
- AES/EBU & S/P-DIF out, and Wordclock I/O

When you add all this up this box starts to look pretty good value for less than $800. I find this unit works extremely well in my project studio both as a front-end mic pre and as a stereo tube-warmer on mixdown. Of course, I wouldn't recommend it to someone looking for ultra-clean conversion, but the 386 has a nice sound to my ears and if you like the sound of tubes...

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by edmann
Does this mean that a 96k chip's performance at 48k will (theoretically) be better than a 48k chip's performance at 48k?

The newest chips are far more immune to both RFI garbage and jitter. This makes them more "idiot proof" from a product design standpoint.

[c.cash]

So do you bring the Lynx channels into your recording app with an IAC bus... er something like that? Seems spooky. Any odd timing/latency issues (outside of the norm for converters)?

and thanks James for the input.

[bigbaby987]

So do you bring the Lynx channels into your recording app with an IAC bus... er something like that? Seems spooky. Any odd timing/latency issues (outside of the norm for converters)?

you can select the channels within your app.....ie-in logic you can decide your inputs and outputs right there on the channel. essentially if a d/a is your main issue, then monitoring is what you are looking for. I have asked the question time and time again is there anything gained from recording the output of a great d/a. and every answer i get is no.. does this mean that it's right, but that is the answer i get. now you can bypass your progams summing by using the loopback features and stuff, but i really have to learn this myself because that could be incredible...as far as latencies go, 512 is the lowest buffer it will allow, but it works just fine for me and i mainly use softsynths and softsamplers.

[edmann]

Originally posted by bigbaby987
... I have asked the question time and time again is there anything gained from recording the output of a great d/a. and every answer i get is no..

It may sound worse "on paper", but if (in a given instance) that sound appeals to you more - then the answer would be "yes."

cuz ya neva know.....

[bigbaby987]

So do you bring the Lynx channels into your recording app with an IAC bus... er something like that? Seems spooky. Any odd timing/latency issues (outside of the norm for converters)?

you can select the channels within your app.....ie-in logic you can decide your inputs and outputs right there on the channel. essentially if a d/a is your main issue, then monitoring is what you are looking for. I have asked the question time and time again is there anything gained from recording the output of a great d/a. and every answer i get is no.. does this mean that it's right, but that is the answer i get. now you can bypass your progams summing by using the loopback features and stuff, but i really have to learn this myself because that could be incredible...as far as latencies go, 512 is the lowest buffer it will allow, but it works just fine for me and i mainly use softsynths and softsamplers.

[Tim L]

Old technology... perhaps, but I'm still diggin' my Lucid AD9624 quite a bit!

[Bobalou]

how about newer 44.1/48k converters like what you see in the KSP-8/Rumour/Mangler and jitter problems?

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by Bobalou
how about newer 44.1/48k converters like what you see in the KSP-8/Rumour/Mangler and jitter problems?

Depends on what chips they use. There haven't been new 48k chips in a long time.

[bigbaby987]

tim....i think the lucid converters are fine...just stating my personal preference....I personally think they are as good as the benchmark converters--dac-1 included....

personally i like the mytek converters the best...i'll be picking the d/a up soon myself

[preben]

My MOTU 896 just packed it in on one of the two outputs so I have now joined the converter-people looking for something else - very much including the Lynx L22 or L-two

Is the lowest latency buffer you can run under mac really 512..?? That doesn't seem logical to me.. Also: does anyone have any experience in relation to how the Lynx works in conjunction with the powercore and UAD-1 cards..?

And finally: Having a pair of active monitors I will need to get some sort of attenuation control. I've done a search on this and there are some nice looking units - for instance the nht pvc one. Does anyone know where/if these can be bought in the U.K. anywhere..?? Noone I've spoken to so far seems to know anything...

[James Lehmann]

Originally posted by preben
Having a pair of active monitors I will need to get some sort of attenuation control. I've done a search on this and there are some nice looking units - for instance the nht pvc one. Does anyone know where/if these can be bought in the U.K. anywhere..??

The LA Audio SPX-20 will do the job for you, and a whole bunch more besides - very nice unit at around £200.
(Click on "Mixers & Distribution Amps")

[All4Him]

What about digi-noise from having the converters "in the box" as apposed to stand alone where they are removed from the other electronics?

[echorec]

Originally posted by Tim L
Old technology... perhaps, but I'm still diggin' my Lucid AD9624 quite a bit!

I´m thinking of getting one of these. How´s the clock on that one compared to newer units?

[flexoffset]

Originally posted by preben
Is the lowest latency buffer you can run under mac really 512..?? That doesn't seem logical to me..

Under OS X it is. I have to run 1024 sample buffer in Logic to keep Reaktor and Absynth and Reason and.... happy.

Lynx said improving the buffer size was the very next thing on his list for Lynx in OS X. He said he'd have a clearer timetable by the time NAMM ended.

Right now, the buffer has to be large.