Login / Register
 
Will modern Gibsons become collectors items?
New Reply
Subscribe
#61
28th November 2012
Old 28th November 2012
  #61
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,476

Bill@WelcomeHome is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I see Gibson as more of a problem then a solution. They try and make themselves out to be craftspeople when the majority of their gear is probably made the same way... assembly line, not "crafted." ....
They are trying to tread a thin line between profitability and failure. Martin is doing the same thing. I don't know if you've seen it, but there is a video of how they make Martins.... and it is out of date, made in their old factory where -everything-, even things that didn't need to be- was hand-made. Watching a guy with a handful of metal templates scraping the neck with a draw knife and checking the cut... that was almost painful. I've been to the Martin factory, and there is a machine that spits out necks about six at a time, and the 3 or 5 coat of hand rubbed polish that every instrument used to get has been replaced by one quick coat buffed out with a car buffer.

The Gibson factory is similar, and I see nothing wrong with a machine that carves perfect necks every time, there is plenty of hand work for good craftsmen on a guitar, so to replace a human with a machine that does the job -better- makes good sense to me. Gibson, the Gibson Custom Shop, and Martin are all working out of large modern facilities and they've automated about all they can without dropping quality... other than that hand polishing thing with Martins... that bothers me. But again, you couldn't buy a Martin for under $1500 in the old days, and now they have models under $1k.
__________________
"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

Steve Martin

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

Resistance is not futile. It is voltage divided by current.
#62
29th November 2012
Old 29th November 2012
  #62
Lives for gear
 
CJ1973's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,288

CJ1973 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
If they are paying for legacy and/or ethical (buy USA) reasons, they are making a thoughtful decision... but it's not about quality.
For Chinese customers, Buy USA or European is a reality in the making. They want something they can't have, as opposed to customers in the US who want a cheaper option, no matter where it's made. That alone makes any products made in USA (quality or otherwise), in demand 'around the world'. Give it 10-15 years and Ebay would have advanced into pick-up delivery from nation to nation and the Chinese kids hearing about folks like Jimmy Page and wanting a piece of it, because their parents have cash to throw away. This will continue to raise the price up. Add to the fact that Les Paul's status. His Les Paul auction in Beverly Hills Juliens alone this year fetched rediculous amounts of money. It's reality. Gibson, like any product, has amazing quality to average. I would not say 'bad' because I like their product. Therefore, it will continue to be in demand based on supply vs demand.
#63
30th November 2012
Old 30th November 2012
  #63
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 14,460

John Eppstein is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 View Post
I don't know what 'collector's market' you're looking at. Prices have tanked from where they were a few years ago.

I bought two Bursts last year for less then half (I actually did trade heavy deals with some cash) of what they would have been in 05/06.

I never bought guitars because they were worth a ton of money, I bought them because I like to play guitar.

I'm not a huge fan of modern music, but I like some of it. I know it seems that kids today are much more interested in 60s/70s/80s/90s music then kids were into older stuff when I was younger - and I'm in my mid 30s.

I think YouTube, movies and tv shows, advertising and the whole Nintendo guitar games have introduced kids to all the music of the past. I have never heard a young kid (I have 3) say that an old record sounds musical and warm like someone suggested. I have had my kids ask me to load older music onto their mp3 players because they like the song.
Right. Prices now are merely absurd. A few years ago they were ridiculously absurd.

Any market in which a mid '70s Strat is priced at anything over $750 is overpriced.

Mediocre used guitars should be CHEAPER than new ones, not more expensive.
__________________
All opinions expressed in my posts are solely my own: I do not represent any other forums (of which I may or may not be a member), groups, or individuals although at times my views may resemble those of other entities.

************************************
Inside every old man is a young man wondering WTF happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
#64
30th November 2012
Old 30th November 2012
  #64
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 14,460

John Eppstein is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Sound View Post
. I'd have trouble believing that any guitar made after the 1970's will continue to grow in value much above what a comparable new instrument would cost.
I'd take a new Strat over a '70s Strat any day unless it was a 1 in 1000 '70s Strat.

Gibson electrics, it's a toss-up.

