Why does the F# on my bass sound out of tune?

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by skinnypete

Not exactly. Both you and johnepstein had corrected me, so I was explaining what I meant.

So from a practical and musical standpoint, without getting caught up on semantics, luthier jargon or physics, wolf notes can appear as choked, quiet or "dead" notes. In my experience this is not uncommon.

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That's fine. You just have a broader definition.

[skinnypete]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

That's fine. You just have a broader definition.

Naw dude. A wolf is a wolf. Ask any bass player that plays arco in thumb position on the A string. Every bass I've ever played has a wolf between G and Bb (around 110hz).

As well as the classic honky warbling, the wolf tone can make the adjacent notes choked out and hard to bow. These are not "dead spots." That is something else entirely.

Anyway if you guys don't believe me that's fine, this is getting off topic now.

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[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by skinnypete

Naw dude. A wolf is a wolf. Ask any bass player that plays arco in thumb position on the A string. Every bass I've ever played has a wolf between G and Bb (around 110hz).

As well as the classic honky warbling, the wolf tone can make the adjacent notes choked out and hard to bow. These are not "dead spots." That is something else entirely.

Anyway if you guys don't believe me that's fine, this is getting off topic now.

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Well, you might notice a few posts above that I identified myself also as a bass player, and I tried to be polite by granting you a slightly broader definition of the term than what is generally accepted.

A wolf tone is an inordinately sustained and dissonant overtone amplified through sympathetic resonance with the body of the host instrument. It's a note that blarts out on your instrument.

Even the word "wolf" implies something howling or loud.

I have a wolf killer on my bass. Neoprene inside a brass tube that slides over the offending string and positioned below the bridge. It's sole purpose is to reduce the wolf (occurring at the general G#ish frequencies you identified above).

That's really what it is. There's what you think it is and what everyone else knows. It's not a new phenomenon and the term is pretty firmly established among players and builders. Go confirm with your luthier friends and do a little internetty research. I'm pretty sure that you will quickly find the term is more exclusive than your usage.

You are, however, free to continue using as you have.

[skinnypete]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Well, you might notice a few posts above that I identified myself also as a bass player, and I tried to be polite by granting you a slightly broader definition of the term than what is generally accepted.

A wolf tone is an inordinately sustained and dissonant overtone amplified through sympathetic resonance with the body of the host instrument. It's a note that blarts out on your instrument.

Even the word "wolf" implies something howling or loud.

I have a wolf killer on my bass. Neoprene inside a brass tube that slides over the offending string and positioned below the bridge. It's sole purpose is to reduce the wolf (occurring at the general G#ish frequencies you identified above).

That's really what it is. There's what you think it is and what everyone else knows. It's not a new phenomenon and the term is pretty firmly established among players and builders. Go confirm with your luthier friends and do a little internetty research. I'm pretty sure that you will quickly find the term is more exclusive than your usage.

You are, however, free to continue using as you have.

You just dont get it, and now youre getting cute. Im done.

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[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by skinnypete

You just dont get it, and now youre getting cute. Im done.

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I get it. You say that there are notes around the wolf that are attenuated and difficult to play. Those aren't wolf notes. Even in your own explanation a few posts above you have to use the term "wolf" to specifically describe the honky note to which your attenuated notes are adjacent. If you don't want to call those dead spots, then fine - but they are not wolf tones.

I wasn't trying to be cute, so apologies if it reads that way. Was simply saying you can continue with your definition if you want, but I'm reasonably assured it's just going to continue to cause misunderstanding (this conversation to wit).

[Ephi82]

Originally Posted by Old Goat

My Guild D-25 has a nasty (to me) sound on the G string. Going in and smoothing all the struts and glue joints helped, but I can still hear it. Oddly, other folks can't.

I have a Guild D-25 also. (80's Westerly) I have had same issue with g string, especially when it was newer. I simply tuned it just a smidge flat.

It has aged very nicely, and the tone of the guitar is more rounded, and I dont hear the g thing so much anymore. Could very well be a harmonic resonant thing in the wood.

Have you ever tried a change in string gauge? (Maybe just on the g)

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Ephi82

I have a Guild D-25 also. (80's Westerly) I have had same issue with g string, especially when it was newer. I simply tuned it just a smidge flat.

