You gotta trust your ears...if it sounds good to you, roll with it!! Personally, I can't stand amp modeling for the most part, but Line6's integration of tube power stages makes me believe the technology will get there...some day. I have yet to hear any digital emulator give that attack and "tube sag." There will be those (mostly engineers) that will adapt to the landscape, probably preferring efficiency, variety and clarity of signal over other qualities. Others (mostly guitarists) will forever be classicist about their gear for the sake of musicality. I think modeling has its place, but its not for me, plain and simple.
I have a Fender Twin Reverb, Fender Bassman, Marshall preamp and all kinds of pedals, but I'll go to my Line 6 flextone Plus amp miced cabinet (->sm57/Royer121->Vintech Preamp) to find a sound first. It is so easy to go to the Flextone first due to its versatility. If I'm not happy, then I'll do the much harder search to find the right tube pedal/amp combination.
I can't say I've read this whole thread, so I may be repeating something someone has already brought up. But I started playing guitar in bands when tube amps were the ONLY option. And although I held onto my belief in tube amps for a very long time, I've moved on to modeling amps as my primary working amp for several reasons which I suspect will eventually win the day for most working musicians.
1) Modeling amps are WAYYYY more durable and dependable than their tube counterparts. When your gear moves around a lot, it doesn't take long before you start getting some noisy artifacts showing up with a tube amp which are not cheap to fix in some cases. Maybe some folks can afford to cart around a backup, but who's to say that won't also have some weird noise popping up either from moving it around or it just sitting idle for too long without being fired up. I'll take dependability any day. Particularly when there are often other people handling and moving your equipment.
2) Although YOU might be able to tell the difference between a modeled amp and the original, it's not very likely your audience will..and most likely most of your other band members won't either. As long as you can achieve anything reasonably close to the tones you're emulating, you will please the audience...which is ultimately what this is all about.
3) In this day and age when everything on the stage is mic'd and processed through the FOH system, the modeling amps are FAR better at keeping their tone at lower volumes...which allows for MUCH better stage volume control and an overall cleaner, tighter sound for the band and the audience. It's a good thing it works that way as most of the modeling amps do tend to loose some of the model's integrity at higher volume levels. But in my case I never find it necessary to go that high with appropriate mic's and sound reinforcement gear.
4) I tend to use about 7 or 8 typical presets which cover the range of sounds I try to achieve in the different songs throughout the band's repertoire. The modeling amps typically provide enough of the essential effects that it GREATLY simplifies my pedalboard. Generally one pushbutton on my pedalboard is all I need to do to setup for a completely different sound as compared to punching in and out various effects and settings. All of this is easily staged beforehand so there's less for me to worry about while performing.
5) And most importantly, as you get to a certain age you become a lot more pragmatic about such things. As long as I'm making my other band members, the sound man, and the audience happy, I'm happy....because I'm getting too old and have been circling this particular block for too long to have OCD over the nitpicky details that really don't matter all that much in the overall scope of being a working guitar jockey.
There will not be a day where they replace real amps. There are 2 camps, people who believe they sound the same and people who have good hearing. Haha seriously, I don't find a lot of them more reliable. It's easy to fix a high end tube amp, try fixing a circuit board mess quickly.
It's true you can get a great sound out of anything. It's the player not the gear. Some people like the tweak ability which I understand. That becomes more important. I. I have yet to play one that actually sounds like the gear it emulates. You say people don't know the difference? Well they do when they hear them back to back.
Plus, the feel is never the same. They can't emulate that. So anyone that has spent time with an great amp (not some mass produced tube amp) knows how the response is very sensitive.
To each their own. But let's stop pretending they sound and feel the same.
There will not be a day where they replace real amps. There are 2 camps, people who believe they sound the same and people who have good hearing. Haha seriously, I don't find a lot of them more reliable. It's easy to fix a high end tube amp, try fixing a circuit board mess quickly.
It's true you can get a great sound out of anything. It's the player not the gear. Some people like the tweak ability which I understand. That becomes more important. I. I have yet to play one that actually sounds like the gear it emulates. You say people don't know the difference? Well they do when they hear them back to back.
Plus, the feel is never the same. They can't emulate that. So anyone that has spent time with an great amp (not some mass produced tube amp) knows how the response is very sensitive.
To each their own. But let's stop pretending they sound and feel the same.
I concur - I am always scratching my head when people praise Line6, AxeFX, Kemper, etc - whenever I listen to demos, they all sound terrible to me - no comparison to real amps.
There will not be a day where they replace real amps. There are 2 camps, people who believe they sound the same and people who have good hearing. Haha seriously, I don't find a lot of them more reliable. It's easy to fix a high end tube amp, try fixing a circuit board mess quickly.