Quote:
If, however, I were to make a bet on which guitars where going to go up in value over time, I wouldn't put my money on currently made Gibson's. The market is too saturated and there are far too many people that claim "They don't make them like they used to". And that's a big hurdle to overcome for any manufacturer in today's market.
People who put their money in guitars (especially new guitars) expecting to turn a profit in time are, well, I'm tempted to say idiots but that's not very nice so let's just say very high risk gamblers. Who knows if guitars are going to be as popular in 30 or 50 years as they are now? Look at accordions or tenor (4 string) banjos - immensely popular at one time, of little interest outside of niche markets now.

Hell, look at the difference between a round necked and a square necked original tricone National - it's at least an order of magnitude.
#65
1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
  #65
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the plastic bubble
Posts: 8,912

nuthinupmysleeve is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1973 View Post
For Chinese customers, Buy USA or European is a reality in the making. They want something they can't have, as opposed to customers in the US who want a cheaper option, no matter where it's made.
I'm trying to draw a real distinction between craft made and assembly line made. For example, an assembly line made instrument from the USA or China will likely use pretty much the same process and, assuming similar quality of materials, will get similar quality instruments.

If a Chinese customer wants to pay more for a "made in the USA" assembly-line instrument, that is their choice, but I think they are foolish if they think it means necessarily better quality.

Quote:
Therefore, it will continue to be in demand based on supply vs demand.
A Lexus and Toyota generally are made the same way. One has a higher perceived value, but much of the difference is ornamental. There are some real differences in this analogy, so maybe it's not as straightforward, but the point I'm making is yes, people are buying perception of quality and not necessarily quality.

I recommend someone buy from a local small yield luthier for that same or similar amount of money, I think you'll get a better instrument than a mass produced Gibson, and you will be doing more IMHO to help the US economy.
#66
1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
  #66
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the plastic bubble
Posts: 8,912

nuthinupmysleeve is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome View Post
They are trying to tread a thin line between profitability and failure.
I understand, and things are worth what people want to pay. I personally think people pay insane amounts of money for assembly-line instruments regardless of the name on the headstock. I understand they are fighting for their survival, but I don't understand how they can justify $4k for an assembly line instrument... when you can spend the same/similar money and buy something made for you.

I don't know what they solution is, but maybe I'm one of the minority who feel this way, so they can continue to get these insane prices.

It's even worse in the solid body electric world. It's a block of freakin' wood at best, if it's even solid wood... and the sound comes from the pickups. Acoustic instruments (or even semi hollow) I can see more of an argument, but a solidbody for $3k? Are the pickups made of gold?

Quote:
But again, you couldn't buy a Martin for under $1500 in the old days, and now they have models under $1k.
Check out these insane prices:
Gibson Guitar prices

These are almost as bad:
Martin guitar prices

I've played a lot of instruments, BTW, I'm not a neophyte.

Read this:
Violinists can’t tell the difference between Stradivarius violins and new ones : Not Exactly Rocket Science

...if people can't tell the difference between a priceless stradivarius vs. a new one, do you really think somehow you'll be able to do a blind test and pick out that solid body gibson you paid $4k for against a $500 guitar with the same pickups and through the same amp? Really? Tell it to the violin experts.
#67
1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
  #67
Lives for gear
 
CJ1973's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,288

CJ1973 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
If a Chinese customer wants to pay more for a "made in the USA" assembly-line instrument, that is their choice, but I think they are foolish if they think it means necessarily better quality.

I recommend someone buy from a local small yield luthier for that same or similar amount of money, I think you'll get a better instrument than a mass produced Gibson, and you will be doing more IMHO to help the US economy.
Totally agree with you on the thought process and the 'common sense' approach. It makes sense too and I wish more folks use your analogy.

Here is the thing though.. the world is materialistic and is image focussed. A recent example is the 'Tutors' in Hongkong. It's not about their brain capacity, but about their image and marketing that kids think is cool to go learn from. Go figure!

