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Kemper amp is that good?
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#61
15th October 2012
Old 15th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman View Post
I wonder if someone has Profiled the Dumble amps.. If so.. OMG..
Yes, actually there have been a couple, although not all of them have turned up on the profile exchange. And for a knockoff there's I believe a Ceriatone HRM among the default profiles that come with the unit, there are a lot of other really nice and unique amps out there that have been profiled.
#62
15th October 2012
Old 15th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnkenn View Post
Very cool! Did you post that Emorysound Amp anywhere? Sounds great!
I am gonna post it this week. It didn't even occur to me.
#63
15th October 2012
Old 15th October 2012
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Get mine tomorrow...I'm as giddy as a little school girl. Now, if it only made me a better player...
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#64
15th October 2012
Old 15th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BasHermus View Post
On a good tube amp/cab combination you really need hardly any effects.
On a Line6 you start piling effects, 'cause without them it just doesn't sound right.

Supposedly the Kemper is another league than a Line 6.
The fact that most examples of the Kemper use too much reverb makes me a bit wary.
Agree

Couldn't what the kemper does be done in a DAW post recording? From what I gather, it performs a frequency analysis and then applies this to a built in amp model so that it sounds the "same".

I am looking forward to a $50 plug in that does the same thing, if it does not already exist.

I just watched the demo and this is exactly what it is doing. This is the same technology as used in car audio. Alpine has an Audissey processor range and JBL has one as well. You put a mic in the listeners head position and it calculates EQ and time alignment curves given a sine wave sweep.
#65
15th October 2012
Old 15th October 2012
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even in chance of spaming the thread, if some Germans read this thread:
I´ve got a mint Kemper for sale in the classifieds

It´s as good as anybody says... keeping the second at my friends place, selling mine after the records done!
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#66
16th October 2012
Old 16th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreChris View Post
Agree

Couldn't what the kemper does be done in a DAW post recording? From what I gather, it performs a frequency analysis and then applies this to a built in amp model so that it sounds the "same".

I am looking forward to a $50 plug in that does the same thing, if it does not already exist.

I just watched the demo and this is exactly what it is doing. This is the same technology as used in car audio. Alpine has an Audissey processor range and JBL has one as well. You put a mic in the listeners head position and it calculates EQ and time alignment curves given a sine wave sweep.
Not the same thing. What you are thinking of is called Match EQ, and standard impulse response technique, the Kemper does indeed send an impulse and measure the response but matching the frequency range is only one part of what's going on for the Kemper. The distortion character, quantity, response curves and about 60 other parameters are all set at the same time through the profiling process. Simply put it's an amp sim that sets it's parameters via profiling. You'll also be waiting a long time for a plugin, Christoph is agressively protecting his IP of the Kemper and it's approach/algorithm with a patent (you can view the submission online to see how the Kemper works).
#67
16th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
You'll also be waiting a long time for a plugin, Christoph is agressively protecting his IP of the Kemper and it's approach/algorithm with a patent (you can view the submission online to see how the Kemper works).
Link?
#68
16th October 2012
Old 16th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
Not the same thing. What you are thinking of is called Match EQ, and standard impulse response technique, the Kemper does indeed send an impulse and measure the response but matching the frequency range is only one part of what's going on for the Kemper. The distortion character, quantity, response curves and about 60 other parameters are all set at the same time through the profiling process. Simply put it's an amp sim that sets it's parameters via profiling. You'll also be waiting a long time for a plugin, Christoph is agressively protecting his IP of the Kemper and it's approach/algorithm with a patent (you can view the submission online to see how the Kemper works).
I'm cautiously optimistic on this. I read the manual and my cynical self says that this is smoke and mirrors to a degree.

Let me give my take on what it appears to be. He wrote an amp simulation with many different parameters. Instead of packaging these into discrete models like everyone else does (Dumble Cone, Recto Clone, Diezel clone, Fender Twin Clone, Matchless clone, etc.) that were programmed at the factory, the profiling program listens to the content and makes decisions based on what it hears.

The program analyzes the distortion and is able to tell (perhaps) how many gain stages (fender or marshall circuit), what kind of clipping, the decay characteristics, feedback, etc. It might be able to glean some information on the pick attack, etc. It probably also has several different speaker parameters that can be set. Based on what it hears, it sets the parameters of the simulation and it labels it based on the type of amp.

Probably the biggest part of the profile is the autoEQ, which encompases the amps EQ stage, the mics, and the mic technique.

