Got the wrong guitar! Suggestions on a new acoustic?

[jweisbin]

Originally Posted by SirEarl

So a few weeks ago I bought a Taylor 210e... Seems like the lows waaaay outweigh the highs. I plan on exchanging it when I return from holiday vacation. My budget is $1000-1600.

Are you using the onboard electronics or a mic? I have a Taylor 614ce and a 912, both are fantastic for recording with a mic or multiple mic's, because the tone is very balanced. I find some guitars, like Martins, to be very bass heavy, which is good for playing live but not so good for recording.

The 612ce has the Neve mic system in it and can record OK, but doesn't sound anywhere near as good as a good mic. The 912 has the older piezo system and I would never use that for anything. I think the "e" models use a piezo under the saddle, whereas the "ce" models use the Neve designed system with contact mic's. Either way, they are really for gigging, not for recording. Get a good mic or pair of mic's to record with.

Also, Taylors come from the factory with light gauge strings. If you are serious about your tone get it set up with medium gauge strings or "bluegrass" gauge strings, which is what I use.

[rogerbrain]

I wish I could just 'point' to a guitar that sounds good...but you have to try them. play barred chords up and down the neck, play open string chords and some notes fingered above the 7th fret and see if they balance... try to get in a space that is 'like' your environment ... I have a friend that has a smaller body (folks size?) koa tayor that sounds pretty good....I have a seagull artist that sound fine miked... (in general I think the seagull are pretty lame ) .... but there really aren't many rules in what will and won't sound good ...ya gotta play em... good you can take it back and swap!!! if you can try some of the Larravee's they do make some good ones ... if you can deal with no cutaway the Martin D-18 'can' be good ... but they are not all good by any means.

you mentioned the talkamie .. they usually have a thicker harder finish that really tightens things up (not familiar with the one you noted tho)

good luck

[houndog328]

Me thinks the dreadnought body is the problem. Your gonna get that boom in most cases. I'm not familiar with Junior Kimbrough but I just had a quick listen to some stuff. I think that a smaller body guitar would work better, Martin 000 or 00. Have a listen to Big Bill Broonzy stuff and Clapton's fingerpicking on the Unplugged album for instance, all 000.

The older Gibson LG-2's (and some LG-1's) are nice for that too, more like the Martin 00 size tho but nice and open.

[kneelie]

Originally Posted by SirEarl

Seems like the lows waaaay outweigh the highs.

I'm pretty partial to ... mahogany... sounds.

That contradicts, mahogany is very warm sounding. Koa would be great but may be out of your price range. Maple may be a good choice. Walnut could offer something too.

The 210e has a laminate body which is less than ideal.

The Dreadnought is on the smaller side which in theory should give plenty of top end. Taylor calls it balanced. There is not really much smaller maybe try a parlor size.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by kneelie

That contradicts, mahogany is very warm sounding. Koa would be great but may be out of your price range. Maple may be a good choice. Walnut could offer something too.

The 210e has a laminate body which is less than ideal.

The Dreadnought is on the smaller side which in theory should give plenty of top end. Taylor calls it balanced. There is not really much smaller maybe try a parlor size.

There is nothing "smaller" about a dreadnought, unless you are saying that the Taylor dreadnought is smaller than most dreadnoughts. Dreadnoughts typically excel at cannon like bass... that is likely the problem right there... good recording guitars are typically chosen for being lighter in the bass for exactly the OP's experience... I second the 000, 00, or even 0 style recommendation... Larivee's are nice but no better than a Taylor IMHO... just go for a non-dreadnought style of Taylor and you'll be fine...

[brianellefson]

Always felt like the Taylors in general are light in the bass department (especially compared to Martins and Gibsons).

Did you experiment with micing it up? I had a 310 and used an SDC usually pointed at the 12th fret. Almost all acoustics will sound boomy if not mic'ed right. Not trying to insult you, just bringing up this other aspect in case you haven't considered it. I'd try experimenting with mic placement.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by brianellefson

Always felt like the Taylors in general are light in the bass department (especially compared to Martins and Gibsons).

