Acoustic guitar

[cinealta]

Taylor rosewood.

[electricity17]

It's a matter of taste. Go play a bunch of guitars and see what sounds good, there's a lot of variance from model to model. I like Gibsons myself, they're great as rhythm guitars and for accompanying singers, I own a Songwriter that blew me away. I would also look at Martin and maybe Taylor, sounds like time is a factor but Collings and Bourgeois have a good reputation as well if you can find some to demo. Also it's helpful to take somebody along who can also play so that you can listen to it sitting across from them, different perspective/sound than when you're playing it yourself.

[indie folk guy]

have you tried setting up the guitar?

like cutting bone nut and saddle and doing fine tuning adjustments to string height and intonation?

have you tried levelling, dressing, crowning, and polishing the frets?

do you use a Peterson strobe tuner to set your intonation?

I don't really think that you have to upgrade to a much more expensive guitar to get a great recording. I've played many of the import breedloves and they aren't bad. Even a more expensive guitar will benefit from a proper setup and I reccomend it.

Personally I record/perform with a few high end Epiphones Texan and Masterbilt AJ500R and before/after I had put the setup work into them they can hold their own easily against any guitar in the $2k-$3k range.

And I would say that there are a lot of different tastes for acoustic guitars first and foremost you have to think about materials used and construction of the instrument as these will all influence the sound. There will be different advantages to different body styles ie jumbo, dreadnaught, 00, 000, advanced jumbo aka sloped shoulder, and so on. How the bracing is set, and so many variables can influence the end result in sound, intonation, and playability.

Spruce vs Cedar for the top, solid woods are always better than laminate and get better with age both are great usually cedar tends to be a little warmer/darker sounding (of course every tree was created different so ymmv)

Mahogany vs Rosewood vs Maple for back and sides again solid woods are preferred(mahogany has a pretty well balanced sound with a nice midrange, rosewood has a great deep sound nice lows and nice highs, maple has warmth but the low end is tight and crisp the mids and highs have a nice sparkle to them and they cut through anything and as before all wood is different YMMV and obviously there are other tonewoods that can be used)

But no matter what guitar you get a proper setup is paramount to getting the best tone. I suggest that everyone uses a bone nut and bone saddle, I like tusq bridge pins. Finding the right strings is also very important I like phosphor bronze from the following companies DR, John Pearse, D'Addario, and SIT. Picking the right gauge can really make a difference in how your guitar responds as well. Some guitars prefer 11's some prefer 12's some prefer 13's. Best thing you can do is experiment.

It will cost you a bit but having the Buzz Feiten setup done to any guitar is about the best money you can spend, but it can be hard to justify on a lower price guitar.

Something else to consider is what if your mics, preamps, room, mic technique/placement aren't right for getting the tone you are looking for? Not trying to be mean just throwing out some food for thought.

There are a lot of variables to consider and the start is always the source/performer, the room, then everything else.

[DanGo]

It is a matter of taste and of the player: different picking and strumming styles will yield a different balance of tones from the same guitar.

That said, for electronic pop music, you're not going to have as much space for guitar as you would in a production with acoustic drums, for example. So, you want a guitar that has a balanced, non-hyped mid-range.

My advice, because I do a fair amount of electronic music with real guitars, is to look at the atypical Martin I bought: a Martin JC-40. Jumbo cutaway. Unlike other Martins I've owned (which had lots of bass and treble and poorly represented mids), this guitar is solid in the mids and sounds good with a pick or fingers. It runs about 2-3k and is not that common, though I think you can get em at Elderly Instruments...

As a side note, I sold two Martin guitars to get this one and it's my only acoustic now. I don't regret selling the others. You can throw any mic and mic position at it and it just sounds good. Big time-saver!

[indie folk guy]

Originally Posted by DanGo

It is a matter of taste and of the player: different picking and strumming styles will yield a different balance of tones from the same guitar.