It's true you can get a great sound out of anything. It's the player not the gear. Some people like the tweak ability which I understand. That becomes more important. I. I have yet to play one that actually sounds like the gear it emulates. You say people don't know the difference? Well they do when they hear them back to back.
Plus, the feel is never the same. They can't emulate that. So anyone that has spent time with an great amp (not some mass produced tube amp) knows how the response is very sensitive.
To each their own. But let's stop pretending they sound and feel the same.
Yup.
It's amazing what you can convince yourself sounds better when you want convinience and choice.
And to add... I happen to like some of the silver face fenders which happen to be an era most people see as a decline. At some point fender, Marshall, Vox really started making circuit board junk with tubes attached. A hologram of what they used to be. I was referring to that rather then boutique amps.
I concur - I am always scratching my head when people praise Line6, AxeFX, Kemper, etc - whenever I listen to demos, they all sound terrible to me - no comparison to real amps.
I say bunk. I've heard A/B test between a Kemper and the real amp and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference, especially more in a mix. You say it sounds terrible and there is no comparison but I am willing to bet you couldn't consistently pick out the real amp in a A/B test.
I say bunk. I've heard A/B test between a Kemper and the real amp and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference, especially more in a mix. You say it sounds terrible and there is no comparison but I am willing to bet you couldn't consistently pick out the real amp in a A/B test.
Bet I could! I have been playing guitar for nearly 30 years now and know what a good tube amp is supposed to sound like. If I was the one playing through the Kemper, I would certainly be able to tell the difference in feel and response.
Anyway, I have already listened to A/B comparisons and the difference was noticeable. Here's one as an example:
The Kemper lacks depth, punch, and clarity in every example.
It depends on the type of music. If its organic music and mixes I usually hear the difference. If its pop and other forms of super produced mixes you're right.
Real amps stack better in mixes for some reason. Sometimes emulations sound ok on their own but by the time you do 2-3 they sound narrow and one dimensional.
As with a lot of thing it's about application. I tend to track a lot of organic music.for this digital is a no go. I do get called on plenty of sessions where they plug me into all kinds of emulations.
It can effect the performance. I use everything from analog to digital. The digital doesn't always act the same especially when it comes to getting reaction for ambient stuff. Of course it works better if I'm at the controls but if the engineer is trying to set it up it never works the same way. By reaction I mean where you can play the gear in real time. For this nothing really replaces a tape echo for instance.
I do think the same thing exists in amps. Yeah, it can sound ok but there are some details that are missing. Are you going to miss them in a huge mix? No. Are you going to miss them in a sparse mix? Yes.
In the end I play through whatever the producer wants me to on sessions and smile. It's my job to do so and I'm happy to oblige. When it comes to my own music though I never go towards anything digital. For what I do with my original music Fife & Drom www.fifeadndrom.com only real amps get used.
Bet I could! I have been playing guitar for nearly 30 years now and know what a good tube amp is supposed to sound like. If I was the one playing through the Kemper, I would certainly be able to tell the difference in feel and response.
Anyway, I have already listened to A/B comparisons and the difference was noticeable. Here's one as an example:
The Kemper lacks depth, punch, and clarity in every example.
I know what you mean, I've heard that in nearly every Kemper demo on YouTube, it sounds thinner. But to be fair, if you listen to the profiles you pay to download, they sound great, and it would be impossible to tell they weren't real amps on a record. I mean, a lot of records nowadays use plug ins, and I wouldn't have known some of them did unless I had read an interview with the producer....and I've been playing all my life and grew up with real amps in bands, etc.
The other thing is, it's not always easy to get a studio ready sound in a home studio, so even if you have a great amp you still have to have the gear and room to mic it to compete with all those big records out there. If you have all the time and $ in the world then you can. If you have to do a song by Friday for a client then these devices are more than a welcome friend.
I know what you mean, I've heard that in nearly every Kemper demo on YouTube, it sounds thinner. But to be fair, if you listen to the profiles you pay to download, they sound great, and it would be impossible to tell they weren't real amps on a record. I mean, a lot of records nowadays use plug ins, and I wouldn't have known some of them did unless I had read an interview with the producer....and I've been playing all my life and grew up with real amps in bands, etc.
The other thing is, it's not always easy to get a studio ready sound in a home studio, so even if you have a great amp you still have to have the gear and room to mic it to compete with all those big records out there. If you have all the time and $ in the world then you can. If you have to do a song by Friday for a client then these devices are more than a welcome friend.
TH
I don't know - I haven't been able to find any good sounding profile demos - what commercial ones were you thinking of?
I was just listening to a bunch of demos from The Amp Factory - I have owned (or at least used a number of times) and recorded with a lot of the amps that they've modeled; and of these, none of their profiles sound right to me. The Vox AC30, Supro 1624T, and Orange Rockerverb (all amps that I know very well) sound particularly off to me.