So what you end up with is an amp simulation with some set of unknown parameters that are set by by a program that listens to the amp. It encompasses the cabinet, the amps tone controls, and the mics / miking technique to create a "snapshot". **Unfortunately, it also encompasses the guitar and guitar pickup. (based on the playing demo portion of the profile.)**

I think you can anticipate my scepticism..

The amp is only profiled with a single listening with controls and mic set a particular way. What happens when you lower the gain? Or the EQ? More importantly, what happens when you change guitars???

My guess is that the amp simulation is programmed with a gain sweep and EQ controls at set frequencies. So unless the amp (say) has passive tone controls and gain sweep that functions very similar to the simulator, when you deviate from the "snapshot", the tone will start to sound very different.

And of course, when you change guitars and pickups, how much of the guitar played into the profile?

Then, what would happen if you attempt to use a pre-amp effect, like a wah, a compressor, or the myriad of boost pedals? Will the simulation behave the same as the real amp? My guess is NO, it will not. When you switch guitars, will it sound the same? My guess is NO, it will not. You are basically left with the performance of the underlying dsp simulator.

Philosophically, is it better to have a snapshot/profile that sounds correct only when it is played at baseline settings, or is it better to have amp models that were custom programmed (Line6, axefx, eleven rack, revalver, etc..) to behave like the real amp.

A programmed amp sim will more likely have the tone pot frequencies correct, where the profiled one will not. They may also be able to add custom logic to the programmed sim to encompass unique behaviors that are not seen while profiling.

I don't doubt that there is a WOW effect when the amp is first profiled. When you profile your own amp, and then play back the profile with your own guitar, through the original speaker cab, it will probably sound very close, and be a WOW moment. But for guys who dont have the original guitar/cab, or if you start to tweak the controls, it will start to fall apart.

Perhaps you can understand my scepticism. I am sure the profiler can get a close snapshot, but I doubt there is any way for it to behave properly to pedals, tone/gain changes, or guitar changes.
#69
16th October 2012
Old 16th October 2012
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well, try it out, you may be amazed...
#70
16th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
well, try it out, you may be amazed...
Or you might not Like me.
#71
16th October 2012
Old 16th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
well, try it out, you may be amazed...

Has anyone posted a demo of pedals being used in front of the Kemper? I have been listening to youtube clips and 99% of everything is highly distorted style music.

Also, has anyone shown what happens when you change the gain/eq on a profile?

When a tube amp is cranked, the power tube saturation helps meld tones together. You can get a natural sustain and compression with lower preamp gain. The tone ends up being more open and all the details come out. The top breathes unlike when the pre gain is higher. More importantly when set up this way, the interplay with the guitar volume and playing is such that you can control dynamics, really digging into the strings gives more gain and perceived level, yet the tube saturation still gives sustain to the cleaner notes.

And what about making EQ changes during recording or during reamping? When you roll back the treble knob on guitar, what a real amp does is very organic. And when reamping, making mic position changes impart very dynamic changes to the overall tone. Proximity effect and tone curve are both influenced by mic position. Can the profiler allow me to adjust these things, or do I need to create/load another profile?

Some people call these things the "last 5%", but these are my bread and butter.

Am I missing the point of this? Is the point of the profiling amp to clone basic guitar tones for commercial spots and quick demos? Or are people buying these to play live and use as their main rig? I saw a bunch of comments along the lines of "sold my amp for this".
#72
16th October 2012
Old 16th October 2012
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SabreChris,

I can't answer all your questions, because I don't own one, but these are all the same questions I've been considering. I have no interest in a heavy, high gain metal tone, which most of the most prominent Youtube examples tend to be. However, a few additional sources have helped me understand better how clean and borderline clean/distorted sounds work with the Kemper, and how the dynamics of playing respond with the Kemper.

Take a look at this one: Kemper Profiling Amplifier / From Clean To Crunch - YouTube

And take some time to listen to the excellent samples on the Amp Factory's page, many of which include clean, clean-ish and dynamic clean-dirty tones:
Amps Pack 1 | The Amp Factory...Sounds of the past, present and future
Amps Pack 2 | The Amp Factory...Sounds of the past, present and future

These don't answer all your questions, but might help give you a bit more information. I do share your question, if I may rephrase it this way, as to how 'fixed' a given profile is relative to the particular gain level and tone values of the amp when it was profiled, and how 'true' it stays to the profiled tone as you change the gain and tone knobs on the Kemper. (i.e. what's the practical difference between using two different profiles for a gain variation of 3 on the amp knob, vs. using one profile and increasing/decreasing the Kemper's gain knob by 3?)
#73
16th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Hay View Post
These don't answer all your questions, but might help give you a bit more information. I do share your question, if I may rephrase it this way, as to how 'fixed' a given profile is relative to the particular gain level and tone values of the amp when it was profiled, and how 'true' it stays to the profiled tone as you change the gain and tone knobs on the Kemper. (i.e. what's the practical difference between using two different profiles for a gain variation of 3 on the amp knob, vs. using one profile and increasing/decreasing the Kemper's gain knob by 3?)
Thanks for the links.