That said, for electronic pop music, you're not going to have as much space for guitar as you would in a production with acoustic drums, for example. So, you want a guitar that has a balanced, non-hyped mid-range.

My advice, because I do a fair amount of electronic music with real guitars, is to look at the atypical Martin I bought: a Martin JC-40. Jumbo cutaway. Unlike other Martins I've owned (which had lots of bass and treble and poorly represented mids), this guitar is solid in the mids and sounds good with a pick or fingers. It runs about 2-3k and is not that common, though I think you can get em at Elderly Instruments...

As a side note, I sold two Martin guitars to get this one and it's my only acoustic now. I don't regret selling the others. You can throw any mic and mic position at it and it just sounds good. Big time-saver!

I'd say for a dense mix a great choice would be a jumbo with maple back/sides such an SJ200, of course there are many more affordable alternatives from Guild, Washburn, Epiphone, etc. But that's my preference it may not always be the best answer.

A guitar is a very personalized thing I don't particularly like the idea of a studio providing guitars for clients because people prefer different sounds, feels, etc. What is wrong with recording a performers guitar that they selected to convey their own music?

I say this as one that runs a studio and owns about a dozen guitars (I build and repair guitars as well).

[newguy1]

Thanks for the quick answers. I never would have thought jumbo for dense mixes, I'll be sure to try out several including the two recommended.

Originally Posted by indie folk guy

A guitar is a very personalized thing I don't particularly like the idea of a studio providing guitars for clients because people prefer different sounds, feels, etc. What is wrong with recording a performers guitar that they selected to convey their own music?

I'm a new school pop producer. . as in the artist/songwriter is sent to me by the label/publisher, and we either write to an instrumental I've already done or write a song that I then perform and produce every single other part of. So in essence I'm the artist for every part of the song except the vocal, and I need my personal guitar that fits with the rest of my sound as quickly and cleanly as possible. Labels are essentially paying me to lend my sound to their artist.

[Winny Pooh]

An OM sized guitar is pretty balanced. Or if a larger guitar then stick to mahogany as rosewood has these missing mids at times.

[newguy1]

Originally Posted by DanGo

It runs about 2-3k and is not that common, though I think you can get em at Elderly Instruments...

Just looked up Elderly. I had assumed it was in LA given your location, where I could swing by and try it out. How strongly do you feel this is the best instrument for the job? You've made it sound so ideal! Not sure about buying an acoustic instrument without being able to try it. They differ so much even within the same make and model. .

Originally Posted by Winny Pooh

An OM sized guitar is pretty balanced. Or if a larger guitar then stick to mahogany as rosewood has these missing mids at times.

Nice, my rosewood Breedlove indeed lacks mids when recorded. Although the Martin DanGo recommends is rosewood.

Any other tips like this that will help narrow in on the options?

[indie folk guy]

it really depends I've played guitar for about 25 years every piece of wood is different. While there are plenty of stereotypes available for woods, models of guitars bottom line is they are all different you have to play them and listen for yourself.

My rosewood AJ500R is very balanced it has a great deep low end, a fantastic detailed mid range, and nice sparkly highs. With the thin satin finish it really has a nice open, old school sound that works great for a lot of the acoustic stuff I play.

Sorry I didn't realize you were the player that makes it a little different, I will say I own a dozen guitars for my various music ventures I may say that having a variety of well setup and contrasting instruments may be the easiest way to accomplish your goals. No one instrument will really do it all well, likewise no mic flatters every source, yada yada.

If I were you I'd definitely look at Gibsons to my ear they offer the best balanced tone. They aren't overly boomy or sizzly which I think lends it to be a better rounded instrument.

Some of my favorites are the J45 and SJ200.

If you want a more budget concious option, or maybe consider doing a few different guitars.
The Epiphone Masterbilt line is a very underrated but incredible acoustic guitar there are different tonewoods and body styles to choose from so they probably have one perfect for your needs I'd search for an AJ500M in your shoes to try and get a one guitar to do it all.
To boot they are all solid woods (unheard of in this price point), come stock with Grover tuners, and come stock with bone nuts and saddles.