Traditionally, as you can appreciate, Asia (East and North other than N.Korea) have been very much image based, hence the 'lets make the eyes bigger', 'lets go blonde' etc. So purely for that, I can see folks in masses jumping on a bandwagon on "Made in USA" if marketed in a friendly non-agressive way. Do you know that one of the biggest selling cars in China right now is Buick? Yes the 2012 Buick. Why? Because apparently in the 50s, a Chinese Emperor had one and now that the folks have $ to spend on American, they go out and have one of those! It's strange but it's what it is, considering Buick is a Buick in USA and nothing else... and yes, the Chinese market did save Buick from falling apart. Ofcourse we are talking about "Essential Need" in a Car vs "Want" in a guitar but what bridges the gap closer between need and want in the case of a manufacturer is the Volume. China and Asia have over 1.5Bil people. 5 times USA. It's a huge market for goods made in USA that have that American stamp.
#68
1st December 2012
Old 1st December 2012
  #68
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,873

kats is offline
Well if you see how this years LP's are being made - I think all Gibsons up to 2011 will be worth something.

They can't even source the correct woods anymore
#69
2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
  #69
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 14,460

John Eppstein is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post

Read this:
Violinists can’t tell the difference between Stradivarius violins and new ones : Not Exactly Rocket Science

...if people can't tell the difference between a priceless stradivarius vs. a new one, do you really think somehow you'll be able to do a blind test and pick out that solid body gibson you paid $4k for against a $500 guitar with the same pickups and through the same amp? Really? Tell it to the violin experts.
AHEM! This has been discussed before, but that "test" was utter BS in so many ways. I'm not going to go into a whole lot of detail right now (it's very late at night), but:

The test was not performed under realistic playing conditions.

The artificial conditions did not reflect how the sound of the instrument melds with an ensemble

Tests conducted under artificial conditions such as this will cause people to second guess themselves.

Auditioning an instrument under these conditions will frequently cause a musician to arrive at an evaluation of the instrument that would be at odds with his decision were he allowed to play the instrument over a period of time in real conditions.
#70
2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
  #70
Lives for gear
 
kennybro's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,206

kennybro is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Read this:
Violinists can’t tell the difference between Stradivarius violins and new ones : Not Exactly Rocket Science

...if people can't tell the difference between a priceless stradivarius vs. a new one, do you really think somehow you'll be able to do a blind test and pick out that solid body gibson you paid $4k for against a $500 guitar with the same pickups and through the same amp? Really? Tell it to the violin experts.
I've been following this debate for decades. It's legit, and not the first well-conducted (no pun) test. Unless a violinist is intimately familiar with the particular instrument, it's impossible to distinguish old from new, $5M from $20k.

The point of the experiments are that if the differences are so subtle that you need to spend weeks playing the instrument in an orchestra and a wide variety of situations to be able to tell the difference (an impossible test, so it's safe to make the claim) the differences are not worth 100 times the cost.

It's become very clear that vintage Strads and Guarneri cost a lot because they are old and rare, not because they sound or play better. Not to take anything away. A lot of things are worth a million bucks because they are old and rare.

I generally feel the same way about guitars. Blindfold me, put a few Bursts or mid 50's Goldtops in my hands and then switch them out with a few really well done relics (maybe not even Gibsons), and it's impossible to definitively and consistently pick out the real deals. Been there, done it, and I can't. Generally, you can't get the patina right, but this is blindfold. And I've seen a few patina's that looked very correct.

It's kind of sad though. I like the mystery and mythology of the whole thing, and hate to see it get debunked, but it is what it is. Some things should not be tested. What's the point of proving that old violins have nothing consistently and definably special? Who does that serve?
#71
2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
  #71
GS Community Manager
 
Whitecat's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Surrey / London

Whitecat is offline
#72
2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
  #72
Lives for gear
 
carlheinz's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: S.California
Posts: 1,181

carlheinz is offline
Only time will tell .The people who have the the desire to pay top dollar for 50's bursts will die off IMO.The newer generations will want different things in general will buy items where the bubble hasn't blown out of wack in the pricing.
__________________
#73
2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
  #73
Lives for gear
 
