Old 26th December 2012
  #91
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Weihe View Post
Lieber Michael,

vielen Dank für den Willkommens-Gruß!
Ich wünsche Dir einen schönen zweiten Weihnachtstag
und ein gesundes, inspirierendes, spaßiges und erfolgreiches Jahr 2013

Dear Michael,

Happy Boxing Day to You and everyone
and a healthy, inspiring, happy und successful New Year

Peter
Thank you Peter. Hopefully I get to see you during MusikMesse in 2013, I am trying hard to make it out this time
Old 27th December 2012
  #92
Gear interested
Kemper profiling

Hi Michael
great to hear your loving the Kemper
Many of us on the Kemper forum would really appreciate it if you shared some tips on profiling on our forum.
Im especially interested in how hard to you hit the kemper return level.
I find its convertors like being hit rather hot.
Anyway-any info you could share with us would be greatly appreciated

kind regards
JJ

ps-I also mainly profile via my trident A range pre from Sweet Silence Studio
wow- what a wonderful piece of gear!


Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener View Post
I have been doing guitar based records for almost 40 years and I have worked with a ton of excellent guitar players (Zakk, Steve Stevens, George Lynch, Nuno, Vito Bratta, Wolf Hoffmann, Mick Mars, James Hetfield, Kane Roberts, Scottie and Snake from Skid Row, Chris Impelliteri, Dimebag, Ty Tabor etc.) and just as many great amps. The Kemper is a game changer and is hands down THE best piece of gear that walked though my studio door in the last 20 years.

I am a stickler for guitar tone and I don't take guitar tone lightly. I've tried all the simulators more than once with a bunch of different players and I didn't like ANY of them (still don't). They don't do your right hand justice, so they make you play different. The Kemper is different, it is not a simulator it is a profiler, to me that makes a big difference.

I have about 50 different guitar amps, guitar pre-amps, and lots of cabinets, microphones and mic pres. They all sound great for something, all great in their own way. Rarely do I just use one single amp/cab/mic, most of the time I use combinations.

I re-amped a DI guitar track through my Splawn together with a Bogner module, via two 4x12 cabs with 3 different speakers and 4 different mics via the Chandler TG-2 mic pre and the Trident A-range mic pre, mixed together to one track by the CraneSong Spider, and the sound was killer. Recorded the live amp track into Nuendo, I then profiled that exact setup, straight out of the Spider and re-amped the same DI track through the Kemper profile of that setup and punched it in and out of the original amp track: I could not hear a difference, I could not tell where the amp track ended and the Kemper track started and vice versa. That is close enough for me. If I can not tell a difference with the track in solo, nobody will be able to hear a difference when I'm done with the mix!

The secret is in getting a great profile and there are a bunch of things to be paid attention to, like the actual return level, the level going into the Kemper, refining the profile the correct way etc. If done right, I can not tell the profile from the original, if NOT done right, there will be a noticeable difference.

Am I going to sell all my amps? Of course not, there are a million combinations that sound good and are special to a particular track or song. Will I profile that combination used on that particular track? Yes, of course. Do I like other peoples profiles, yes, some of them are very good and are very inspiring, some others don't fit my style, so I won't use them.

I love being able to give the guys the exact sound they got in the studio on their album to take on the road.

I think the Kemper KPA is an amazing piece of gear and it does make my job easier.

my 2 cents - now back to making music...
Old 27th December 2012
  #93
Lives for gear
 
tomdarude's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener View Post
Thank you Peter. Hopefully I get to see you during MusikMesse in 2013, I am trying hard to make it out this time
Yeahhh... come over Michael, long time no see!!

We´ll have our beer-get together as always on thursday for sure
Old 28th December 2012
  #94
Lives for gear
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Well I'm not arguing Axe vs Kemper. Don't you think it depends on whether you are trying to duplicate your amp sound or not? For myself I'm not. I'm interested in finding new sounds and a wide variety of useable real tones. I suppose if I had that KILLER tone and I wanted to have THAT EXACT TONE, and wanted to simplify my lugging around rig, that might be something else.

Hey I think the Kemper sounds great. I'm not denigrating it. I just don't feel the need or desire to have one. I'm very happy with the Axe Fx II.
I predict you will come over to Kemper eventually. It's an inevitability. The Axe excels pretty well in the high gain synthetic djent sound but your style seems to be more clean and dirty cleans, right up the Kemper alley.
Old 29th December 2012
  #95
Gear nut
 
maku's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by polifemo View Post
Dear Mr Wagener,

I really hope that you go into the "amp profiling business" offering well created profiles of your amazing amp collection.
I´d love to be able to buy, not only single amp profiles, but also profiles of "killer combos" like the Splawn/Bogner one you told about in your post!