[Winny Pooh]

I would not look at gibsons unless you could find an amazing new j45. Never buy an acoustic guitar sight unseen. You can chance it with electric basses & guitars but never acoustics.

[indie folk guy]

Originally Posted by Winny Pooh

I would not look at gibsons unless you could find an amazing new j45. Never buy an acoustic guitar sight unseen. You can chance it with electric basses & guitars but never acoustics.

I never encouraged the OP to buy sight unseen to clarify I wouldn't buy any instrument without really playing it first that is a recipe for potential disapointment/buyer's remorse.

Some other suggestions for nice quality acoustics you may come across:
Eastman
Larivee
Santa Cruz
Collings

[brill bedroom]

Tell you what, I have a couple of high end Taylor's and a Gibson J-200 that seems to be good luck for songwriting, but sometimes I have had better luck at recording a $200 Yamaha FG something or other that I got to keep at work.

[DanGo]

[QUOTE=newguy1;8301115]Just looked up Elderly. I had assumed it was in LA given your location, where I could swing by and try it out. How strongly do you feel this is the best instrument for the job? You've made it sound so ideal! Not sure about buying an acoustic instrument without being able to try it. They differ so much even within the same make and model. .




Nice, my rosewood Breedlove indeed lacks mids when recorded. Although the Martin DanGo recommends is rosewood.

Yes, it's rosewood. I don't want to suggest you buy the JC-40 sight unseen, but the guitar surprised me: I'd never have thought Martin or a jumbo could sound like this. I bought mine in LA used from Westwood Music and Marc over there had me play around 6 guitars--all fairly different. This one just spoke to me. Sounds silly, but yeah, it really did feel just right. If you're in LA, go to Westwood Music and ask them about the JC-40. Tell Marc or Jonah that Dan Goldberg sent you... Or, what the heck, I'm like 5 minutes away from the store... Drop me a line if they don't have the JC-40 and I'll meet you there and you can try mine (and maybe I can pick your brain a bit about some of your work in exchange). --Dan

[Rascal Audio]

Two guitars that consistently sound great to me (in the hands of a capable player, that is): Gibson J45 and Larrivee D9/D10.

As stated before, every guitar is different, however, and they sound different still the more they're played.

Joel

[swafford]

Originally Posted by newguy1

I need to fairly quickly purchase a new acoustic guitar for recording pop music. I've had several productions sold to artists recently with acoustic guitar in them and my current Breedlove (a cheap one, not american made) just isnt cutting it, it doesn't keep great tune up and down the neck and I don't want to waste time with it anymore. Budget is around 2-3k.

I know this is an extremely subjective question, but is there a known acoustic guitar thats great for this purpose? Just a great down-the-middle sound for electronic pop music? Or is this a dumb question and it's entirely a matter of taste?

I have a great recording chain and technique, I'm only interested in information on the guitars themselves.

Used Bourgeois Slope D, spruce top, mahogany sides: well balanced, tight bottom, forward mids and delightful highs. Great for strumming, flatpicking and has a slightly wider neck then most dreads so it can be fingerpicked fairly easily.

[jmikeperkins]

There is of course no right answer as everyone has their own favorites. I absolutely love vintage (1950's - 1970's made in Kalamazoo) Gibson J45's, SJ's (the natural finish one was known for a time as the Country Western model) and Hummingbirds. All 3 of these are very similar. The new ones from Montana are pretty but I don't think they sound as good as the old ones made at the original factory in Kalamazoo. Although harder to find, the vintage ones don't sell for that much more than the new ones. If you are looking for that Rolling Stones acoustic sound from Wild Horses, Exile on Main Street or Angie that's what you need. Given the choice, I would always buy a used acoustic because good wood will improve with age as it dries out. I think it takes 20 years or more for an acoustic to sound it's best.