Did you experiment with micing it up? I had a 310 and used an SDC usually pointed at the 12th fret. Almost all acoustics will sound boomy if not mic'ed right. Not trying to insult you, just bringing up this other aspect in case you haven't considered it. I'd try experimenting with mic placement.

I also have found Taylors to lean towards bright and crytaline... but dreadnoughts will be dreadnoughts...

and micing will be micing...

[TurboJets]

Martin 000 and 00's are awesome, the 15's and 16's. Even the Mahogany topped 0015 is a super nice guitar. I played a Taylor once with a cedar top (I love cedar like you) and thought I was going to love it, but was very disappointed.

The OM models are great, especially for recording. My main acoustic is the OM16GT but since it's a smaller body it doesn't project quite as much as a 00 or 000.

All of them handle open tunings really well though.

Another consideration, although much less expensive are Seagull guitars. The cherry sides and back are surprisingly warm and smooth. High quality tops and great bracing style make Seagull a great bargain.

[heimaufnahme]

Try the Guild D-140. It's a fantastic guitar with bell-like highs and tight, not boomy lows. It's all solid as well.

[SirEarl]

I haven't tried using the onboard electronics on it yet. I like the idea of a smaller body. Definitely gonna have to look into these suggestions. My primary is drums, so I'm not very knowledgable about guitars. Basically, I know enough to maintain and repair my electric guitars. I know having thicker strings will give me a better tone and sustain, but I'm the type that likes to wear strings out until they're super old and almost dead. (Not gonna lie, I kind of enjoy that sound. Just a little bit). I thought the dreadnought mixed with Taylor's typical shimmer would kind of balance itself out, but I guess not.

I have yet to try a mixed stereo pair. So far, I've tried a stereo pair of MC930s in various placements, SM57 pair in various placements, and then I tried a RE20 and a TM-1 both at the 12th fret and a little bit past the bridge(mono tracks, not stereo). That's almost my entire mic locker. How do you guys like micing your acoustics? I've only tried a spaced pair(12th fret and just past the bridge), XY, and ORTF.

Thanks for all the suggestions and info. And seeing as how it is 3am over here...Merry Christmas!!!

[Piedpiper]

well, if you're looking for less boom, aside from the guitar itself, and mic placement, most of your mics are big bottomed and mellow topped. As usual, you gotta choose your tools for your context of what you want. The MC930 is likely your best bet here but there are brighter leaner SDCs if you're looking for less bottom and more cut. Though, if the 930 isn't giving you want you want, I would say the source and/or placement are more the culprit. Nearer the bridge will definitely help clean it up if that's what you're after. And dead strings doesn't ever help a recording IME. And heavier strings does not give you "better" tone, they give you different tone... light gage may well server your needs better. And if you are using a pick, the gage of pick will have a huge effect on the sound. Heavier gives you more body and less highs in the attack, and vice versa.

[Hot Vibrato]

I agree with Houndog. IME, dreadnaughts sound sort of "woofy" when you record them. Some are really tricky to get a good recorded sound from, and others are just impossible. An OM sized guitar would be much more mic friendly.

[Musiclab]

I agree with pied piper, Taylor's tend to be bright, if your guitar sounds bright when you play it you either have the wrong mic or you put it in the wrong place. I also agree that in general 000's record much better, but there are always exceptions, I have a client with an old Martin D25 that records great. But in general dreadnoughts are better for hard strumming whereas I find that 000 will work for strumming fine and are much better than dreads at arpeggio/ broken chord style playing. And if you play finger style find a small body really bright guitar

[TurboJets]

I think there's definitely something to be desired for dreaddy's that have aged and mellow a bit. Older Guild's, some of the Japanese made Yammy's, aged Martin dread's, Yari's, and some small shop crafted acoustics.

As far as using 2 mics, personally I use XY config, stacked to emulate a Blumlein style. But the pair are SDC and LDC combo. 012 + 4033. The 012 for the high's and 4033 for the lows. They blend so nicely.

[Arichlsss]

The 210's that I've played and heard played sound pretty bad.

