29th December 2006
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#1 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 223
Thread Starter  | My ProTools rig is limited. Any advice for a new DAW?
First, let me say that I'm new here. I've searched the threads but I'm unable to find answers to my specific questions...
Accordingly, I need advice with respect to ditching my ProTools 002 Rig and moving on to a new DAW platform that has fewer limitations.
Here's my line up so there's a baseline for your input and advice:
COMPUTER:
Apple Mac Pro, Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon Processors,
16 Gig of Memory, (3) 750 Gig Serial ata's, and a 30" & 23" Apple Cinema Display
CONVERTERS:
(1) Rosetta 800;
(1) Lynx Aurora 16.
ANALOG:
(2) Vintage Pultec EQP-1A's;
(1) Reissue LA-2A;
(2) Vintage 1176 Blackface;
(1) Portico 5042;
(1) Neve 1073;
(1) Vintech X73;
(1) UA M610;
(1) Blue Robbie;
(1) Avalon VT 737sp;
(1) Thermionic Earlybird 2;
(1) Pendulum OCL-2;
(1) SSL XLogic Series G Stereo Compressor;
(4) SSL X-Rack Mic Amps
(1) Audient Sumo;
PLUG-INS:
UAD -1 Flexi Pak;
Sony Oxford;
McDsp;
Waves Platinum;
Digi factory pack
CONTROL SURFACE:
Mackie with 2 extenders (24)
SPEAKERS:
Coleman Audio M3PH MKII;
Event Studio 8's Active;
Auratones;
NS 10's;
(2) Ultrasone PROline 750's;
Many K270's, etc.
As you can see, the 002 LE Rig limits ALL of the above equipment. The 002 was a test unit to see if I liked the conversion to working ITB, and I do.
I would appreciate candid advice as to Nuendo, CuBase, Logic, etc., and any limitations/problems I may encounter with the above DAWS. Nuendo and its related cards seem to have stellar audio engines and great headroom. Yes?
With the above DAWS and gear, I should achieve equal to or like results (PTHD) and spend my money on converters & outboard gear.
NOTE: I can not see spending $15K to move up to PTHD. Don't get me wrong; I like PT... However, like other people have stated here; digi needs a unit between LE and HD. Yes, I understand the digi business plan, makes sense as a business strategy to force upgrades. However, like many, I believe it's best to just make the jump now and unleash myself once and for all.
FYI: PT compatibility is not an issue - it's very rare for me to move files to an outside studio.
With that, fire away with any advice, comments and assistance you can provide.
Many thanks in advance.
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29th December 2006
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#2 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Aug 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,238
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I personally love Logic. Don't let people tell you it sucks at editing and tracking. It's just different from Pro Tools and a lot of people are uncomfortable with that. I've figured out a way to do everything I want to do. And I want to do a lot of stuff! Of course I think you should keep your LE rig for when you'd like to do transfers.
Also, I'd wait until NAMM to make a decision. The hardware side of HD is looking a bit long in the tooth, and I can't imagine it'll be too long before there's something new. When there is, HD cards will be dirt cheap.
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29th December 2006
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#3 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 223
Thread Starter |
Thanks. Makes sense and NAMM is 2 weeks or so away. So how did you interface Nuendo and your CPU? Are you on a Mac or Win?
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29th December 2006
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#4 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,348
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell  I personally love Logic. Don't let people tell you it sucks at editing and tracking. It's just different from Pro Tools and a lot of people are uncomfortable with that. ...... | I hate to say, but, in my opinion, LOGIC SUCKS AT MIXING AND EDITING as compared to any current version of ProTools.  | |
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29th December 2006
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#5 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 223
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy I hate to say, but, in my opinion, LOGIC SUCKS AT MIXING AND EDITING as compared to any current version of ProTools. | So what DAW would you suggest other than PT?