Another way to put this: Is it like dating a real girl, or is it like admiring a picture of a girl? Lots of things you can do with a real girl that you can't with a picture.
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#74
17th October 2012
Old 17th October 2012
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i guess you have to riy itout for yourself. most poeple who have tried the kemper like it and say it is like playing a real amp

some don´t feel that way and return it

for me, having played the negl screamer and fireball for some years, turning down the volume-poti on the guitar reacts like the real thing

but, with those amps that are a more modern design, the sound is done with the preamp and there is no power-amp distortion

as for the other questions:
you cannot change the mic-placement after you profiled the amp with some stiing sin the kemper

some (commercial) profiles offer profiles with various mic-settings for that.
#75
17th October 2012
Old 17th October 2012
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I just wish they made it look like a traditional amp head instead of looking like a piece of test equipment. Still I'd like to try one out, especially in a live situation.
#76
17th October 2012
Old 17th October 2012
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OMG...run to the store and get one of these. Best purchase I've ever made for the guitar.
#77
17th October 2012
Old 17th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnkenn View Post
OMG...run to the store and get one of these. Best purchase I've ever made for the guitar.
John.. Can you elaborate a little more..

Thanks..
#78
18th October 2012
Old 18th October 2012
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I don't like reverb at all. I play guitar. Boom.
#79
18th October 2012
Old 18th October 2012
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Kemper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnkenn View Post
OMG...run to the store and get one of these. Best purchase I've ever made for the guitar.
John, you should hitch a ride up from Nashvegas to STL with my buddy Friday. He just got one, and we are going to go crazy with it Saturday after vox.

I'm stoked. We're gonna try and profile a Plexi, JCM800, 5150, Rec, Orange, Koch, and Fender Twin. Should be quite a blast!

If this thing does what it says, its going to be hard to argue. I tend to get sounds dialed in on a particular amp and use that amp for that sound. A player will make it sound different, but this could save me hours of setup and not to mention ease of overdubs on a different date.

I'll post my thoughts. I have a lot of amps being a guitarist, but it would be cool if I could make my studio life easier and more efficient.

JROD
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#80
18th October 2012
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Here are two posts I made on thegearpage.net...


I've been following Will Chen's thread with interest and thought I would post my impressions...I'm going to record with this - no playing out - so I'm listening through a Lynx Hilo into Focal Solos with a Sub.
My initial first thoughts were similar to Will's...it was definitely better than other options, but scrolling through the presets, nothing that just killed me...but, I kept playing with it for a couple of hours. Found some presets that I really liked, got used to using the compressor and how to dial in the verb for a small room sound...things started getting fun. Wasn't sure how to read the naming convention and figured out the sort by amp feature...then it started to pop more. Wow - a Royer on a Matchless makes a huge difference. Pulled the presence down, turned up the volume in the cab section a little...channel volume up...I started REALLY liking it. Then I thought I would try one of The Amp Factory presets...I got the /13 FTR37 and a Fender Tremolux EC.

HOOOLY SHIIT...WOOOW. Now that was badass. The /13 is worth what I paid for the thing! So - that's where I am right now...still playing this one amp. I can't WAIT to try some of the others. These seem to be better profiles to me than what came with the Kemper. Gonna try some of the soundside.de profiles too.

Anybody know of any great Delixe Reverb and Tweed profiles?