CJ1973's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,288

CJ1973 is offline
When one goes through a socialist change (some argue it's needed to reduce the debt) pricing points stay low and flat across the board, and folks go for something that works and is practical. However, the reality is that socialist thoughts also have a cap and once savings go up, it all turns into capitalist.
The idea, just like gold and diamonds, is to hold on to assets through a socialist period and watch it blow up once it hits the other side of the tunnel.
#74
2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
  #74
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the plastic bubble
Posts: 8,912

nuthinupmysleeve is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
AHEM! This has been discussed before, but that "test" was utter BS in so many ways.
You've essentially proved the point. We would have all thought previously that the difference would have been night and day to a world class violinist... all they would need to do is play it themselves. The fact that it wasn't immediately apparent in these limited circumstances says something incredibly significant.

There might be scenarios where an expert can tell the difference in a double blind test, BTW. That wouldn't surprise me. But for reasons that are already obvious, the above study really did surprise me.
#75
2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
  #75
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the plastic bubble
Posts: 8,912

nuthinupmysleeve is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
It's kind of sad though. I like the mystery and mythology of the whole thing, and hate to see it get debunked, but it is what it is. Some things should not be tested. What's the point of proving that old violins have nothing consistently and definably special? Who does that serve?
I share your sentiment to an extent... really love the mystery. There are guitars I own that I swear I play better than others... might be subtle differences in action or setup, who knows? I don't need to understand why...

On the other hand I like how science can debunk some things that lead to elitist behavior... whether that's the difference in preamps or the difference in instruments. I will still maintain the belief that my tele is special, even if it's only special to me.
#76
2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
  #76
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,476

Bill@WelcomeHome is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
On the other hand I like how science can debunk some things......
I too love science over voodoo but:
Don't forget that scientists told us that 16 bits was good enough, and brick wall limiting converters in those early days of digital recording was what we needed, and in the 60s that solid state amps sounded the same as tube amps, and that it took the ears of many recording engineers (and others...) to change their minds.... so if you think you can hear a difference between A and B, maybe there IS a difference, even if no one can explain it... today.

Also don't discount the listening environment. My mastering setup revealed a lot that could not be heard on various small/home recordists setups, simply because it was a high quality full-range system in a well treated space. And when making live recordings the ambient noise may neutralize the difference between very high end converters and entry-level converters... making it very affordable to build a multichannel live recording system.
#77
2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
  #77
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,873

kats is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
I've been following this debate for decades. It's legit, and not the first well-conducted (no pun) test. Unless a violinist is intimately familiar with the particular instrument, it's impossible to distinguish old from new, $5M from $20k.
Umm no, John is right. Every engineer I know worth his salt laughed at these "tests".
#78
2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
  #78
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,873

kats is offline
Quote:
"A less respectful view of Dr. Fritz’s study is offered by the violinist Earl Carlyss, a longtime member of the Juilliard String Quartet. “It’s a totally inappropriate way of finding out the quality of these instruments,” he said. The auditions, he noted, took place in a hotel room, but violinists always need to assess how an instrument will project in a concert hall. He likened the test to trying to compare a Ford and a Ferrari in a Walmart parking lot.

“The modern instruments are very easy to play and sound good to your ear, but what made the old instruments great was their power in a hall,” he said."
Well conducted, indeed.

In the real world they stick out almost like a sore thumb. But let's not let the facts get in the way of the race to the bottom.
#79
3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
  #79
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the plastic bubble
Posts: 8,912

nuthinupmysleeve is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
Well conducted, indeed.

In the real world they stick out almost like a sore thumb. But let's not let the facts get in the way of the race to the bottom.
There is only one set of "facts" here kats. You are welcome to coordinate another study if you think you can show a different result. I actually believe there are other scenarios where people can tell the difference. Say, inclusion of sense of smell.