It has aged very nicely, and the tone of the guitar is more rounded, and I dont hear the g thing so much anymore. Could very well be a harmonic resonant thing in the wood.

Have you ever tried a change in string gauge? (Maybe just on the g)

This is pretty typical on a lot of acoustics, dreadnoughts in particular. Can be exacerbated by problems with equal temperament adding additional dissonance, but often the root problem can be tamed by tuning the top post-assembly by shaving the braces with finger planes and maybe even spot-dampening the sound board. Post assembly top-tuning isn't something that is typically done with production line guitars, so often why they have weird quirks like this. Any good acoustic luthier should know how to tame. I've never been great at brace shaving, but have heard dramatic betterment of guitars when done by someone with lots of experience.

[l.sicilian]

...

[skinnypete]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

I get it. You say that there are notes around the wolf that are attenuated and difficult to play. Those aren't wolf notes. Even in your own explanation a few posts above you have to use the term "wolf" to specifically describe the honky note to which your attenuated notes are adjacent. If you don't want to call those dead spots, then fine - but they are not wolf tones.

I wasn't trying to be cute, so apologies if it reads that way. Was simply saying you can continue with your definition if you want, but I'm reasonably assured it's just going to continue to cause misunderstanding (this conversation to wit).

My definition is no different than the standard definition. I didn't choose my wording carefully at first so I can see why you guys would think I was mixed up, but I was just trying to keep it short to help the OP, which is why were here.

There might be a note on a bass that wont speak right, and this can be because its next to a wolf tone. Thats all I was saying, there's really no need to argue with that.

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[Jules]

Wolf Tone Studios!

[Fu Schnickens]

Could it be that no one noticed that the note is wrong in it's place in the song? Maybe an F# is not supposed to be played at that juncture. Harmony mistake? Unless it's jazz, of course. Then it's supposed to sound that way.

On the other hand, maybe you're just trippin'. Either way, weird. Happened to me too with certain notes on certain guitars and never on a natural note. I just chalked it up to imperfection in the guitar... or trippin'. Let us know if you figure it out.

[famousbass]

Am I missing something? Could it be that the OP never posted an audio sample? If so, where?

[Jules]

People dont always have the time to stop and do that.. just sayn

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by skinnypete

Not exactly. Both you and johnepstein had corrected me, so I was explaining what I meant.

So from a practical and musical standpoint, without getting caught up on semantics, luthier jargon or physics, wolf notes can appear as choked, quiet or "dead" notes. In my experience this is not uncommon.

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No.

While the dead spot is associated with the wolf tone it is not the wolf tone. The wolf is the resonance. The dead spot is a dead spot.

It's the exact same thing as calling the dead spot that lies in between room modes a room mode. It isn't. This becomes especially clear when you're trying to figure out what treatment to use for the resonance.

It's like someone who talks about current when they mean voltage. Or a "short" when they mean an open circuit.

If we don't keep our terminology straight words become useless.

Just because a lot of people use a term incorrectly does not make that usage right.

To get back on topic, I doubt that a dead spot on a particular note on a fretted instrument is going to cause the note to sound out of tune, although it very well might make it dull. However a wolf tone (i.e. resonance) that is just barely off the correct pitch might very well drag the note slightly off key if the resonance peak is wide enough (the Q is sufficiently low) to get excited by energy at the adjacent frequency.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Jules

Wolf Tone Studios!

Heh!

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

No.

While the dead spot is associated with the wolf tone it is not the wolf tone. The wolf is the resonance. The dead spot is a dead spot.

It's the exact same thing as calling the dead spot that lies in between room modes a room mode. It isn't. This becomes especially clear when you're trying to figure out what treatment to use for the resonance.

It's like someone who talks about current when they mean voltage. Or a "short" when they mean an open circuit.

If we don't keep our terminology straight words become useless.

Just because a lot of people use a term incorrectly does not make that usage right.

To get back on topic, I doubt that a dead spot on a particular note on a fretted instrument is going to cause the note to sound out of tune, although it very well might make it dull. However a wolf tone (i.e. resonance) that is just barely off the correct pitch might very well drag the note slightly off key if the resonance peak is wide enough (the Q is sufficiently low) to get excited by energy at the adjacent frequency.

John, I already went through this with SkinnyPete starting about post #56 and we agreed to disagree. Although he did call me cute. I'm not sure how to take that, although it is flattering.