And


Man - now that I've played with this thing, I'm just blown away. It's exactly what I was hoping for. It allows me to plug in and get virtually incredibly convincing mic'd up tube amp sounds...and tons of them. There's absolutely no way someone could spot this as fake...it adds a depth and dimension that is just miles ahead of the POD HD. (I have one) This thing is inspiring me, where the POD made me consider just doing acoustic demos...and that's worth the money in itself. There are several profiles off the top of my head that make this worth the purchase alone - The Amp Factory /13 FTR37, Clapton Tremolux, One of the Matchless, a Super Reverb, a Mesa Boogie, 6505...Love to have a good Princeton though. There are some great AC30's in there too. Are there any AC15's? Haven't really played with the Marshall's that much - never played a real JTM 45, but these just all SOUND like a real amp...I'm over the moon about this thing.
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#81
22nd October 2012
Old 22nd October 2012
  #81
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First off, I salute german engineering for direct in solutions as I now use a Palmer PGA-04 with a Randall MTS RT2/50 setup 4cm with Axe Fx Ultra...

I had tested out the Kemper and it is cool but to me it still lacks a solid reproduction even after continued profiling tweaks. It's close no doubt, but for me guitar recording direct is the set up above and soon to be without the Axe Fx Ultra. Mostly in the lows is where I found the Kemper lacking, you have to boost lows inline between the DAW and Kemper to get it back in my experience, so its not all contained in the profiling exercise and the Kemper EQ is not the solution either..

I will be selling the Axe Fx Ultra as I dont use that for amp sims or cabinet emulation so what's the point if I'm not using it for crazy effects either. I want to capture my live effects set up... so the Axe is gotta go and the Palmer speaker emulation has been around for a while and I like it compared to the other stuff I have had and tried to make work.

As far as Kemper vs Axe Fx, well in my opinion the Kemper is way better, now I don't have Axe Fx II so depending on that difference YMMV.

I tried to work with the Axe Fx and as much as you find the love for these they are not that realistic as well. There is an eq mud that can't be wiped without taking a portion of what 2D soul was in the guitar track. Listen to the 500 hz area and be fair...

PODs, Tonelabs, Sansamp, Recabinet, Redwirez, Ownhammer, S-Gear have been here and gone as well over time. So I post this for my opinion in order to give another perspective in the studio to someone before they drop $2,000. Live is whatever sounds good and can be managed by FOH...

So I like the PGA-04 with real tubes as a direct in solution, but like said so many times for guitar there is magic in the guitar - preamp - power amp - speaker - mic - console preamp - DAW path and choice/variation that can't be emulated at this date but I do like where it's going. Blending for me brings to life the in your face direct realism and the "space" "room" sound of a mic set up that brings 3d character to guitar.

I will say this if I had to take my amp gear to other studios for work then the Kemper is the current tool as I could never get a great MTS or Egnater TOL sound out of the Axe Fx... If you have these amps you know the sound...


I post this to be helpful and anyone wanting to spend the dough on a Kemper or Axe Fx should give it a good test run for a fit.
#82
22nd October 2012
Old 22nd October 2012
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How do you update the Kemper firmware and add downloaded rigs? I tried to transfer with a flash drive, but nothing happened when I plugged the drive in to the Kemper.

I have to say there may be some differences in sound with the Kemper, but it sounds great and responds like a real amp. The biggest thing I noticed was the low end of the profiles I made myself. So far I did a 5150 and Mesa Rec with a 57 and 421. The amps had more low end, but in fairness, I would probably HPF some of that in the mix.

I really want to play with this thing some more and try some of the Amp Factory profiles...

JROD
#83
24th October 2012
Old 24th October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrod9900 View Post
How do you update the Kemper firmware and add downloaded rigs? I tried to transfer with a flash drive, but nothing happened when I plugged the drive in to the Kemper.

I have to say there may be some differences in sound with the Kemper, but it sounds great and responds like a real amp. The biggest thing I noticed was the low end of the profiles I made myself. So far I did a 5150 and Mesa Rec with a 57 and 421. The amps had more low end, but in fairness, I would probably HPF some of that in the mix.

I really want to play with this thing some more and try some of the Amp Factory profiles...

JROD
Hi, the instructions are given in the manual. You'll need to set up the USB thumbdrive on the kemper first, then you can start transfering rigs etc. It will set up the folders. Once you have the folders in place you simply drag the kaos.bin file into the OS folder on the thumbdrive, eject the drive (always do this the safe way by chosing eject media as users have had corrupted rigs on their drive due to not doing this which have caused problems with the Kemper), then plug it into your Kemper, the Kemper should see the drive, find the os update and ask you if you want to install it. With rigs you will need to use the "external storage" option from the buttons at the top of the screen, and then go from there (import rigs, export rigs etc). They also go into their own folder ion the thumbdrive.
#84
24th October 2012
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I read through the manual, but it wasn't too detailed regarding that information.

Thanks for your help.