But the fact that experts cannot tell the difference in a case like this shows something significant. It doesn't show there are no difference in normal circumstances. It does show that the differences are not huge. I have heard people say an old guitar "blows away" another guitar. You would think a priceless strad blows away a relatively cheap new instrument... So much so you could easily tell in every situation.
#80
3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
  #80
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the plastic bubble
Posts: 8,912

nuthinupmysleeve is offline
I had one other thought... remember there is a huge infrastructure with a vested interest in continuing the mystique around "vintage" instruments, whether it's guitars or violins. It's the same with the boutique audio interfaces. These people will always fight any studies that show there is no difference, or studies that show the difference is not significant. That doesn't make them wrong, but it's something to remember when you hear people rail against studies like this.
#81
3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
  #81
Lives for gear
 
kennybro's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,206

kennybro is offline
Put me behind the wheel of a Ford, and then a Ferrari (my former studio owner had two Testarossas that he parked in the drum area. I drove them often), in a Walmart (why Walmart?) parking lot, and I'll tell you which is which in .25 seconds, and exactly why the T handles better than the Ford.

It's easy to make calls of superiority with the weight of hundreds of years of righteousness on your side. And it's very difficult to accept that maybe the 5 million dollar violin you control through the graces of some elite music trust might not be any better intrinsically than a $10k violin. It's exactly as if someone suddenly declared that they could prove Jackson Pollocks are worth 100 bucks, no more. How would that go, and what would the art world say about it?

Digging solidly into one position or the other in debates where the empirical evidence is nebulous at best is called belief or opinion, not science. As I said, I respect and value belief and opinion, but I also respect ontology and epistemological certainty.
#82
3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
  #82
Gear Head
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN USA
Posts: 42

cwillms is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Sound View Post
I own some Chinese made instruments and electronics of various brands. Most of them are good bargains, but I'd never say their quality is anywhere near where most American or German products are. Exactly which $500 Chinese guitar is on par with a Gibson? I'd like to know and save myself some money.
This is correct. I've played a number of very decent Chinese knockoffs, even recorded with them. But then I pick up my "real" Gibson/Fender and there's no question which is quality through and through. The question was about collect-ability... A modern Gibson may or may not be a collectors item but Chinese knockoffs will never be even worth the $300 you paid for them and the Epiphone hardware will have rusted out by then.
#83
4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
  #83
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,873

kats is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
There is only one set of "facts" here kats. You are welcome to coordinate another study if you think you can show a different result. I actually believe there are other scenarios where people can tell the difference. Say, inclusion of sense of smell.

But the fact that experts cannot tell the difference in a case like this shows something significant. It doesn't show there are no difference in normal circumstances. It does show that the differences are not huge. I have heard people say an old guitar "blows away" another guitar. You would think a priceless strad blows away a relatively cheap new instrument... So much so you could easily tell in every situation.
Completely wrong. That's like saying because I can't tell the difference between good and bad single malt mixed with pepsi proves that the differences are minute.

Give me a break...
#84
4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
  #84
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the plastic bubble
Posts: 8,912

nuthinupmysleeve is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
Completely wrong. That's like saying because I can't tell the difference between good and bad single malt mixed with pepsi proves that the differences are minute.
I really don't even understand what you're arguing. Again, if you would have asked most musicians, given the circumstances of the test, whether these experts would be able tell the difference, I think most of us would have answered hell yes.

Some people believe believe everyone else is subject to confirmation bias, but somehow they are immune. It makes me chuckle! So many people understand so little about how the mind works.
#85
4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
  #85
Lives for gear
 
kennybro's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,206

kennybro is offline
One huge problem with acceptance of test results like this is that people who consider themselves to be elite experts see this kind of thing as a personal slap in the face. The fact that a person might suggest they could be wrong tags that person as a clueless idiot. No more info needed. End game.

Like "Every engineer I know worth his salt laughed at these "tests"." The fact that some didn't accept the results confirms saltiness, while the fact that another might consider the results valid confirms low sodium. It's a self fulfilling and self-affirming process, very akin to religious affirmation. Impossible to argue with. But how many of these salty engineers are violinists? How many every held or have even ever seen a Strad?

I make no such assumptions. I try to observe reality around me and make decisions based on information that I can personally confirm or at least have a valid reason to trust.