[PdotDdot]

I think Gibson J45 is your best bet. Even new ones record well. They are easier to record than Martins (generally). If you can find an older one great but that will likely cost more than your budget. I think a J45 is perhaps the only acoustic I might buy sight unseen because I've never played a bad one - just some are better than others.

Look at Collings, Martins as well and there are many great guitars out there in your range.

[mischultz]

If you're in SoCal, you might get in touch with LA Guitar Sales and Buffalo Brothers. One solid Saturday with two shops that know acoustics well and have a great selection should tell you most of what you need to know. I'd also suggest that the ergonomics of the thing are important: a body that's comfortable and a neck that feels right in the hand. If you're going to make a lot of music with the instrument, with any instrument really, it should feel as though it fits you. Neck shape, size and width can make or break your joy and it'll show in the music.

Michael

Originally Posted by newguy1

Just looked up Elderly. I had assumed it was in LA given your location, where I could swing by and try it out. How strongly do you feel this is the best instrument for the job? You've made it sound so ideal! Not sure about buying an acoustic instrument without being able to try it. They differ so much even within the same make and model. .




Nice, my rosewood Breedlove indeed lacks mids when recorded. Although the Martin DanGo recommends is rosewood.

Any other tips like this that will help narrow in on the options?

[kerouac]

If I were you I'd hunt down a local (and used) Taylor from the 300 or 400 series as well as a cedar-topped Seagull. Two different tones, two great guitars.

[77James]

I've got to throw in my two cents. I love the sound of my Lowden Guitars. They are just so even and articulate so well. A lot of guitars sound great finger picked but when you strum them, you here the chord but not each individual note. With Lowdens, I don't know if it's the wood they use or their bracing or just great overall design but even when you get on it, you hear every note. Their signature O series, is a unique Shaped jumbo, the S series is a small body and the F is somewhere in between and they all sound huge and clear as a bell. They record amazingly well. You can't go wrong with a Lowden. They are more than you said you wanted to spend, but maybe you could find a deal on a used one. Incredible guitars!
All The Best!
77

[Nick Hamilton]

Originally Posted by PdotDdot

I think Gibson J45 is your best bet. Even new ones record well. They are easier to record than Martins (generally). If you can find an older one great but that will likely cost more than your budget. I think a J45 is perhaps the only acoustic I might buy sight unseen because I've never played a bad one - just some are better than others.

Look at Collings, Martins as well and there are many great guitars out there in your range.

I have inherited my Dad's J45 sunburst from 1965 and when it has a nice new set of strings on it, it really sings.

The really nice thing is it now has some natural resonances and sustain that have come with age that give certain notes and chords a real magic.

He bought it in 1969 used for ......$95.

[rkopald]

Originally Posted by newguy1

I need to fairly quickly purchase a new acoustic guitar for recording pop music. I've had several productions sold to artists recently with acoustic guitar in them and my current Breedlove (a cheap one, not american made) just isnt cutting it, it doesn't keep great tune up and down the neck and I don't want to waste time with it anymore. Budget is around 2-3k.

I know this is an extremely subjective question, but is there a known acoustic guitar thats great for this purpose? Just a great down-the-middle sound for electronic pop music? Or is this a dumb question and it's entirely a matter of taste?

I have a great recording chain and technique, I'm only interested in information on the guitars themselves.

Whoever wrote the advice about the OM/OO style gtr is right on the money.

Try calling the folks at Santa Cruz. They put out great mic friendly guitars. If you're in Cali they might even hook you up for the time squeeze.

Their guitars eat microphones.

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by indie folk guy

have you tried setting up the guitar?

like cutting bone nut and saddle and doing fine tuning adjustments to string height and intonation?

have you tried levelling, dressing, crowning, and polishing the frets?

do you use a Peterson strobe tuner to set your intonation?

I don't really think that you have to upgrade to a much more expensive guitar to get a great recording. I've played many of the import breedloves and they aren't bad. Even a more expensive guitar will benefit from a proper setup and I reccomend it.