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29th December 2006
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#6 | | Gear nut
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: in that happy place
Posts: 87
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I think Fairlights Crystal Core CC-1 would suite you. Hey! I just sold ALL my shit For this monsterthumbsup thumbsup 
By using the CC-1, you can piggy back all the other systems. No more non compliance.
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29th December 2006
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#7 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Nov 2002 Location: Hollywood
Posts: 3,633
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I can't imagine life without ProTools at this juncture. We're too dependant on it's power/editing and mixing capabilities.
We've gone totally overboard with our rig. Out of control.
Once you get going it's easy to max it out. Below is a testament to this sentiment.
daw system
Digidesign ProTools HD6 Accel
(1) Digidesign 192 I/O
(1) Apogee 16X A/D Converter w/XHD Card
(1) Apogee 16X D/A Converter w/XHD Card
Apogee Big Ben Word Clock
Magma 7-Slot/64 bit Chassis
Magma 4-Slot/32 bit Chassis w/4x Universal Audio Cards
I suppose it really depends upon what your clients require and what they are willing to spend for your services.
If you can afford to stay in the ProTools game, I'd say take the risk. Otherwise, I guess Nuendo may be your best bet.
However, if you have intentions of MITB, then there is nothing else that touches ProTools. Nothing.
The bigger our PT rig expands the more work we receive. It's an investment that eventually pays for itself.
Remember that ProTools has a public and professional appeal. But, if your clients are willing to work with you regardless of your system, then go for what works for you. Although, you are currently an LE user, so you already have a leg-up on the competition.
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29th December 2006
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#8 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Apr 2003 Location: Belgium
Posts: 1,328
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I work with Cubase (which is the same as nuendo, but let's not get a flame war going on that in this thread) and the main thing I love about it vs. other DAWs is *complete* PDC... I had to work with Logic a while and record as a bassist regularly on LE systems and I really hate doing all the math when inserting a plugin. To me (as a musician turned AE) it completely kills creativity and flow.
That being said there is no better/worse daw only different flavors 
Herwig
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29th December 2006
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#9 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Sep 2005 Location: Texas
Posts: 1,955
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I used protools for 6 years or so... And after a ton of crashes with my mac and hd3, I decided to move on to bigger and better things.
I tried to get into logic but it seemed to ass backwards to me... I really didn't like it, and all I use it for is basically for editing and record/play. I don't do any mixing in it. But I didn't like it.
I finally plunged into nuendo. I got away from macs for a while and built a custom PC. The look and feel of nuendo definately is similar to pro tools... Moreso than digital performer, logic, ableton, or cool edit.
You can dictate your key commands, so I made mine with protools in mind.
It took me a week or 2 to get used to the new functions and names for everything. There were some slight annoyances at first, but once I read the manual, it cleared everything up.. There was just some wierdness with auto input/input only, arming tracks, etc... But nuendo is very tweakable and more intuitive than pro tools in my opinion.
Routing is very very easy. Editing is nice. It takes a while to get used to, but you will soon see that the editing capabilities of nuendo are pretty stellar.
They have a thing called lanes that are similar to playlists in protools... You can record multiple takes and then mute/unmute parts of each take and it will highlight the parts you are using... So say you have 5 nice vocal takes, you can seamlessly move through parts you like in each take and leave it be or bounce it to one take. It's my favorite feature.
Crossfades are a bit more complicated and hard to get used to, but they are much more tweakable after your figure them out.
I would go for a lynx aes or m-audio lightbridge for your interface...But definately demo nuendo
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29th December 2006
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#10 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Sep 2005 Location: Texas
Posts: 1,955
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as far as power and protools go.. I feel its a moot point. I have the same power in my quad 3.0ghz pc.
I can do amzing thigs like 100 tracks at 192khz with plugs. No need for anything else
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29th December 2006
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#11 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,990
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The steep learning curve of Logic might suit a tech-head, but for making music I like Motu Digital Performer. You can assign whatever key commands you want, and, for me, at least, it runs crash-free. I love the graphic editing. Time stretch is on screen, so you can stretch or compress a soundbite to match an adjacent track - great for lining up vocal harmonies when one singer drops out before the other one does. I assume PT does this too, but some DAW's don't. Audio transpose also works great. I've transposed a bass note down a fifth to accomodate a new ending, and messed with vocals the same way.