I've never read through a test that confirmed easy and consistent and faultless identification of Strads vs. Cheaper, well-made violins. But I've read through a few that were unable to come to solid conclusions, strongly suggesting that the differences are not all that cut and dry, and very possibly strongly subject to bias confirmation.
#86
4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
  #86
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the plastic bubble
Posts: 8,912

nuthinupmysleeve is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
One huge problem with acceptance of test results like this is that people who consider themselves to be elite experts see this kind of thing as a personal slap in the face.
SO true. We all are faced with data that truly flies against our preconceived notions. Some of us dismiss it outright, some of us take it as another data point, some of us change our minds. Some people change their minds too quickly based on a tiny thread of data.

A truly scientific approach is to change your mind when faced with solid data. We humans often to the opposite... further our resolve and ignore the data. Maybe it's because we are sometimes highly invested in a particular idea. Maybe it's because it's no fun to have been proven wrong! Instead we ignore data that doesn't conform to our beliefs yet search out data that confirms. Humans are just hilarious when it comes down to it.

Quote:
Like "Every engineer I know worth his salt laughed at these "tests"."
I think it's hilarious how we even call ourselves "engineers." Most of us have very little education. How many of us have studied acoustics? How many of us could build a console? The field of engineering is very different from us audio "engineers." I would say every true Engineer worth his/her salt would have read the study and not come to any fast conclusions, but would have found it very interesting and worthy of further study.

Quote:
I try to observe reality around me and make decisions based on information that I can personally confirm or at least have a valid reason to trust.
Sounds very sensible.
#87
4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
  #87
Lives for gear
 
noah330's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,172

noah330 is offline
Can anyone here please point me to the Chinese guitar that is as good as one of my original Bursts? I read about tons of them every day on the internet but have never been able to actually find the $700 import that "kills a real Burst".
#88
4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
  #88
Gear addict
 
Mighty_Zoltan's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Athens GA (Originally London England)
Posts: 300

Mighty_Zoltan is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 View Post
Can anyone here please point me to the Chinese guitar that is as good as one of my original Bursts? I read about tons of them every day on the internet but have never been able to actually find the $700 import that "kills a real Burst".
It's just people trying to justify their purchases. Which is fine. I've owned a Chinese Epiphone recently (sold it last year). For the money ($380 if I recall?) it was absolutely great, and I'd definitely buy another to knock about on (I'm currently considering getting the Crestwood reissue). Was it comparable in any way to my 1968 Epiphone Casino or my custom shop Gibson Les Paul Jr? No bloody way. Not even close. They feel like toys in comparison.
#89
4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
  #89
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the plastic bubble
Posts: 8,912

nuthinupmysleeve is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 View Post
Can anyone here please point me to the Chinese guitar that is as good as one of my original Bursts? I read about tons of them every day on the internet but have never been able to actually find the $700 import that "kills a real Burst".
Depends on the criteria. My $600 epiphone masterbilt all solid wood acoustic sounds to me as good as any sub $2k assembly line guitar I've played, including older/classic models.

I would enjoy seeing someone like you do a double blind test and try to pick out a classic solidbody electric vs. a new one. I might learn you can indeed pick it out! Or... you might not. Either way, it would be a fun test.
#90
4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
  #90
Lives for gear
 
kennybro's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,206

kennybro is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 View Post
Can anyone here please point me to the Chinese guitar that is as good as one of my original Bursts? I read about tons of them every day on the internet but have never been able to actually find the $700 import that "kills a real Burst".
Never heard of it, although I've played a few handbuilt relic bursts that felt like the real deal. Blindfolded, I'm conviced nobody could tell unless youwere intimately familiar with a particualr burst. The prices on those started at about $4K.

Those Chinese clone guitars are total unplayable junk, not even anywhere near a decent Epi Paul. I used to get them in the shop for setup, and never saw one that would even get close to playable. Most of the necks are badly twisted. Fret work is a disgrace, and fit & finish is a joke. Pups sound like 60's Japan and electronics sound scratchy and feel cheap. Total crap.

I've played some damn good Epi's though.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Topic:
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Analizemodmusic / Low End Theory
10
1nation / So much gear, so little time!
124
IsRael Musiq / So much gear, so little time!
70
Mikem / So much gear, so little time!
28
rtprods / Rap + Hip Hop engineering & production
16

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.