I agree with this post - except the part about setting intonation with a strobe tuner - there's no intonation adjustment on most acoustic guitars, but if the instrument is not properly adjusted, or if it has substantial fret wear, your intonation will indeed suffer.

Assuming it's adjusted properly, there's no reason why your Breedlove shouldn't play in tune, unless the manufacturer located the saddle in the wrong place. I seriously doubt that's the case. They're good guitars - even the imports.

I just find it perplexing that you are so frustrated with an ostensibly good guitar that you're ready to spend 2 or 3 grand for another instrument. If you said that you didn't like the tone of it, or the way it sounds on a recording, that's a different issue entirely, but your specific complaint was intonation issues.

In proper adjustment, your Breedlove should play in tune just as well as a Martin or a Taylor. If you're just itching to buy a new guitar, then I think we all understand, and there's nothing wrong with that. But if intonation issues with your current guitar is the reason, spend fifty or a hundred bucks for setup work and some minor fret work and put that money into something else.

One other thing - not all guitar techs are created equal. It's well worth going out of your way to find an expert - someone who is a true craftsman, even for minor work. There are more hack repairmen than good ones, so beware. If you don't know a good luthier, ask around. The good ones receive almost legendary status among their customer base.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by rkopald

Try calling the folks at Santa Cruz. They put out great mic friendly guitars. If you're in Cali they might even hook you up for the time squeeze. ..

I have a custom made Santa Cruz based on the model F but with the Engelwood Spruce top, and a maple body and cut-away. Killer guitar. I was looking at Collings and Olsen and Goodall and the USA Breedloves (like the Ed Gerhard myrtle wood model..) Being a big David Crosby fan, and the Cros having recently (at the time) become a user, I followed along and I'm glad that I did.

[hop.sing]

If you are looking for a well balanced guitar with good mids, not to boomy lows and sweet treble, I can recomend the Martin 000-15. It records great and is not very expensive for a Martin. Make sure to play a few, because some are great and some are just good, but that is true for every guitar purchase.

[kerouac]

If we're talking high-end than I've gotta throw my vote in with Collings. The single best guitar I've ever played was a Collings OM series and some day I will own that exact guitar.

[mcintalker]

I got a gig turning 23 very rough tracks of a songwriter's demos into a CD (it was to be a gift to the girl singer-songwriter from her Dad to reinspire her creativity). I got to work on it as long as I needed to, to turn it into a
"finished project". I had consistently used a stereo pair of AKG 414b/uls on all the acoustic guitars which included a mixed assortment of brands, models and woods; my Martin D28, her's or her friends' Yamaha, Takamine, or Taylor 214-314-414 and my own Taylor 514, a Fender Springhill SC35 maple and a Galloup LG1 ( a very big sounding rosewood great for solo guitar tracks).
As I listened and created arrangements where there weren't any (these were all quick sketches of new, sometimes unfinished songs), every track with my old (ca 2000?)Taylor 514 -cedar top+mahogany back-sides really just stuck out, regardless of being strummed, fingerpicked or played finger-style.
Now I could assume that it might be that is exactly what I ( you might prefer something else and have to conduct your own shootout)wanted to hear guitar-wise. Maybe because it was played by me with lots more -decades! -experience than those youngsters, in that room, with those mics and maybe that IS what made it sound so good, but I really think that it is that cedar responds so fast and with marvelous detail and that mahogany gives you a really nice blend across the spectrum.
I have had to sell most of my gear and instruments and you can bet that, that will be the first acoustic I try to find the perfect replacement for!

[DanGo]

Originally Posted by hop.sing

If you are looking for a well balanced guitar with good mids, not to boomy lows and sweet treble, I can recomend the Martin 000-15. It records great and is not very expensive for a Martin. Make sure to play a few, because some are great and some are just good, but that is true for every guitar purchase.