[skinnypete]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

If we don't keep our terminology straight words become useless.

You guys are more concerned with semantics and technical jargon, that's fine.

I'm talking about sounds, and actually playing the instrument.

Anyway, I was hoping this OT conversation was wrapped a while ago, we already got the facepalm, dudes.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by skinnypete

You guys are more concerned with semantics and technical jargon, that's fine.

I'm talking about sounds, and actually playing the instrument.

Anyway, I was hoping this OT conversation was wrapped a while ago, we already got the facepalm, dudes.

Well...I think everyone here is talking about sounds and actually playing too. That's where wolf tones and dead notes present themselves, so kind of de facto.

Calling a dead note a wolf tone is like saying something is a rest when you mean a quarter note. Words are so overrated.

[skinnypete]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Well...I think everyone here is talking about sounds and actually playing too. That's where wolf tones and dead notes present themselves, so kind of de facto.

Calling a dead note a wolf tone is like saying something is a rest when you mean a quarter note. Words are so overrated.

Dude, im trying to end this OT conversation and you keep misrepresenting what im saying. Im over it. Actually practice your instrument, you might someday learn what im talking about by hands on experience.

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[chrispick]

What I don't understand is why no one is talking about wolf tones. I mean, Teen Wolf. Great bass player, that guy. I'd give him an F sharp.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by chrispick

What I don't understand is why no one is talking about wolf tones? I mean, Teen Wolf. Great bass player, that guy. I'd give him an F sharp.

There was actually a dude named Wolfe Tone – a C18 Irish revolutionary.



He, ironically, is a dead Tone.

[John Eppstein]

Precision in technical language is an important thing. Much misinformation is propagated over the internet (and elsewhere) by improper use of technical terminology.

How many here know the difference between phase and polarity?

Hoe many here say their cable is "shorting out" when it really has a broken conductor or solder joint?

Technical language is not like street slang where a word might mean whatever you want it to, e.g. "bad"= good.

That being said, this going around in circles is pointless and counterproductive.

[skinnypete]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Much misinformation is propagated over the internet (and elsewhere) by improper use of technical terminology.

Actually, I think even more misinformation is propagated over the internet by phony experts and bored weekend warriors on Wikipedia and certain forums.

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[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by skinnypete

Actually, I think even more misinformation is propagated over the internet by phony experts and bored weekend warriors on Wikipedia and certain forums.

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How are you exempt from such charges? Seems there is nothing to have assured you that you aren't victim to the delusion of authority that you are accusing of John and me.

[Jazz Noise]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

There was actually a dude named Wolfe Tone – a C18 Irish revolutionary.

He, ironically, is a dead Tone.

GO ON THE PROVOS

Ahem.

Skinny Pete, while I'm aware and admire the Breaking Bad reference, I'd advise dropping this. Actually, everyone should. This is/was a perfectly good discussion that has since been covered in a good 2 pages of fecal matter. Now I've no problem with whomever smearing what wherever, but please keep it between yourselves!

[skinnypete]

Originally Posted by Jazz Noise

Skinny Pete, while I'm aware and admire the Breaking Bad reference, I'd advise dropping this. Actually, everyone should. This is/was a perfectly good discussion that has since been covered in a good 2 pages of fecal matter.

I agree. Actually, I tried to end the whole "wolf tone tangent" 3 weeks and 40ish posts ago. Yeah, I misspoke pretty drastically at one point, mainly because I had already moved on. But GET OVER IT. I apologize to everyone who has read all the preceding BS, but I just don't like getting lectured about something that I experience every day.

The fact is we're just talking apples and oranges, as I've been saying, so let's move on.

[Hardtoe]

Originally Posted by skinnypete

I agree. Actually, I tried to end the whole "wolf tone tangent" 3 weeks and 40ish posts ago. Yeah, I misspoke pretty drastically at one point, mainly because I had already moved on. But GET OVER IT. I apologize to everyone who has read all the preceding BS, but I just don't like getting lectured about something that I experience every day.

The fact is we're just talking apples and oranges, as I've been saying, so let's move on.

Or maybe someone just HAS to have the last word

oh good God, please let it be ME

[Jazz Noise]

Originally Posted by skinnypete

I agree.

Good. Move on to a new thread already!