__________________
"You're either with a native DAW, or you're with the terrorists." G.W. Busch Lite
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29th December 2006
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#12 | | Gear maniac
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 278
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There hasn't been a Nuendo feature mentioned here that doesn't also exist in Cubase for less money. They have the EXACT SAME audio engine. Cubase is their flagship audio app. Nuendo is more suited to audio for films. That's really the only reason to get Nuendo over Cubase.
Lots of people jumped on Nuendo figuring that since it was more expensive, it would be more capable. If you primarily work with audio and/or midi, that's just not true.
I'll repeat.... if you don't work in film, and you purchased Nuendo over Cubase, you are a victim of hype and wasted your money.
I've been using Cubase for years and years... so, obviously, it's what I'm most comfortable with... combined with an RME card or a couple of Lynx cards, and the gear that you already have, Cubase would provide you with an incredibly badass system.
I also use DP5. And, though I like it for tracking and editing, I'm really just not comfortable with doing ITB mixes with it. I'm just much better at mixing with Cubase. Hell, I'm much better (and faster) at doing anything with Cubase. But, I do some work in DP5 because it's what another local studio uses.
I've also sat in on tracking, editing and mixing sessions with several programs (including Pro Tools). None of them really did anything that Cubase can't. And, they all just did things a little different.
I'd be careful with Nuendo. I think that they thought it would REPLACE Cubase when they first rolled it out. But, to compete with PT, they jacked the price up too high. Some people bought it, some didn't. But, it looks like with the new Cubase 4, they're likely to push Cubase as their main audio DAW and will probably market Nuendo more to people who work in film post.
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29th December 2006
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#13 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Oct 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA.
Posts: 3,738
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First of all, you are so close to NAMM, I wouldn't change anything in your setup yet.
Secondly, what type of work do you do?
More midi than audio? More audio than midi? More mixing then tracking?
To me, what you do plays a huge part in what DAW platform you use.
__________________
Hybrid mixing is the present for some and the future for us all! R&B Master Mixing Series II
Director of Artist Endorsements for A Designs Audio and Pete's Place
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29th December 2006
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#14 | | Gear nut
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 106
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The software side has been covered here to a large extent but what about hardware?
A writer that I know has been using Apogee's Symphony and the performance is sick. He has a really good drummer track parts for him and according to this guy here is NO discernable latency. I only bring up the drummer b/c they, and singers, might be more sensitive to latency.
Any, the point is, you already have a mac pro and a rosetta so you are like $1k away from having symphony. It is pretty amazing.
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29th December 2006
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#15 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 223
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd First of all, you are so close to NAMM, I wouldn't change anything in your setup yet.
Secondly, what type of work do you do?
More midi than audio? More audio than midi? More mixing then tracking?
To me, what you do plays a huge part in what DAW platform you use. | I'm a professional musician with several publishing deals. Accordingly, the studio is for writing and demos for the publishers, artists, & some for TV and film placement.
However, I'm a Tone Hound and if it doesn't sound like a record, it bothers me (as I know what it SHOULD sound like). Sometimes, I'm too picky. But these days, the more it sounds like it's "radio ready" on the first listen, the better your chance of placement.
Also, very guitar heavy (both acoustics & electrics, tube amps, etc), very little midi, usually use live drums or in some cases, Digi Strike or Drums On Demand loops. Never tired BFD.
I've been looking through the replies and I appreciate the pearls of wisdom to date. I like the idea of Symphony as recently suggested and I'll take a look at their site in a few minutes - CuBase 4 as well.
However, after reading the replies, it drives home an important question: Which core card do you believe is best if NOT using PT? That's the first step, then the software of choice.
