Acoustic guitar

[at4033]

Btw: I'm with you. Listening to someone play while you walk around a bit reveals quite a lot.

[Arthur Stone]

Originally Posted by at4033

No response at all! Just something I always remind myself when I fall in love with a new and expensive guitar.

Apologies. Great advice. I'm fortunate to live a way from the guitar shop and have a thin wallet (currently). I guess as well as tonal discrepancies there is confirmation bias when listening in the shop (and unfamiliar acoustics, etc).

The converse could be true too - a perfect guitar for recording may sound terrible in the shop; my friend bought a Lowden and it took a good six months for it to bed in and sound pristine. Even then I still prefer the Taylor for recording. I know they get a bit of stick from high-end users but that rosewood model sounded special.

[at4033]

Originally Posted by Arthur Stone

The converse could be true too - a perfect guitar for recording may sound terrible in the shop; my friend bought a Lowden and it took a good six months for it to bed in and sound pristine. Even then I still prefer the Taylor for recording. I know they get a bit of stick from high-end users but that rosewood model sounded special.

Exactly right! I've had incredibly good results with a $200 Epi J45 clone. Go figure.

[rolandjuno6]

Some of the early 1970s Alvarez flattops sound very good.

[JRcruz]

Originally Posted by newguy1

i need to fairly quickly purchase a new acoustic guitar for recording pop music. I've had several productions sold to artists recently with acoustic guitar in them and my current breedlove (a cheap one, not american made) just isnt cutting it, it doesn't keep great tune up and down the neck and i don't want to waste time with it anymore. Budget is around 2-3k.

I know this is an extremely subjective question, but is there a known acoustic guitar thats great for this purpose? Just a great down-the-middle sound for electronic pop music? Or is this a dumb question and it's entirely a matter of taste?

I have a great recording chain and technique, i'm only interested in information on the guitars themselves.

santa cruz all the way!

[JRcruz]

I've recently bought a Epiphone JV-500 solid mohogany for $600 and it sound like a 3K guitar. Amazing! I do have a 2k Taylor but it doesn't record well. Too bright for my taste.
My 2 cents.
Peace.
JRcruz

[at4033]

Originally Posted by JRcruz

I do have a 2k Taylor but it doesn't record well. Too bright for my taste. JRcruz

I routinely wrestle with my 1993 810 for that very reason. A star when I jam with friends, but poses real problems when recording. I often string it with Silk & Steel, and find it a nice match. I've also come back to Elixers (as per Taylor spec). Still a bright guitar, but it is a touch less toppy. They seem to take out a bit of the top and slightly soften the attack.

[JRcruz]

Originally Posted by at4033

I routinely wrestle with my 1993 810 for that very reason. A star when I jam with friends, but poses real problems when recording. I often string it with Silk & Steel, and find it a nice match. I've also come back to Elixers (as per Taylor spec). Still a bright guitar, but it is a touch less toppy. They seem to take out a bit of the top and slightly soften the attack.

I've got Elixir nanowebs on my Taylor but it's so bright that it sounds like cymbals.lol

[at4033]

Originally Posted by JRcruz

I've got Elixir nanowebs on my Taylor but it's so bright that it sounds like cymbals.lol

Haha! You should try Martin Silk & Steel.

[dubmunkey]

I've got a takamine and a fender (cd140?). The fender is cheap but a brilliant jam guitar - it just seems so harsh to record up close. I took off my elixirs and replaced with heavy gauge rotos and it still sounds horrible on strummy parts up close. Tried different mics and signal paths, i guess some guitars jam well but are a b*tch to record.

Over the shoulder micing worked better

Am looking at an epiphone j-45 VS 1963 custom shop

[mcintalker]

Originally Posted by at4033

It's probably self-evident, but it bears repeating:

Just because you like the way a guitar sounds when you play it in a shop does not necessarily mean it will record well. The fact of the matter is that more times than I care to remember, beautiful Taylors, Gibsons, Martins, etc. struggled to fix in mixes, whereas "cheap" guitars worked perfectly. That continues to both delight and vex me.