I would make sure your room sounds bright (reflective floor is a big deal for me), too much carpet makes them sound dull if you have absorptive walls.

Use in ears to adjust mic placement so you can hear the exactly what your placement is doing.

I would use the beyers one at 12-15th fret angle toward hole for more bass and away for less. If you want stereo I've had good luck with the other mic over the stumming shoulder or place them more like a piano stereo spread with both mics 12-15 fret one pointed up at 45 degrees and one pointed down at a 45, the latter is a little more natural,

Some of my favorite recordings are single mic 121 thru gtq with some high shelf EQ on my D35 witch has huge low end. The pattern on the ribbon makes it easy to control bass and picks up the room nicely as well.

Good luck

[jweisbin]

I just looked up the spec on the 210 and I have to agree, laminate construction is questionable. I'm surprised that Taylor would make a laminate body, but they are trying to be the guitar company for every price range, apparently. I bought my 912 about 1992 and paid $2300 new (it had a small flaw in the finish which reduced the price a bit). When I first played it in the store (Sam Ash in NYC I think), I thought it sounded very good, but I wasn't convinced. Then I asked the salesman if he would put medium strings on it and he said he'd be happy to. I was blown away. It is still one of the best, if not the best, guitar I have ever played and I would never part with it. The only change I made was to substitute a real bone saddle. In my opinion the "tusk" saddles that come standard on most new guitars just don't cut it. Bone will open up your tone like you can't believe.

Around 2005 I bought a 614. I needed a second guitar and went for something with a different character than the 912. The 614 is bigger and has maple sides and back instead of rosewood. I love that guitar almost as much as the 912. I paid $2800 for the 614. When I look at the prices of these instruments now, I would have to take out a second mortgage to afford them. But when you own a guitar that sounds and plays really great, it is something you want to pick up and play every day, and it is well worth the expense.

Anyway, I am fortunate to work in a studio which has a matched pair of Gefell condensers and a pair of Neumann KM84's, which are both great pairs for me. But I have also gotten perfectly good results with an SM-57 resting on a pillow when I had to, and used judicious EQ tweaking.

BTW I play finger style with a thumb pick and finger nails.
https://soundcloud.com/james-weisbin/sets/gm-jw-1

[John Eppstein]

A couple of things-

1.) Try a different string set. If the guitar is too bright, go one gauge heavier. Also, different alloys sound different.

2.) when recording, try using a GOOD condenser or ribbon about 1-1/2 feet away from the instrument. Having the mic too close often yields an unbalanced, unnatural sound. Moving the mic away a bit allows it to pick up more of the natural balance of the instrument. It also avoids the problem of boominess or tubbiness caused by proximity effect.

3.) If you're not using a good mic that could easily be the problem - a lot of mics these days have a hyped top and and/or an upper midrange presence boost.

What kind of mic have you been using?

[drbob1]

IF your budget is $1000-1600, there are some VERY nice guitars, including much better Taylors than the 210 available. First off, buy used. Most acoustics, unless abused, sound better after a year or two so you'll know what it's going to sound like. Second, play everything you know on it. Third, try and find a place in the shop that sounds like your studio to try it out it. I can't count the times I've played something in the shop that sounded one way and was completely different at home! 4th, find out what your heros are playing and maybe start there? A 000 body does sound like it'd be perfect for what you want. And yeah, you should be able to find a 000-16 or 000-18 used for your target price!

[Piedpiper]

martin 000 in Acoustic | eBay

[PhilDW]

Originally Posted by kneelie

That contradicts, mahogany is very warm sounding. Koa would be great but may be out of your price range. Maple may be a good choice. Walnut could offer something too.

<snip>

I don't believe mahogany is particularly warm on acoustics. From Martin's web site tonewood descriptions, mahogany is:

"Much lighter in weight than rosewood, koa or maple. Yields a surprisingly strong, loud sound with an emphasis on clear, bright airy trebles."