Two last questions: (1) Any ideas on a work-around to retain PT as the software but get at least 16 outs and use the Apogge (or Lynx) exclusively for A/D - D/A?
(2) Any additional comments on the Fairlight card?
Thanks!
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29th December 2006
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#16 | | Gear nut
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 106
| Quote: |
Any ideas on a work-around to retain PT as the software but get at least 16 outs and use the Apogge (or Lynx) exclusively for A/D - D/A?
| PT M-Powered, and M-Audio Profire Lightbridge will give you access to 32 dig inputs and outputs. 18 channels of i/o available using M-Powered PT. Very cool option.
The caveat is that the lowest buffer setting is 128, plus the fact that it is firewire make the latency much higher than using a symphony pci card.
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29th December 2006
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#17 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 223
Thread Starter |
Thanks for all of the comments - much appreciated...
After looking around the web today and reading the above replies, how do you like this as an alternative to PTLE?
1. Aurora Lynx 16 (seems like my best A/D - D/A option - I'll sell the Rosetta and Lynx 8 or I guess add another 8);
2. Keep the Digi 002R for conversion - just in case;
3. Now, the Software. Based on my info to date, it seems like CuBase, Nuendo or MOTU are the best alternatives for me; OR
4. Just say screw it, wait for NAMM and see what kind of deal I can get on an HD Rig - post show?
What say you?
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29th December 2006
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#18 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Nov 2004 Location: Nashville
Posts: 4,308
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Everybody likes what they're used to. I don't think you'll get any real help on this.
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29th December 2006
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#19 | | Gear maniac
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 278
| Quote:
Originally Posted by popmann Everybody likes what they're used to. I don't think you'll get any real help on this. | very true. but, even though I don't use all of this gear, I'd say you'll be pretty happy with any of these combinations:
Logic with Symphony
Cubase (or Nuendo if you're into film) with RME hardware
DP with MOTU hardware
they'll all accomplish the same tasks. they're all waaay more capable than PTLE. and they're all expandable.
pick one. then spend years getting used to it.
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30th December 2006
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#20 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Oct 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA.
Posts: 3,738
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If you are mainly doing audio, I would try and get into a PT HD.
There is a world of difference between PT LE and PT HD.
As for the other DAW's, IMO:
If you are doing heavy editing, I wouldn't go with Logic.
Coming from Pro Tools LE and going to Logic for audio editing, might drive you crazy.
DP is cool, editing is better than Logic, but not what Pro Tools is.
Here are a couple more things to consider.
Is there anybody near you where you can hear the other systems you are considering?
Do you need compatibility with anyone else?
And ultimately... I would still just wait for NAMM.
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30th December 2006
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#21 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Sep 2006 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Posts: 4,149
| Quote:
Originally Posted by picksail
However, if you have intentions of MITB, then there is nothing else that touches ProTools. Nothing.
| tutt
i have to say i completely disagree with you on this. sonar 6 kicks pt 's butt on MITB.... (say 64bit floating point mixing)
what about tdm plugins being limited to 24bit fixed? don't you think it makes a difference?
sorry, i know you must be happy with what you got and you should, but to say nothing else touches it is just plain incorrect... it gave me a big laugh...
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30th December 2006
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#22 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Nov 2002 Location: Hollywood
Posts: 3,633
| Quote:
Originally Posted by taturana tutt
i have to say i completely disagree with you on this. sonar 6 kicks pt 's butt on MITB.... (say 64bit floating point mixing)
what about tdm plugins being limited to 24bit fixed? don't you think it makes a difference?
sorry, i know you must be happy with what you got and you should, but to say nothing else touches it is just plain incorrect... it gave me a big laugh... | Fair enough.
I'm happy that you were amused.
No offense, but I have seen Sonar in action. While I think it's probably a great home studio set-up, it is light years from ProTools.
I have a friend who is using it and I think for what he's doing, it's a great program.
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30th December 2006
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#23 | | Gear interested
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Stuck in California
Posts: 26
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Logic and Nuendo are good and maybe cubase if you are not doing video work.