As the Kemper community is constantly growing, I believe that there´s a market for this, and with you reputation regarding guitar tones, I guess that this would take off immediately.

Keep up the good work :-)

Back to music...
+10,000 to this!!

MW - please sell some profiles!!!
Quote
1
Old 29th December 2012
  #96
Lives for gear
 
Ward Pike's Avatar
No disregard or disrespect to Mr. Wagener.

But I think the Kemper could increase it's stock dramatically with the input of true "Tone Gurus" like George Lynch and Eric Johnson. Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page also come to mind. As does EVH if he could replicate his tone from VH1 and VH2.

Now, at least one of these individuals listed above is quite a hard character to deal with, and at least one other above is a space cadet, and yet another is evasive (to put it mildly!). HOWEVER... these chaps have achieved many of the greatest tones to ever come out of the guitar amplifier palette.

Even in the paper-shredding days of the 80s, Lynch was able to give us the greatest guitar tones of the era. Thrust and focus in the sound that was 20 years ahead of the times.

To round things out, a couple of good country players like Paisley, Mason, Rowan and Wariner could also really be of value.
Old 29th December 2012
  #97
Lives for gear
Peter - How much refinement did you do?

Sounds real good, but I agree with the veiled sound. How much refinement from the basic profiling did you do? What was your process? I know you can go through the basic profiling, but then I have seen guys keep refining and get it even closer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Weihe View Post
I quickly recorded some files with a '68 marshall and a 70s Vox AC30 and their profiles through the Kemper Amp for comparison when i did a test for the German magazine Xound last June.

I often found that heavily distorted sounds are the least critical for amp emulation. So I chose straight vintage signal chains: '62 Strat or '53 Tele-cable-amps on half volume - mics- preamps (Marshall through V72s; Vox through API) -Console- Lavry Gold ADC.

Here's the link to the soundfiles:

Soundfiles Kemper Profiling Amp

Best Peter
Old 29th December 2012
  #98
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Pike View Post
No disregard or disrespect to Mr. Wagener.

But I think the Kemper could increase it's stock dramatically with the input of true "Tone Gurus" like George Lynch and Eric Johnson. Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page also come to mind. As does EVH if he could replicate his tone from VH1 and VH2.

Now, at least one of these individuals listed above is quite a hard character to deal with, and at least one other above is a space cadet, and yet another is evasive (to put it mildly!). HOWEVER... these chaps have achieved many of the greatest tones to ever come out of the guitar amplifier palette.

Even in the paper-shredding days of the 80s, Lynch was able to give us the greatest guitar tones of the era. Thrust and focus in the sound that was 20 years ahead of the times.

To round things out, a couple of good country players like Paisley, Mason, Rowan and Wariner could also really be of value.
Well, the signature sound of these gentlemen is at least to 85% based on their playing, it's in their fingers, so the amp does not have much to do with it. I worked with Lynch on at least 3 different albums, and I was there when we got those sounds you like, we used different amps on all albums and he always sounded like Lynch.

I used the exact same setup, for White Lion, Skid Row, Extreme and a bunch of others, I mean same amp, same cab, same mics, same pres, the only difference was the room, the guitar and of course the player, all sounded completely different. The Kemper is not profiling different playing styles, rather a certain amp or combination of amps. I am certain that if all those guys mentioned above would play through the same profile, they all would sound completely different. That said, I would be interested to hear that test
Old 29th December 2012
  #99
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Pike View Post
tone from VH1 and VH2.
That brown sound has never been replicated even with real amps. Doubtful the kemper could do it even if you could get EVH's plexi and original jbl/celestion cab. Even then the kemper would only be a model of it. A "wax figure". Even Eddie can't replicate the tone form the first 4 or 5 records with real amps. He can't remember what he used or more liek he won't tell anyone. The variac thing is still not been confirmed 35 years later as well as whether or not his amp was modded by
Jose Arredondo.

Listen to loss control isolated guitar on YT, noone has ever emulated that crunch sound. A digital modeler can't get those harmonics, tube compression and tube saturation nuances and textures. These Kemper units are really cool, but music is organic, even advanced modelers are only taking snap shots of discrete moment(s) in time. Amps speakers and guitars breath infinitely with the air in the rooms and the unpredictable artifacts sue to the response of the player's attack. Guitar tone is dynamic, not static like these modeler technologies. This means guitar tones aren't cloned they are only captured at finite intervals and then emulated and stored in a data structure for recall. It can never capture the whole cup of tea.

