Why does the F# on my bass sound out of tune?

[abechap024]

I've noticed that too on different instruments. I would think room modes would be the first suspect. If the room is resonating slightly out of tune with f# your going to get some weirdness. It doesn't explain that it still sounds out of tune in cans.

What else is going on in the low end? If its a tune with say a kick drum, is the kick drum tuned? It could be out of tune making the bass sound out.

[davet]

You don't really say if you are recording direct or with an amp. This sounds like a room problem.

What happens when you play the bass elsewhere, like in a different room?

DaveT

[godotzilla]

It's the curse of the F#!

I notice it all the time on the high-E of my guitars, especially when fretting an open D chord. Everything else can be in lock-step tune, intonated to a T--then that high third gets fretted, and it just sounds wonky.

[hymenoptera]

This might be a good thing. If you couldn't hear this then there might be a problem. Rarely will you find an instrument that sounds good in every key.
Equal temperament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[vernier]

Maybe holding the string down too hard? . .
.
.

[kennybro]

I've had this happen to me with certain situations on the gig and in the studio. It's a bear when you're trying to sing at a gig.

The B note on the low E of my old Tele sometimes sound 1/2 step sharp through my Blues Jr and my 64 Vibroverb, but not through any other amp. Not always, just sometimes. Yet, a tuner always confirms that it's dead on. Other guitars are fine through those two amps, in the studio or on the gig.

I have no idea what causes it. Thought it might be a resonant tube, but no deal. Happens in different rooms, and only on that B note, especially with the Blues Jr. When I chord with the note, I get no out of tune beating. Sounds fine.

One thing I thought is that it might be pickup resonance, but I think that would show on a tuner.

Either you are not nuts, or we are both nuts.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by hymenoptera

This might be a good thing. If you couldn't hear this then there might be a problem. Rarely will you find an instrument that sounds good in every key.
Equal temperament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Add to the compromises of 12 Tone ET the relative unpredictability of string inharmonicity.

Strings, particularly wire/metal strings, diverge from the 'pure' Pythagorean harmonic series because of their physical nature. So a metal string precisely half the resonating length will actually sound slightly above the pure octave, everything else being equal. (This is how stretch tunings for pianos arose.)

Also, this is a biggie, strings get stretched. And bass strings can really get stretched, depending on how you play. Add to that the fact that bass strings are expensive and some folks rarely change them.

And, of course, there are setup and other peculiarities of specific instruments -- as well as playing technique.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by kennybro

I've had this happen to me with certain situations on the gig and in the studio. It's a bear when you're trying to sing at a gig.

The B note on the low E of my old Tele sometimes sound 1/2 step sharp through my Blues Jr and my 64 Vibroverb, but not through any other amp. Not always, just sometimes. Yet, a tuner always confirms that it's dead on. Other guitars are fine through those two amps, in the studio or on the gig.

I have no idea what causes it. Thought it might be a resonant tube, but no deal. Happens in different rooms, and only on that B note, especially with the Blues Jr. When I chord with the note, I get no out of tune beating. Sounds fine.

One thing I thought is that it might be pickup resonance, but I think that would show on a tuner.

Either you are not nuts, or we are both nuts.

I got your answer right here, partner!

String inharmonicity. In addition to a given string likely sounding sharper than it 'should' when stopped higher, the overtone series of the string itself can be inharmonic. Meaning the overtone series is slightly 'out of tune' with the fundamental.

If you use a tuner that focuses on the fundamental, it shows as correct. But let's say you 'filter' (attenuate) the fundamental in some way (like through a guitar amp or bass amp with smaller speaker/less bottom response -- don't forget the fundamental of an E string on a bass is LOW... ~41 Hz) and the overtone series becomes louder in relation to the fundamental. At that point, the slightly sharper overtones may 'fool' a given tuner -- or your ear.

Make sense? (I'm still sorting out this string inharmonicity issue so if any physicists want to weigh in to straighten me out on anything, I'd consider it a kindness.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity

[kennybro]

Thanks Blue. That makes a lot of sense. So the fundumental get filtered by a situation, and this sharper overtone becomes audible, yet a tuner will read right on because the problem is occuring after the tuner.

Never tried to check it with a mic tuner in the room. That might show the sharper overtone.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by kennybro

Thanks Blue. That makes a lot of sense. So the fundumental get filtered by a situation, and this sharper overtone becomes audible, yet a tuner will read right on because the problem is occuring after the tuner.

Never tried to check it with a mic tuner in the room. That might show the sharper overtone.

Not so much that the 'problem' occurs after the tuner but perhaps that a smaller (or just different) amp might emphasize the overtone series more. If the tuner is basically analyzing the fundamental, it's showing that. But, say you're going through a small, tight speaker, the fundamental may not be reproduced as much, and the 'pitch information' perceived by your ear is derived more from the overtones, which are likely to be higher than predicted by a simple adherence to the basic Pythagorean harmonic formula.


Mind you, as I noted, I'm still just sorting this inharmonicity stuff out myself... but it definitely has seemed to offer the promise of answers for some of my ongoing questions regarding pitch, temperament, and harmony.