I don't know - I haven't been able to find any good sounding profile demos - what commercial ones were you thinking of?
I was just listening to a bunch of demos from The Amp Factory - I have owned (or at least used a number of times) and recorded with a lot of the amps that they've modeled; and of these, none of their profiles sound right to me. The Vox AC30, Supro 1624T, and Orange Rockerverb (all amps that I know very well) sound particularly off to me.
Well I think the Amp Factory samples sound very good. Again, I know what you mean, I am very familiar with Blackface Fenders (I've owned many of them and currently have a 65 Dual Showman)....the Bandmaster did not sound right on to me, but what I came away with was that it did sound miles better than any plug in, whether it was right on or not, and definitely didn't sound like some fizzy digital emulation.
I will still take an amp any day on something really important like a record, but again only in the right recording environment.
Well I think the Amp Factory samples sound very good. Again, I know what you mean, I am very familiar with Blackface Fenders (I've owned many of them and currently have a 65 Dual Showman)....the Bandmaster did not sound right on to me, but what I came away with was that it did sound miles better than any plug in, whether it was right on or not, and definitely didn't sound like some fizzy digital emulation.
I will still take an amp any day on something really important like a record, but again only in the right recording environment.
Well, I'll give you that - even the bad profiles that I've heard do sound better than plugins.
Bet I could! I have been playing guitar for nearly 30 years now and know what a good tube amp is supposed to sound like. If I was the one playing through the Kemper, I would certainly be able to tell the difference in feel and response.
Anyway, I have already listened to A/B comparisons and the difference was noticeable. Here's one as an example:
The Kemper lacks depth, punch, and clarity in every example.
Go and try one out yourself, you won't be able to tell as easily as you thnk, especially when playing in fact. Take it to a studio with a nice amp room thats got good isolation and do your ab test.
Go and try one out yourself, you won't be able to tell as easily as you thnk, especially when playing in fact. Take it to a studio with a nice amp room thats got good isolation and do your ab test.
Shouldn't have to do that, though - and this is something that bothers me about the modeling/profiling amps - if they are as amazing as everyone claims, that amazingness should come through even on YouTube clips. Even crappy demos recorded by cellphones of real amps sound better on YouTube than many of the demos that I have heard of AxeFX and Kemper.
I am starting to think that people who like these modeling/profiling amps have very different ideas than me on what constitutes good guitar tone.
Shouldn't have to do that, though - and this is something that bothers me about the modeling/profiling amps - if they are as amazing as everyone claims, that amazingness should come through even on YouTube clips. Even crappy demos recorded by cellphones of real amps sound better on YouTube than many of the demos that I have heard of AxeFX and Kemper.
I am starting to think that people who like these modeling/profiling amps have very different ideas than me on what constitutes good guitar tone.
I'll wager that the reason they're "as amazing as everyone says they are" is because you're listening with your eyes rather than your ears. If someone stripped away all the titles and the visuals from the videos and just presented you with a range of clips of guitar playing you'd be a hell of a lot less sure of your ground and what constitutes "good tone" on this.
It's odd though that you'd imagine that playing one in person would somehow offer less fidelity and ability to discern than hearing them over youtube. :shrugs:
I'll wager that the reason they're "as amazing as everyone says they are" is because you're listening with your eyes rather than your ears. If someone stripped away all the titles and the visuals from the videos and just presented you with a range of clips of guitar playing you'd be a hell of a lot less sure of your ground and what constitutes "good tone" on this.
It's odd though that you'd imagine that playing one in person would somehow offer less fidelity and ability to discern than hearing them over youtube. :shrugs:
Umm, no...I'm listening with my ears (via expensive cans and headphone amp and top notch DA converters). I know what a real tube amps sound like when recorded with quality gear in a good room - and the Kemper and AxeFX demos don't have that sound. They are in the ball park, but still lacking something (and that which they are lacking makes all the difference, unless you are recording the soulless BS that passes for music in some parts - music in which the guitar sounds like an army of bees on the warpath). They sound flat, inarticulate, and lack punch and vibrancy. People try to mask this fact with tons of gain, reverb and delay.
Umm, no...I'm listening with my ears (via expensive cans and headphone amp and top notch DA converters). I know what a real tube amps sound like when recorded with quality gear in a good room - and the Kemper and AxeFX demos don't have that sound. They are in the ball park, but still lacking something (and that which they are lacking makes all the difference, unless you are recording the soulless BS that passes for music in some parts - music in which the guitar sounds like an army of bees on the warpath). They sound flat, inarticulate, and lack punch and vibrancy. People try to mask this fact with tons of gain, reverb and delay.
Really? So then you wouldn't object to some blind tests? It's refreshing to see someone that's willing to put themselves on the line and wont make excuses about "the validity of such tests" or "not what I like anyway" or "poor quality either way" etc, that you get from people who aren't absolutely certain and on rock solid ground and are willing to stand by their ears. I'll see about grabbing a bunch of audio and seeing if you are able to determine what's what.