JROD
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#85
31st October 2012
Old 31st October 2012
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My 2c after using it for a few months for recording:

It doesn't match up to miking a real amp. The sound is close, but thinner. This comes obvious when quad tracking metal rhythm guitars, the difference just stacks up. I have to use a lot of creative eq'ing to get the "all Kemper" tracks to match the "all tube amp" tracks. We're using the profiles we made, Diezel Herbert through a Matamp 2x12 and Engl Savage through an Engl 2x12.

The Kemper seems to be lacking in the lower midrange and low end thickness. It sounds too transparent, maybe, compared to the real thing. It sounds awesome on it's own on a single track or mixed in with tube amp tracks though.
#86
31st October 2012
Old 31st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by col View Post
My 2c after using it for a few months for recording:

It doesn't match up to miking a real amp. The sound is close, but thinner. This comes obvious when quad tracking metal rhythm guitars, the difference just stacks up. I have to use a lot of creative eq'ing to get the "all Kemper" tracks to match the "all tube amp" tracks. We're using the profiles we made, Diezel Herbert through a Matamp 2x12 and Engl Savage through an Engl 2x12.

The Kemper seems to be lacking in the lower midrange and low end thickness. It sounds too transparent, maybe, compared to the real thing. It sounds awesome on it's own on a single track or mixed in with tube amp tracks though.
I get mine in a week, I only use up to 3 guitar tracks and my metal stuff comes out thick as hell. you have anything online with the kemper i can hear?

here is 2 tracks hard panned with the blackstar 20watter.
Tempered dreams_IRE by Top of the Trops on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

I hope its just your ears needing more thickness, i dont wanna sell this thing as soon as i get it to fund the AXE fx.
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#87
31st October 2012
Old 31st October 2012
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#88
31st October 2012
Old 31st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by col View Post
My 2c after using it for a few months for recording:

It doesn't match up to miking a real amp. The sound is close, but thinner. This comes obvious when quad tracking metal rhythm guitars, the difference just stacks up. I have to use a lot of creative eq'ing to get the "all Kemper" tracks to match the "all tube amp" tracks. We're using the profiles we made, Diezel Herbert through a Matamp 2x12 and Engl Savage through an Engl 2x12.

The Kemper seems to be lacking in the lower midrange and low end thickness. It sounds too transparent, maybe, compared to the real thing. It sounds awesome on it's own on a single track or mixed in with tube amp tracks though.
As a fellow user - please can you post this on the Kemper forums along with your example showing the difference? Given that this thing is a software/firmware based solution with allegedly plenty of free DSP power to spare there's no excuse for them to not fix that.

Given how long you've been using the unit I'm assuming it's not an issue of simply adding a studio EQ effect or adjusting the cab or tone stack settings to the rig, (or any other advanced amp setting) but something more fundamental that needs to be sorted out.
#89
31st October 2012
Old 31st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by col View Post
Hey gt, I think we had this same conversation on HC already. (nakedzen over there)

Here's a comparison of the tube vs. Kemper, no post eq, both quad tracked:

Tube vs Kemper by nakedzen on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

At first it seems that the Kemper would be a more mix ready tone here, but once you start applying post eq to make it sit in the mix the Kemper tracks get very thin and piercing easily.
I can hear what you mean, there is a definite lack of bass in comparison. and it sounds slightly less compressed. I dont hear this in the other clips :(. time will only tell. The shop has botched my oreder,saying they emailed the order but the distributer never got it due to email failure. That was over a week ago....
col
#90
31st October 2012
Old 31st October 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gt_jumper View Post
I can hear what you mean, there is a definite lack of bass in comparison. and it sounds slightly less compressed. I dont hear this in the other clips :(.
I think it's due to the stacking effect of quad tracking everything. Possibly also has something to do with the fact that the real amps are dual mic'd (SM57 + M201TG) and the profile is sort of a 50/50 hybrid of the two mics.

I guess I'll have to mess around with the advanced cab settings more, I only tried them for a while and the tone I got out wasn't really what I was after. I just felt that me trying to fix it through the menus would most likely result in a less accurate tone compared to the real thing. :D

I haven't really tried to fix the issue that way yet to be honest. Once we finish recording I'll have more time to delve into the deep editing side of it.

EDIT: Here's the eq curve of the differences made with Ozone match eq, the boosted freq are the ones missing from the Kemper. I'll have to try to apply this eq to the Kemper tracks and see if it fixes the issue.



Edit2: It indeed did fix the issues I was getting.
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