Virtual reality is cool, but it's not the real deal it's virtual. But this is not to say they shouldn't keep trying to clone things.
someday maybe we can get clones of Eddie and Jeff beck and add them to our list of studio gear.
Old 29th December 2012
  #100
Gear interested
 

Came to this thread since it's being linked to all over in Kemper threads. Hey Michael, hope you're still getting good use out of the MTS modules I did for you years ago including the red faceplate bogner one. If I had the kemper back then I would have profiled every mod I did so I had a sonic thumbprint of it.

I've had my Kemper since February. One thing I've noticed is that different guitars, like when plugged into real amps, sound.... different. So even if somebody came out with a "tone gurus" set of profiles, not only the person playing would affect it but also the guitar used.

This is why 99% of my 'go to' profiles are ones that I've captured. Are they still useable with other guitars? Of course, they just sound a little different. Not saying it's better or worse, just... different.

If someone really wanted to get 'artist tones' they need to find an isolated track, and run a DAW between the mic and kemper. On the DAW, use an EQ matching program like Ozone. This gets crazy close, but you really have to use the same guitar again for the best match. I have a clip on soundcloud where I did this with Randy Rhoads' tone on Crazy Train - because it was so unique - and I got it pretty dang close.

Pete
Old 29th December 2012
  #101
Gear addict
 
tomteontour's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener View Post
I have been doing guitar based records for almost 40 years and I have worked with a ton of excellent guitar players (Zakk, Steve Stevens, George Lynch, Nuno, Vito Bratta, Wolf Hoffmann, Mick Mars, James Hetfield, Kane Roberts, Scottie and Snake from Skid Row, Chris Impelliteri, Dimebag, Ty Tabor etc.) and just as many great amps. The Kemper is a game changer and is hands down THE best piece of gear that walked though my studio door in the last 20 years.

I am a stickler for guitar tone and I don't take guitar tone lightly. I've tried all the simulators more than once with a bunch of different players and I didn't like ANY of them (still don't). They don't do your right hand justice, so they make you play different. The Kemper is different, it is not a simulator it is a profiler, to me that makes a big difference.

I have about 50 different guitar amps, guitar pre-amps, and lots of cabinets, microphones and mic pres. They all sound great for something, all great in their own way. Rarely do I just use one single amp/cab/mic, most of the time I use combinations.

I re-amped a DI guitar track through my Splawn together with a Bogner module, via two 4x12 cabs with 3 different speakers and 4 different mics via the Chandler TG-2 mic pre and the Trident A-range mic pre, mixed together to one track by the CraneSong Spider, and the sound was killer. Recorded the live amp track into Nuendo, I then profiled that exact setup, straight out of the Spider and re-amped the same DI track through the Kemper profile of that setup and punched it in and out of the original amp track: I could not hear a difference, I could not tell where the amp track ended and the Kemper track started and vice versa. That is close enough for me. If I can not tell a difference with the track in solo, nobody will be able to hear a difference when I'm done with the mix!

The secret is in getting a great profile and there are a bunch of things to be paid attention to, like the actual return level, the level going into the Kemper, refining the profile the correct way etc. If done right, I can not tell the profile from the original, if NOT done right, there will be a noticeable difference.

Am I going to sell all my amps? Of course not, there are a million combinations that sound good and are special to a particular track or song. Will I profile that combination used on that particular track? Yes, of course. Do I like other peoples profiles, yes, some of them are very good and are very inspiring, some others don't fit my style, so I won't use them.

I love being able to give the guys the exact sound they got in the studio on their album to take on the road.

I think the Kemper KPA is an amazing piece of gear and it does make my job easier.

my 2 cents - now back to making music...

Dear Mr Wagener,

appreciate your inputs here soooo much! Thank you for that. Although this is probably where the "cookie crumbles" for people like you.. but I would love as well to see commercially released profiles by Mr. Wagener himself ( maybe not giving away all but a little bit of the magic of your experience

happy new year
Old 29th December 2012
  #102
GMR
Gear addict
 
GMR's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener View Post
Well, the signature sound of these gentlemen is at least to 85% based on their playing, it's in their fingers, so the amp does not have much to do with it. I worked with Lynch on at least 3 different albums, and I was there when we got those sounds you like, we used different amps on all albums and he always sounded like Lynch.