I read something that Cubase 4 still has some bugs due to new VST3 though.
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30th December 2006
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#24 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 223
Thread Starter |
Well, thanks everyone. I feel like my wife going to the store to pick out wallpaper. If there are 2 or 3 choices, she knows EXACTLY want she wants. It there's 10 choices plus, and they're all pretty close, we come home with nothing. Really.
After all of the replies, I'm looking at many "patterns" and feel this plan makes the most sense:
To limit my wallpaper choices, I think I'll audition DP and CuBase 4 with the Lynx 16 (back in the day, I was a MOTU fan - Mac 2, 500k of ram, I'm dating myself here... Hell, I remember Photoshop 1.1 running on that machine), but I'm off point.
What sucks is I love PT. My buddy is on PTHD. He believes I have NO choice. He also owns an SSL G. But after the investment in my above audio gear over the years, I guess PTHD is the way to go to complete the studio? I'm afraid that if I don't go PTHD, I'll kick myself. Man, I feel forced!
However, to "validate" my PTHD investment, I will audition DP and CuBase 4. I know of a dealer close by that would love to sell me any choice of gear and has always been great about letting me take stuff to back to my studio to try out. I believe he has a MOTU and a Nuendo/Cubase demo set up in the sound room.
So, with all of that, I have one remaining question: IF I go PTHD, what's the opinion on converters?
1. Apogge;
2. Lynx;
3. PT 192 I/O;
Should I also go with a Big Ben?
Let me know!
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30th December 2006
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#25 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Nov 2002 Location: Hollywood
Posts: 3,633
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Obsessed Well, thanks everyone. I feel like my wife going to the store to pick out wallpaper. If there are 2 or 3 choices, she knows EXACTLY want she wants. It there's 10 choices plus, and they're all pretty close, we come home with nothing. Really.
After all of the replies, I'm looking at many "patterns" and feel this plan makes the most sense:
To limit my wallpaper choices, I think I'll audition DP and CuBase 4 with the Lynx 16 (back in the day, I was a MOTU fan - Mac 2, 500k of ram, I'm dating myself here... Hell, I remember Photoshop 1.1 running on that machine), but I'm off point.
What sucks is I love PT. My buddy is on PTHD. He believes I have NO choice. He also owns an SSL G. But after the investment in my above audio gear over the years, I guess PTHD is the way to go to complete the studio? I'm afraid that if I don't go PTHD, I'll kick myself. Man, I feel forced!
However, to "validate" my PTHD investment, I will audition DP and CuBase 4. I know of a dealer close by that would love to sell me any choice of gear and has always been great about letting me take stuff to back to my studio to try out. I believe he has a MOTU and a Nuendo/Cubase demo set up in the sound room.
So, with all of that, I have one remaining question: IF I go PTHD, what's the opinion on converters?
1. Apogge;
2. Lynx;
3. PT 192 I/O;
Should I also go with a Big Ben?
Let me know! | See that's the clincher: You're already very familiar with ProTools. You've just outgrown your current set-up. It's perfectly validated.
We have both the 192 and the Apogee 16x.
If you were to go with the Apogee 16x A/D/D/A w/X-HD cards you'd be set. With the X-HD cards you can interface directly with your PT HD cards. Plus, the Big Ben clock is integrated into the A/D.
Good luck!!!
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30th December 2006
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#26 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 223
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by picksail See that's the clincher: You're already very familiar with ProTools. You've just outgrown your current set-up. It's perfectly validated.
We have both the 192 and the Apogee 16x.
If you were to go with the Apogee 16x A/D/D/A w/X-HD cards you'd be set. With the X-HD cards you can interface directly with your PT HD cards. Plus, the Big Ben clock is integrated into the A/D.
Good luck!!! | Thanks for helping me narrow down my "wallpaper choices". When I posted, I thought I would go with PTHD - but really hoped there would be an alternative. Kinda like Santa. Nice concept - not reality.