[Old Goat]

My Guild D-25 has a nasty (to me) sound on the G string. Going in and smoothing all the struts and glue joints helped, but I can still hear it. Oddly, other folks can't.

[glenn Taylor]

I used to have a Fender PJ bass that F never was in tune.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by vernier

Maybe holding the string down too hard? . .
.
.

except for the F, the F# is the note with the most tension required to fret it, so that would make sense

I had a guitarist friend who believe that F# was 'evil'. We used to drive him crazy by hitting a big F# chord on the end of every tune!

I would suggest tuning the bass down to an Eb or a D and see if it is the F# that sounds out or the 'second fret' note that sounds out

[drbob1]

You can test the harmonic series theory fairly neatly. Record the bass with the offending note. Set up a sharp notch filter at exactly that frequency (like a parametric EQ with a very small Q) and see if it makes it worse. Since the lowest note is implied by the harmonics, it'll still sound like it's there even if you can't hear it, but it should be even more out of tune.

If that IS the problem, what can you do about it? You could try dropping a low pass filter on that note only with a sharp dip above but that's going to change timbre. You could try slightly detuning the intonation. You could have the guitar Plecked. You could use a frequency analyser and try and figure out exactly what partials are tuned wrong and tune or remove them with a pitch correction algorithm. You could replace all the F# notes with a pitch shifted F or G, or with a triggered sample.

That's all the ideas I got....

[whiteaxxxe]

Originally Posted by hymenoptera

This might be a good thing. If you couldn't hear this then there might be a problem. Rarely will you find an instrument that sounds good in every key.
Equal temperament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

exactly this is the point. stringed instruments are NEVER equal temperament - tuned.

unless you get you bass/guitar compensated. what this does exactly, I cant explain. I have my guitars compensated and I can tell you, out-of-tune-problems are gone. I can play an open C-major with a heavy distorted sound (this includes a major third, a no-go in distortion-domain) and the chord rings solid as a stone.

the thing is, yopu have a compensation on guitars/basses build within the bridge, but this only works for half of the string, that is not fretted. so ????? wtf ... the other half is uncompensated, as if there were not the same laws of physics at work??? the manufacturer dont think that far??? any of the "real" great guitar-players have their guitars (for basses its the same) compensated. (except Eric Clapton ... he says, has to be this way, its the blues ... but, hey, its EC ... Carlos Santana is another one who is completely painfree in this regards ... Johnny Winter is the tuning-hero in person ...)

ever played "highway to hell"? never got that feel-and-sound like the original? its because you have to tune your guitar not to a tuner, regardless how good this tuner is, but to Amajor, means, Amajor has to sound absolutely correct. and with an uncompensated guitar you run even in this case into some more or less slight problems when it comes to Dmajor.

this is rocket science ... for me at least, but I know the problem and I got it fixed.

do an experiment: tune your instrument as well as possible, and then measure with a tuner the tone of the third fret of the lowest string. you will believe your tuner is out of order, wel its not, the tone is simply wrong.

there is - as far as I know - only one guitar, that comes nearly perfect compensated in stock: its the Brian May Red Special. with this guitar the tuning is nearly perfect because of its short scale and the zero-fret.

luckily my neighbour is an expert in this and he compensates my guitars. a difference like night and day to a guitar uncompensated.

I once ran into this problem, when I had to record off a sheet 4 guitar-lines to stacked synth-pads. when the first note was ok, the second was out of tune. only guitars wouldnt have made that so obvious. I tricked with autotuner and recording every single note ... man!!!!! :-((( I got nuts with this. the next day I told my neighbour to compensate my guitars.

beside this all: compensated instruments sing. the whole sound is way better than uncompensated. becasue this affects the overtones in a highly grade, they all will become smoother, because well tempered, what you can never achieve with a uncompensated guitar.

[javenscale]

My uncle was a luthier and guitar repair man, he used to say if you play an instrument in one key for long enough it aligns itself to that key, he thought it had something to do with vibration at set frequencies over time, he only noticed it in old instruments, even after a re-fret he could tell which key an instrument was played in, I've heard it said that piano manufacturers age their frames in piano schools before putting them in a new case and selling them as new, worn in is a phrase that comes to mind, perhaps your bass is worn in and has an aversion to F# ??

[javenscale]

didn't Lucy Scale Developments (LSD) manufacture a compensated fretboard on their guitars back in the 90's, I knew one of their demonstrators who was proud of his ability to play it, apparently it was really difficult to play, it had a split fret system to overcome the temperament

[Jazz Noise]

Joe's idea is good.

I think the harmonic series post is very relevant. If the overtones imply a frequency of 87 Hz but the fundamental is actually 80 hz, our brain will simply "make" the fundamental 87 hz. Our ear does this alot and it's a similar mechanic the phantom fundamental you get on a Timpani, where the skin actually generates the overtones and our ears fill in the blank. We have expectancies, our brain will quantize the information to conform to our expectations to make dealing with it and making decisions based on it easier.

And sometimes then it'll turn out that the result is also really confusing. Hurray.

[davet]

This guy: Dennis Hook Compensated Nut .mpg - YouTube
has a video demonstrating nut bridge compensation.

Interesting....