I used the exact same setup, for White Lion, Skid Row, Extreme and a bunch of others, I mean same amp, same cab, same mics, same pres, the only difference was the room, the guitar and of course the player, all sounded completely different. The Kemper is not profiling different playing styles, rather a certain amp or combination of amps. I am certain that if all those guys mentioned above would play through the same profile, they all would sound completely different. That said, I would be interested to hear that test
This is something that is so true and too often overlooked, many players all think it's all just in the amps and pedals ect, but most of the tone is in your hands, once you get a good amp, you can dial your tone the way your ears hear it and that is what is unique. you could play thru SRV rigs or VH but i doubt very few would sound like either !!! I have my sounds here set up and when my friend grabs my guitar, he doesn't sound at all like me, same sound same guitar !!!!
Old 29th December 2012
  #103
Lives for gear
 
elambo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMR View Post
This is something that is so true and too often overlooked, many players all think it's all just in the amps and pedals ect, but most of the tone is in your hands
It's not so much that it's overlooked but there little we can do to obtain the fingers of SRV, or EVH, or Eric Johnson. Instead we do what IS possible, we emulate their gear. No, it'll never give us their tone - not even close - but it's a step in the right direction.
Old 30th December 2012
  #104
Just One More Mic...
 

Does anyone think that the "tone in the hands" is lost through a profiler, I mean, there is something special about the way they hit notes, and how it translates to a tube. Just Curious.
Old 30th December 2012
  #105
Lives for gear
 
elambo's Avatar
 

From what I've gathered about the Kemper, I think those players would still sound like themselves through this box.
Old 30th December 2012
  #106
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cc14basketball View Post
Does anyone think that the "tone in the hands" is lost through a profiler, I mean, there is something special about the way they hit notes, and how it translates to a tube. Just Curious.
I know what you mean, the feel is better then all the other modellers i have tried. That said you do notice the lack of an amp if you concentrate hard enough lol.
Old 30th December 2012
  #107
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post
I think those players would still sound like themselves through this box.
they would still sound like themselves through a Pod too
Quote
1
Old 30th December 2012
  #108
Gear addict
 
Peter Stengaard's Avatar
 

I don't really care too much about what sounds people have had in the past. I can't imagine needing 100% EVH tone for anything I produce. Not that it isn't cool but Eddie already did that so why should I ? Kemper is cool. I'm standing by for rack version w AES-EBU
Quote
2
Old 30th December 2012
  #109
It is kind of a pain in the ass in this lunchbox form...I'm trying to find a home for it somewhere remotely close to the analog in snake.
Old 30th December 2012
  #110
Just One More Mic...
 

ok, i was just curious, because the sim could sound exactly like the real thing, but if it doesn't feel and respond right to a player, it is unsuccessful.
Old 30th December 2012
  #111
Lives for gear
 
Ward Pike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cc14basketball View Post
ok, i was just curious, because the sim could sound exactly like the real thing, but if it doesn't feel and respond right to a player, it is unsuccessful.
Precisely. Many actual amps have been put on the market with the help and endorsement of various players and actually are finely tuned to embody the famous tones of each endorser.

It's a shame that this isn't possible with the Kemper. I guess it isn't such an Amp-Modeler/Profiler after all.
Old 30th December 2012
  #112
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Pike View Post
Precisely. Many actual amps have been put on the market with the help and endorsement of various players and actually are finely tuned to embody the famous tones of each endorser.

It's a shame that this isn't possible with the Kemper. I guess it isn't such an Amp-Modeler/Profiler after all.
I found that the kemper isnt marketed towards the corksniffers to replace their fender twin or their dumble... Its more for engineers to simplify tracking guitars for an album, and giving the average joe a great studio guitar tone without the big ass room, pres and mics. Its about the same cost as a decent high gain head... If you wanted it to model everything absolutely perfect in feel, sound and comparison then yeah, you'll be disappointed.
Old 30th December 2012
  #113
Quote:
Originally Posted by cc14basketball View Post
ok, i was just curious, because the sim could sound exactly like the real thing, but if it doesn't feel and respond right to a player, it is unsuccessful.
It feels and responds the same as the real amp would do when mic'd up and played through the monitors, but not the same as the amp sitting next to you because you're profiling the whole signal chain and unless you have a magic mic that can capture and recreate that "in the room" or "air" of sitting right next to a real amp through your studio monitors then you're going to be SOOL I'm afraid. On the other hand it will feel and respond exactly the same as the amp would if you profile an amps pre and shove it through the same amps power section (as a digital pre).

It feels and plays like the real deal, if it didn't then it wouldn't have the buzz in the circles that it does, sounding alike is only a small part of the picture for guitarists, feel is everything.
Old 30th December 2012
  #114
Lives for gear
 
elambo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emitsweet View Post
they would still sound like themselves through a Pod too
Indeed, but this isn't for them, it's for us, and most of us can use the help. I don't know about you but I sound like a better guitarist when my equipment is better. I don't have the chops to carry it by myself so I'll take the best tone I can get my hands on.
Quote
1
Old 30th December 2012
  #115
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
 

I interpret Michael's comments as

"kemper is great for recording the tones of a real rig and storing that sound for later use anyway you want without comprimise"

To me the Kemper seems to do as much good for the recording engineer as it does for the musician.