By reading the replies, I've gained more perspective & distance from my situation ( way too close). It makes me think: If I had to answer, what would I suggest? PTHD. See what I mean?
I'll be at the dealer in the am doing tests so there's no remorse... I'll report back once I know where I'm headed (or if I need more advice on "wallpaper patterns").
Thanks to all!
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30th December 2006
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#27 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jun 2002 Location: LA, USA | Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Obsessed Thanks for helping me narrow down my "wallpaper choices". When I posted, I thought I would go with PTHD - but really hoped there would be an alternative. Kinda like Santa. Nice concept - not reality.
By reading the replies, I've gained more perspective & distance from my situation ( way too close). It makes me think: If I had to answer, what would I suggest? PTHD. See what I mean?
I'll be at the dealer in the am doing tests so there's no remorse... I'll report back once I know where I'm headed (or if I need more advice on "wallpaper patterns").
Thanks to all! | To save ypurself the anguish, go pick up a presonus interface. It comes with Cubase LE.
It will at least give you an idea about the program.
If you don't like it, don't use it. And if you decide to move to PTHD anyway, I'm sure you could return the interface as well.
BTW, the Firebox is less than $300,-.
But to think that you HAVE to have an HD system to do Pro work is completely outdated.
It's definitley not necessary anymore.
And if you're not doing filmwork, Cubase is fine.
And as per usual, you'll find that spending $15k, won't get you very far. You'll be spending more than that by the time you're done.
Tony, how much would you say he'll spend on a PTHD system that will give him all the power he'll need?
AFAIK, the minimum will be an HD3, but from what I've heard you'll want more.
You'll need an expansion chassis if you want to keep using your UAD-1 card.
You'll need at least one interface.
All of that won't be close to 15k.
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30th December 2006
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#28 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Oct 2002 Location: Control Room
Posts: 1,956
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Obsessed I'll be at the dealer in the am doing tests so there's no remorse... I'll report back once I know where I'm headed (or if I need more advice on "wallpaper patterns"). | Like everyone said, wait for NAMM...there is possibly a Digi 003 on the horizon.
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30th December 2006
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#29 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 223
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman
AFAIK, the minimum will be an HD3, but from what I've heard you'll want more.
You'll need an expansion chassis if you want to keep using your UAD-1 card.
You'll need at least one interface.
All of that won't be close to 15k.
| Actually, I received a written quote this morning from my dealer:
(1) AD-16X
(1) DA-16X
(1) PT HD Core Pro Tools|HD 3
X-Series HD cards for PTHD Interface
DSub Connectors ( In & Out )
Another SUMO for summing OTB
Magma for UAD card
$14,295 plus tax
All brand new.
Not too bad for all of that, huh? I thought it would be closer to $20k.
Now what do you think?
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30th December 2006
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#30 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jun 2002 Location: LA, USA | Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Obsessed Actually, I received a written quote this morning from my dealer:
(1) AD-16X
(1) DA-16X
(1) PT HD Core Pro Tools|HD 3
X-Series HD cards for PTHD Interface
DSub Connectors ( In & Out )
Another SUMO for summing OTB
Magma for UAD card
$14,295 plus tax
All brand new.
Not too bad for all of that, huh? I thought it would be closer to $20k.
Now what do you think? |
Honestly, spending $15k if I didn't have to is preffered.
You have computers that are powerfull enough to provide you with enough plug-in action.
IMO the $15k won't really add anything to what you've got right now.
Your biggest problem is lack of I/O and track count.
All of which you could get for a couple of grand.
Also, did you add in the price of upgarding your plug-ins to TDM versions?
Kinbda pointless to upgrade to TDM HD if you're not going to get the plug-ins.
Another user here just posted that he bought an HD1, and with native processing has the equivalant of an HD7 or HD8.
So basically, his computer alone gives him way more power than his HD "upgrade".
You've been running a native system now, and the problem is obvious, that it's the software and I/O limitations that are holding you back.
But, it's your money.
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