Mileage may vary. I had a 000-15 and it looked great and sounded nice fingerstyle, but I use a pick and it got very thin when I dug in. I sold it and a Martin 12 string dread to get the JC40. I don't miss either...

[indie folk guy]

Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato

I agree with this post - except the part about setting intonation with a strobe tuner - there's no intonation adjustment on most acoustic guitars, but if the instrument is not properly adjusted, or if it has substantial fret wear, your intonation will indeed suffer.

Assuming it's adjusted properly, there's no reason why your Breedlove shouldn't play in tune, unless the manufacturer located the saddle in the wrong place. I seriously doubt that's the case. They're good guitars - even the imports.

I just find it perplexing that you are so frustrated with an ostensibly good guitar that you're ready to spend 2 or 3 grand for another instrument. If you said that you didn't like the tone of it, or the way it sounds on a recording, that's a different issue entirely, but your specific complaint was intonation issues.

In proper adjustment, your Breedlove should play in tune just as well as a Martin or a Taylor. If you're just itching to buy a new guitar, then I think we all understand, and there's nothing wrong with that. But if intonation issues with your current guitar is the reason, spend fifty or a hundred bucks for setup work and some minor fret work and put that money into something else.

One other thing - not all guitar techs are created equal. It's well worth going out of your way to find an expert - someone who is a true craftsman, even for minor work. There are more hack repairmen than good ones, so beware. If you don't know a good luthier, ask around. The good ones receive almost legendary status among their customer base.

there are things you can do to intonate acoustics it just requires a bit more work.

When you cut a nut or saddle from a blank for example you can compensate for intonation issues. As I said earlier getting it setup with the Buzz Feiten system essentially does this. Of course finding a good tech to do this type of work isn't cheap. And when you do these tweaks you always check your work with a strobe tuner as it's the most accurate form I know of for tuning harmonics, etc. Many people overlook intonating instruments and this includes your warning of the bad guitar techs/self proclaimed luthiers.

But having intonation issues is most likely going to be one of four things in my opinion in order of importance NUT, SADDLE, FRETS, TUNING MACHINES.

Now since your guitar is a breedlove it obviously isn't old enough for me to jump to the conclusion that upgrading tuning machines will solve your issue.

But a lot of guitars at any price point usually come with poor factory setups. Improperly cut nuts are pretty much the leading cause for intonation issues. I suggest a polished bone nut cut by an experienced luthier. Bone provides imho the best tone and when cut right has a degree of natural lubrication. Make sure the nut is cut to your preferred brand and gauge of string so that the slots get cut with accuracy for your playing style/gear.

Next I'd say the saddle would be the biggest cause of issues as this effects string height, it compensates to a degree on intionation issues, etc.

While not a direct intonation issue in all circumstances depending on the condition of your frets doing a level (setting all the frets to the same plane), dress (recrowning and polishing them all the same) will make the guitar more comfortable to play and can help with intonation to a subtle and sometimes drastic degree. Some things that this work can correct are frets popping out, unsmooth fret edges, fret wear (those little divots in the most played spots of your neck), and so on.

Basically when I do setups for acoustic guitars I either do the Buzz Feiten tuning system which is time consuming and expensive or I switch the stock nut/saddle (usually corian, tusq, or plastic) to bone (and they are individually cut). Usually these hand cut ones are improvements in build and tone from the stock units.

I do fret work, this can vary depending on what's needed. I only mention that this can sometimes not be a drastic help to intonation is because most people's frets are not torn up to hell and back. Minor fret wear is usually acceptable depending on how nit picky you or your listeners are. I'm a huge nit pick so I keep all mine in tip top shape. But you have to be careful with frets because if you do too many levels/dresses you are essentially taking off some fret material everytime. And refret jobs aren't usually cheap or easy.

The other thing I do is make sure the neck is adjusted properly to the gauge of string and playing style of the individual.

Yes I'll agree acoustics aren't as adjustable as most electrics but there are things that can be done to them.