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by PhilDW

I don't believe mahogany is particularly warm on acoustics. From Martin's web site tonewood descriptions, mahogany is:

"Much lighter in weight than rosewood, koa or maple. Yields a surprisingly strong, loud sound with an emphasis on clear, bright airy trebles."

It's all subjective, but between rosewood and mahogany (probably the most common back and side woods for acoustic guitars), mahogany is arguably "warmer". Rosewood tends to be more punchy with more pronounced highs and lows, whereas mahogany seems to have more mid-range presence - call it what you will, but I'd say mahogany's "warmer".

Despite the fact that rosewood guitars are typically more expensive, many great players prefer mahogany instruments. Rosewood is arguably prettier to look at. Doc Watson always favored mahogany guitars - I suppose asthetics were irrelevant to him.

[Tinderwet]

When it comes to recording acoustic guitars, mic placement is the single most important aspect (besides the playing and the tune of course).
Soundhole is the main source of bass, the further you go from it, the least amount of lows you get, bit with more high mids (especially near the bridge) and treble.
Going away from the guitar cuts both the bass and the treble.
The sparkle of the sound comes from the metallic "zhing" of the strings themselves; you can find it going towards the neck/headstock.

Don't give up on the guitar if you otherwise like its sound; it can be captured nicely with a little bit of tinkering.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by PhilDW

I don't believe mahogany is particularly warm on acoustics. From Martin's web site tonewood descriptions, mahogany is:

"Much lighter in weight than rosewood, koa or maple. Yields a surprisingly strong, loud sound with an emphasis on clear, bright airy trebles."

Descriptions are always subjective. The thing I like about mahogany is the rich mids without the boom of rosewood or the snap of maple. It sounds 'warm' to me.

[euphoria89]

Yes to me, mahog is a warmer tone all round. I've got a D40 Guild and its got a whole load more mid presence than my Martin or Taylor (rosewoods). I love mahog for strumming because it fills in more of the spectrum on more sparse arrangements. Rosewood is more detailed and has extra bottom usually. I find the rosewoods harder to record in general. The difference between a D28 and D18 can be quite significant and they are (not including the newer 2012 model) very similarly spec'd.

I think the OP needs to take it back and find a guitar that truly speaks to him. Ideally, go when you havent got the cash to buy anything. That way you wont walk out of the shop with a guitar that you may or may not be completely happy with. I've done it before and its a crappy way to be.

My recommendation for a low cost but great sounding guitar in this range is the Martin D16GT (or rosewood RGT). Its all solid wood but without the extra bling of a D28. Has a great woody sound of a classic Martin, and records very well. There are a few bits on Youtube of the guitar anyway. See if your store has one. They are not stupidly expensive.

[kennybro]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

Martin 000 and 00's are awesome, the 15's and 16's. Even the Mahogany topped 0015 is a super nice guitar. I played a Taylor once with a cedar top (I love cedar like you) and thought I was going to love it, but was very disappointed.

Agreed. I love the OO and OOO bodies for recording. A naturally balanced bass. Dreadnaughts can be very nice in an acoustic centered song like a James Taylor thing where you want that big, full range feel.

But within an arrangement, the smaller Martin bodies usually win for me. Dreads can fit in, but they require a more micing and mixing attention. The O's just seem to have a way of contributing the vibe without adding unnecessary frequencies.

[Grrrip]

I just got a Taylor 210e, love it. Made a quick recording clams and all.

MP3 Player SoundClick

[tribedescribe]

You mentioned cedar and mahogany, well Takamine makes a amazing series called the natural series. These guitar feature very light finishing which produce a very open and natural tone that seem to rival custom made guitars.

They keep changing the name but the current model is called the Etn10c. It features a solid ceder tope and solid mahogany back. other older used models are the etn10c and en10c. I have owned both of the older models and they sound fantastic.

[Tinderwet]

Originally Posted by Grrrip

I just got a Taylor 210e, love it. Made a quick recording clams and all.

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Sounds like piezo to me.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by Grrrip

I just got a Taylor 210e, love it. Made a quick recording clams and all.

MP3 Player SoundClick

Yep...

Sounds like a Taylor alright.