This reminded me of something I read once. Glyn Johns said "the right arrangement mixes itself". I've enjoyed remembering it. Whenever I found myself wrestling with a mix, I would re-examine the parts and find my way to much more workable mix. I've applied it to live bands, as often as to recording. I guess, I use it to examine panning and EQ, too. When I find ways to make things work, it always seems like I've solved an argument. LOL!
I'm right back at the "casting the movie" metaphor! I suppose I can carry this from picking (pun intended) the right guitar, the right mic/pre, EQ, pan, and effects. Doesn't matter if it is a supporting role or the main "star".

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by mcintalker

Earvana is also selling drop in intonated nuts for around $25-$30 on ebay.

There's no such thing as a drop-in nut. The original nut needs to be carefully and surgically removed, and the new one properly fitted and slotted, all by a skilled luthier. Otherwise it will look like a beaver has been gnawing on your nut slot, and your action and intonation will likely be worse.

Because you used the term "drop in", your post kind of implied that this is a do-it-yourself operation. It's not. It requires skill, experience, and some expensive tools.

I would never discourage anyone from learning how to work on their own guitars, but it's wise to practice on cheap instruments. I've seen lots of good guitars that have been hacked on and practically ruined by unskilled do-it -yourselfers. I would like to advise anyone reading this not to be one of those people. A good guitar deserves to be worked on by a skilled craftsman.

[mcintalker]

It is NOT my term. It is what Earvana has named them. I completely understand the process for traditional, as I've made many in the last 49 years, though not any intonated ones. Those I had made by a more skilled pal with a Peterson strobe tuner and more time to explore the concept than I did at that point in my life. My eye sight started changing and didn't notice how I was avoiding getting glasses. I phased out repairing guitars and focused (!)on my more serious interests.
I am aware of the installation of their original 2 piece nut. I am refering to the Earvana's that are made to fit into Fender slots and and they also have lots of other makes and variations- widths, curved, Gibson, Maritn etc.
I have ordered 2 "drop ins" for a Strat and Night Hawk and I guess I could report on the ease or lack thereof once installed. I am exploring this option.
I totally agree with going with a skilled and experienced repairman. It's not like I said "ya just get out your reciprocating saw, and.....". LOL!

[Howling Terror]

Hi, I've not read the replies so maybe too late with this gem.

Long story short. Stonebridge guitars. They may be branded under a different name in USA.
2012-Catalog

A-B against a D28 and you'll see why you don't get value for money from similar priced Martins.
Had my D22-CM for 7 years now and it's starting to really open up. Gets used almost daily and been hauled about. No tuning problems, robust...just plays lovely.

Here's a video Stonebridge Guitar - Model DS-22-CM - www.candyrat.com - YouTube lowest youtube quality and still sounds good IMO.

Just emailed them about getting a pickguard. Here's their reply.

Hello Pat,

I will send the pickguard today. Take it as customer service.

With best regards

Petra

I suspect I'd be paying other luthiers a damn sight more than nothing for a plastic pickguard...Or still waiting for an email reply.

May read like it but I don't work for them. Converted, definitely.

[dubmunkey]

Originally Posted by Howling Terror

Hi, I've not read the replies so maybe too late with this gem.

Long story short. Stonebridge guitars. They may be branded under a different name in USA.
2012-Catalog

A-B against a D28 and you'll see why you don't get value for money from similar priced Martins.
Had my D22-CM for 7 years now and it's starting to really open up. Gets used almost daily and been hauled about. No tuning problems, robust...just plays lovely.

Here's a video Stonebridge Guitar - Model DS-22-CM - www.candyrat.com - YouTube lowest youtube quality and still sounds good IMO.

Just emailed them about getting a pickguard. Here's their reply.

Hello Pat,

I will send the pickguard today. Take it as customer service.

With best regards

Petra

I suspect I'd be paying other luthiers a damn sight more than nothing for a plastic pickguard...Or still waiting for an email reply.

May read like it but I don't work for them. Converted, definitely.

You UK based? Where did you demo yours?