Such a fantastically executed product, what is not to love. I don't think anyone is really suggesting that it can replace the rigs you use to create new sounds from scratch.

its a totally different product to the axe, so I would not try to compare them. Just pick the tool that best suits your needs.

If only there was something like this for keyboards. samplers just don't capture the dynamics and functionality of a real keyboard instrument. i suspect it would be a much more difficult technical challenge to achieve because you can't decouple the instrument signal into a source signal and amp process transfer function.

maybe if you could somehow use MIDI and program the patch features into the profiler it might be able to accordingly test the keyboard with specific test signals via midi to figure out how to profile it and its feature set for the patch. maybe in 10 years from now....would be so complicated to implement.
Quote
1
Old 30th December 2012
  #116
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post
Indeed, but this isn't for them, it's for us, and most of us can use the help. I don't know about you but I sound like a better guitarist when my equipment is better. I don't have the chops to carry it by myself so I'll take the best tone I can get my hands on.
well everyone sounds better through high quality better equipment, but the Pod sounds good enough, it wouldn't hold anyone back that's for sure. It's far from a first choice in recording guitars but the kemper is really just a programmable pod. I don't think spending $2000 on a digital amp is smart unless you already have a great recording chain.
Old 30th December 2012
  #117
Gear nut
 
maku's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Stengaard View Post
Kemper is cool. I'm standing by for rack version w AES-EBU
What's the probability of this happening?
Old 30th December 2012
  #118
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emitsweet View Post
well everyone sounds better through high quality better equipment, but the Pod sounds good enough, it wouldn't hold anyone back that's for sure. It's far from a first choice in recording guitars but the kemper is really just a programmable pod. I don't think spending $2000 on a digital amp is smart unless you already have a great recording chain.
even if you have a great recording chain, if you dont have a couple of decent amps and cabinets your missing out on a lot.

however if your quite young and just learning to play guitar its a great thing to have. I got one for my son. he can practice till 3am in the morning with 99% of the tone available in his headphones. it improved his enthusiasm and his work ethic and its made my wife happier because she does'nt have to listen to the amp shaking 1/2 the basement.



thank you Mr Kemper, I salute thee!
Old 30th December 2012
  #119
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
" It's far from a first choice in recording guitars but the kemper is really just a programmable pod"

Huh...? Its not a sim.. It's a profiler first off and it sounds about 5 steps up from a POD.

Next, it's not 2 grand and they can be found used for under 1500.00

Quote
1
Old 30th December 2012
  #120
Gear addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman View Post
Huh...? Its not a sim.. It's a profiler first off and it sounds about 5 steps up from a POD.
Line 6 essentially profiles amps. They just don't give you the dynamic capability, They give you presets. What do you think profiling is? it is the first process in modeling, just another marketing buzz word for fake guitar tone. I'm sure kemper has better algorithms and they are giving you random access to the hardware. But modeling is modeling no matter if you call it; profiling, emulating or whatever verb you want to use to sell your product. It's all the same. Some people think simulation is different than emulation. Is it really? technically yes but the words are often interchangeable.

Line 6 or anyone who emulates a piece of equipment is analyzing it with some test equipment and by some means of measurement to analyze its attributes in an effort to understand its behavior to quantify this using algorithms for later use Hence the word "profiling" to analyze the attributes. You first profile something to later emulate it all in order to model it.

The first time I heard the kemper I could only think of the Pod. It had that same digitized distortion sound, just much less of it. It's one of those things that if you use lower quality equipment in your chain you notice it less. With a higher quality chain, it sort of gets exposed more. It's still better than a pod no doubt, but it is no real tube amp. It's for convenience, and to have recall at the compromise of real harmonics and analog distortion.

I guess the main reason I don't see the point in something like a kemper for a sole guitar player, is I guess I come from the school of Angus Young: Gibson->Marshall->Speaker->Microphone. Kemper is cool for a pro studio that needs some variety to lure clients but how many sounds does one guitar player really need? before lack of style comes into question? The great rock guitar players in history had 2 sounds, clean and overdrive or clean and distorted. Why a kemper or any modeler? so you can sound like 50 different guitar players? I never understood multiple guitar player personality unless you play in a cover band and it's your job to profile other musicians' tone. YMMV
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