[twonks]

no idea on this one buddy.

[Doc7string]

Appreciate all the comments. I realize stringed/fretted instruments are imperfect. I have been playing guitar seriously for 34 years, and although Im a much better guitarist than bassist, my left/fretting hand technique remains good. In fact I have a very light hand so the string is not distorted/bent to the wood. I agree its all problems with equal temprament tuning and overtones (well abive my understanding as understanding as well. There are a lot of very interesting articles on the true temperament (neck manufacturer) web site. Unfortunately if I master the subject it still doesnt fix the problem. Maybe im just so used to hearing the higher frequencies son a guitar that the more discernable issues in the lower tones of the bass are rating my tympanic membranes in a bad way. I will try all of your suggestions and hope for the best. Thanks for all the great input.

Btw i am recording direct.

[Jazz Noise]

Mmm, sorry, the psychoacoustic ramblings dont exactly fix the problem.

The conclusion, implied but undelivered, is that you should try changing your bass strings. If they're old the quality of the string changes in different parts and you're more likely to have issues with inharmonics. This is why old strings on a guitar don't simply sound like they've had the high end eq'd off, they can sound sort of undefined or "off".

Complex explanation of a simple solution, but there you go!

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Jazz Noise

Mmm, sorry, the psychoacoustic ramblings dont exactly fix the problem.

The conclusion, implied but undelivered, is that you should try changing your bass strings. If they're old the quality of the string changes in different parts and you're more likely to have issues with inharmonics. This is why old strings on a guitar don't simply sound like they've had the high end eq'd off, they can sound sort of undefined or "off".

Complex explanation of a simple solution, but there you go!

You're a lucky man whose only pitch troubles have been solved by a new set of strings!

Of course, the very first thing the OP said was, "My bass [...] is properly intonated, it has new strings, the frets are in perfect shape [...]" But, to be on the safe side, a number of others, including myself, mentioned strings and stretching. Welcome to the club.





Of course, those who get really frustrated can do what I did, trade my fretted basses in on a fretless.

[catfishmusic]

Originally Posted by vernier

Maybe holding the string down too hard? . .
.
.

+1

Or maybe you've just got a bad case of F sharp-itis.

[Jules]

Possibly two issues at play here

1 )Out of tune note

2) Room with resonance peak / node? at or near that frequency

A strobe tuner can be used to re tune the fretted F sharp string, then you can punch in / do an alternate take - just for just those notes

This gets the recording job done correctly.

If strobe says in tune and room still unhappy, time to tame the room, move things around,

Also - make sure that the other instruments arent slightly sharp at that note! as that will further sour the pitching. And also watch out for floor tom tunings that might be very close to the f sharp and cause 'beating' when played together. (solo the bass and toms to check this - when wrong it should produce a loud WHU WHU WHU - an ugly "tremolo" effect..)

[Jazz Noise]

Originally Posted by theblue1

You're a lucky man whose only pitch troubles have been solved by a new set of strings!

Of course, the very first thing the OP said was, "My bass [...] is properly intonated, it has new strings, the frets are in perfect shape [...]" But, to be on the safe side, a number of others, including myself, mentioned strings and stretching. Welcome to the club.

Of course, those who get really frustrated can do what I did, trade my fretted basses in on a fretless.

Didn't see that, my bad!

Well, not so true. A freind of mine whose a newbie guitarist was playing my Mexican Strat and a string broke - being a nice guy he said he'd have a go at changing the string and started taking apart the bridge thinking that was the only way to get the string off. By the time I'd come back with my coffee the damage was done, I politely put it away and reintonated it afterwards.

He seems to be DI'ing, so if it's showing up on headphones then it's not a room issue. If it's showing up in tune and still sounds sour when solo'd, then I'm bamboozeled. The only thing I think of is checking your guitar's intonation and see if the F# are in tune, maybe you're used to it being slightly off?

[FFTT]

The intonation of the low E & B stings can fool even the most experienced player.

You think you've got the octave and harmonic dead on, but then you go down
to the G or D on the fingerboard and it's off.

It's harder for tuners to read the lower notes because of the way the note decays.
It drove me Bat Sh*t crazy sometimes trying to work with a sampling needle tuner.

I tend to fine tune on the harmonic, rather than the open strings and then
check the G & D mid neck.

Temp changes in the room or from your hands can make a perfectly tuned bass
or guitar go out of tune in minutes.

If the neck has a slight bow, this can also cause intonation problems.

Sometimes the F & F# will sound a bit off, because of decaying harmonics from the
previous note or the following note, especially if you're just moving a half step.

[skinnypete]

What key is the song in, when the F# sounds out of tune? If you're playing an F# on a D major chord, than the F# will sound sharp, because of equal temperment.

Also it could be a "wolf" note, eg. a note that doesn't resonate well on the instrument. This is more noticable on hollow instruments, but I'm pretty sure it can happen on solid body instruments as well.

What happens when you play the F# into a chromatic tuner?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[FFTT]

I agree with Jules, that it could also be coming from another instrument in the mix
if the bass is dead on in itself.

It does not matter if you just tuned 5 minutes ago, check the tuning again,
right before you start tracking.