[Howling Terror]

^^^Yes UK.
I got mine from here Guitar Shop in Stratford Upon Avon specialising in Cort Guitars, Stonebridge, Gordon-Smith, Godin, Faith & G&L. (no I don't work for them.. just in case someone thinks I'm getting 'Spammy' )
Just so happens he's a nice bloke too.

[mcintalker]

The website shows a US rep in Chicago, plus the Canadian one. Thanks for posting that video and the link. I will be checking it out!

[dubmunkey]

Originally Posted by Howling Terror

^^^Yes UK.
I got mine from here Guitar Shop in Stratford Upon Avon specialising in Cort Guitars, Stonebridge, Gordon-Smith, Godin, Faith & G&L. (no I don't work for them.. just in case someone thinks I'm getting 'Spammy' )
Just so happens he's a nice bloke too.

Thanks, ill try and find a dealer nearer me as our local shop is a GC type and wont have that kind of thing

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by mcintalker

It is NOT my term. It is what Earvana has named them. I completely understand the process for traditional, as I've made many in the last 49 years, though not any intonated ones. Those I had made by a more skilled pal with a Peterson strobe tuner and more time to explore the concept than I did at that point in my life. My eye sight started changing and didn't notice how I was avoiding getting glasses. I phased out repairing guitars and focused (!)on my more serious interests.
I am aware of the installation of their original 2 piece nut. I am refering to the Earvana's that are made to fit into Fender slots and and they also have lots of other makes and variations- widths, curved, Gibson, Maritn etc.
I have ordered 2 "drop ins" for a Strat and Night Hawk and I guess I could report on the ease or lack thereof once installed. I am exploring this option.
I totally agree with going with a skilled and experienced repairman. It's not like I said "ya just get out your reciprocating saw, and.....". LOL!

I just googled "earvana drop in" and I stand corrected. That's their dumb name for their product - not yours. It's a horrible name for a product that requires an experienced craftsman to install - it implies that anyone can do it themselves. I suppose they mean that you don't need to modify the nut slot, therefore you just "drop it in"(?). Although this product saves you the trouble of fabricating a nut from scratch, it still requires skill and precision to cleanly remove the original nut, and to fit and slot the "drop in" nut properly.

Like I said before, I just hate to see good guitars being butchered, partly because I'm often the guy who has to un-butcher them.

[mcintalker]

The "suspect in question" does in fact drop in to the Fender nut slot and then the shelves lean over or rest on top of the fingerboard. I haven't seen the acoustic ones yet, nor the one I ordered for my Epi Night Hawk.
In Nashville they call (or perhaps used to) these kind of intonated nuts
" shelved". Some of the nut slots are also cut back further into the nut body, by the way.
My acoustic guitars, especially the 12 strings, got louder once I had these nuts made. I theorized that it was because the strings were more in tune with each other ( the octaves) and in better sympathy, harmonically. A friend who also had his guitars and bass done, and I both noticed we were using less EQ on tracks with these instruments and that they blended better- more readily. I am used to it now after 13 years, and want to do it to my new guitars and basses (baritone, and mandolin). This will be my first Earvana experience, though I have tried all the Feiten guitars run across in shops.
RE butchered guitars; I've been asked to fix some that didn't "deserve" to be repaired. As a guitar teacher, I would be exposed to some very creative "fixery" and be asked if they (the student-to-be) could learn on this "guitar shaped" object-clunker-turd. LOL

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by mcintalker

The "suspect in question" does in fact drop in to the Fender nut slot and then the shelves lean over or rest on top of the fingerboard. I haven't seen the acoustic ones yet, nor the one I ordered for my Epi Night Hawk.
In Nashville they call (or perhaps used to) these kind of intonated nuts
" shelved". Some of the nut slots are also cut back further into the nut body, by the way.
My acoustic guitars, especially the 12 strings, got louder once I had these nuts made. I theorized that it was because the strings were more in tune with each other ( the octaves) and in better sympathy, harmonically. A friend who also had his guitars and bass done, and I both noticed we were using less EQ on tracks with these instruments and that they blended better- more readily. I am used to it now after 13 years, and want to do it to my new guitars and basses (baritone, and mandolin). This will be my first Earvana experience, though I have tried all the Feiten guitars run across in shops.
RE butchered guitars; I've been asked to fix some that didn't "deserve" to be repaired. As a guitar teacher, I would be exposed to some very creative "fixery" and be asked if they (the student-to-be) could learn on this "guitar shaped" object-clunker-turd. LOL

It seems like the Earvana nut has been available now for maybe 10 years or so. I installed one on a strat several years ago, and I don't recall having too much trouble with fitting it to the slot. I don't remember the packaging having the term "drop in" on it, but it's the same product. I've had no experience with their other products. I've made hundreds of nuts from scratch - usually from bone. However, I've never tried making a "shelved" or "compensated" nut. Perhaps I'll give it a try on one of my own guitars some time.

There is a very in depth article article written by Greg Byers published in American Lutherie #47 1996. His article, which is based on the compiled results of numerous experiments, explains how he came up with a design that looks a lot like the Earvana nut. The back issue is available from The Guild of American Luthiers, and is reprinted in their Big Red Book of American Lutherie vol 4.

I think that your observation regarding improved volume after having "shelved" nuts installed on your acoustic guitars is indeed valid. Don Teeter, in his book The Acoustic Guitar, he remarks about improved volume after installing an accurately compensated saddle on an acoustic guitar. He also makes mention of "advancing" the nut a-la-Buzz Feiton, however his book predated Feiton's innovations by a couple of decades.

Check out this link to a website dedicated to the history of Microfrets Guitars: Microfrets Pages
These instruments (made in the late 60's!) had adjustable nuts (similar to the Earvana, but adjustable), locking saddles, and wireless transmitters.

I was involved in a discussion here on GS a couple of months ago regarding the Earvana nut:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/guita...-dont-get.html

I should confess that in this post, I am regurgitating information (from my own posts and from others') from that particular thread.

Since we are kind of off-topic on this particular thread, perhaps any further discussion involving the Earvana nut should take place there.

Re butchered guitars: I have had to turn down quite a few repair jobs where the "butchery" was so severe that the cost of the repair work exceeded the value of the instrument. On "good' guitars (Martins, Gibsons, Fenders), they are usually worth fixing. However, it's always easier to do it right the first time than to have to undo crappy work, which often involves replacing entire chunks of wood, or carefully sanding off haphazardly applied super-glue, and so-on. I also hate to see a nice guitar with a nut that has been replaced sloppily, which is what inspired me to go off on the rant in my first post on this thread.

[mcintalker]

The biggest difference in the Drop In and original version nuts, which are still around and I guess still for sale, is that the Drop Ins are 1 piece and the originals (maybe only the Fenders? I don't know....) had two pieces; one to fill the slot and the second to be screwed on top.
I recently saw an original on a Rick Vito Reverend. If it is still at that store I might get to look at it more closely. I didn't at the time, though I would like to hear that guitar through an amp, especially one I have some familiarity with. Thanks for the tips/links.
RE louder after mod-upgrade; Tim Jagmin in Traverse City (now retired?) did the nuts for me and on an Epiphone PR735 (laminated), he made a new saddle out of bleached bone (dog chew? maybe) and shaped it so there are arches cut out between pairs of strings. Anyway, this took a non-dimensional guitar that I bought to use upstairs where I gave lessons ( and to keep students "off" my good guitars which were downstairs in the studio), to a surprizing place! Much louder and as nice a tone as a Martin DM that my mom got for me at a yard sale in Chicago for $50 with HS. I still enjoy it.

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by mcintalker

(dog chew? maybe)..

For raw material for nuts and saddles, I use bleached cow bone sold as dog-bones in pet stores. A $3.00 section of cow femur bought from the pet store can yield a dozen or so blanks, which typically run $4.00 - $6.00 or more apiece. I cut them on my bandsaw, and sand them to thickness on a stationary belt sander. As you can imagine, this operation produces a large amount of white bone dust, which scatters all over my garage. It's also somewhat time consuming, but sometimes I've got more time than money...

[mcintalker]

Thanks! That's it right there! I was very impressed with the difference in the sound of the guitar once that cow bone saddle was installed! Michael