In the meanwhile we can start with this basic no frills no effects quick low gain dry amp test, it's in AIF format so it might take a little while to download, but which parts are amp sim and which are real amp (if any)?
Really? So then you wouldn't object to some blind tests? It's refreshing to see someone that's willing to put themselves on the line and wont make excuses about "the validity of such tests" or "not what I like anyway" or "poor quality either way" etc, that you get from people who aren't absolutely certain and on rock solid ground and are willing to stand by their ears. I'll see about grabbing a bunch of audio and seeing if you are able to determine what's what.
In the meanwhile we can start with this basic no frills no effects quick low gain dry amp test, it's in AIF format so it might take a little while to download, but which parts are amp sim and which are real amp (if any)?
OK - first of all, this entire clip sounds terrible - that, my friend, is an awful guitar tone (out of tune, too)!
Honestly, neither run sounds like a miced amp - rather, they both sound like they were recorded direct. There is also a volume difference between the two passes, which is a little distracting for a blind test. The first run is lower volume, slightly mellower than the second run, and the transients aren't as aggressive - but honestly, they both sound like an amp sim to me, with a little processing having been done on the second run - but if pressed, I'd say the first was miced (only because I think I detect some room air in there) and the second a sim.
The first one is flatter sounding, which normally implies amp sim to me, but the lack of air in the second makes it more sim-like to me. They both sound like a$$, though.
If you can't get a good guitar tone out a Kemper, chances are good that you can't get one out of miking an amp up either. Same goes for amp sims. The technology is capable of making really good tones, but the individual has to -
A. Be willing to work for it
B. Be knowledgeable enough about the plugin controls to know how to achieve the desired sound
But I know that isn't for everyone, but then again, nothing is for EVERYONE. If it isn't your thing, then move on. If it is, dig in and have fun. I remember Guitar Player magazine calling me when they were doing a review of Softube's Metal Amp Room, for which I contributed some demo tracks on the Softube site. The reviewer asked me what "magic" I used to get those tones, since he was apparently unable to achieve similar results. I told him - all I did was use a Fender American Deluxe Strat into a Tube-Tech MEC1-A preamp, into the plugin with no additional plugin processing. But I did spend some time tweaking the amp controls to the part I wrote it for. That was it. He didn't understand that I didn't use a bunch of processing, but I didn't. So, all that to say, some things work for you and some things don't. Knowing what those things are is the key to making recordings you are happy with.
OK - first of all, this entire clip sounds terrible - that, my friend, is an awful guitar tone (out of tune, too)!
Honestly, neither run sounds like a miced amp - rather, they both sound like they were recorded direct. There is also a volume difference between the two passes, which is a little distracting for a blind test. The first run is lower volume, slightly mellower than the second run, and the transients aren't as aggressive - but honestly, they both sound like an amp sim to me, with a little processing having been done on the second run - but if pressed, I'd say the first was miced (only because I think I detect some room air in there) and the second a sim.
The first one is flatter sounding, which normally implies amp sim to me, but the lack of air in the second makes it more sim-like to me.
You should learn to trust your ears more instead of making excuses for your uncertainty in them and I'm talking the irony of literally every single excuse that I listed in the post that you quoted, including the psychoaccoustic volume one being the bulk of your response.
The test isn't about production, playing, tuning or ideal tone, it's about whether there's a significant difference between an amp sim and a real amp with low gain and no FX to cover anything up (as you claimed all amp sim examples are bee attack high gain tones or slathered in reverb, delay and fx to cover up their deficiencies), and in this case clearly there isn't even for you as you have to be pushed i.e. you clearly sat down carefully doing side by side back and forth to try and work it out rather than just listening and instantly going "it's A" or "it's B" and when pushed had to go by "lack of air", when earlier I believe you said there was "no comparison to real amps" i.e. painfully obvious what's what... ...so much for that then.
Anyhow as I said you should trust your ears rather than making excuses to cover your ass, you were right when "pushed" the first section is a real all tube Mesa amp the second is the Kemper. Sadly though the only way you heard was from room noise "air" which is just another reverb and could easily be added to the Kemper track but apparently according to your earlier post that's not allowed, even though it's patently the only difference here and can be easily achieved ITB. If you feel this doesn't conclude the demonstration and prove the point then I'll just go and find random bits of guitar from the web amps and sims, link them up in a track (not AB's just soundbite after soundbite) and we can see how well that goes.
You should learn to trust your ears more instead of making excuses for your uncertainty in them and I'm talking the irony of literally every single excuse that I listed in the post that you quoted, including the psychoaccousticvolume one being the majority of your response.
The test isn't about production, playing, tuning or ideal tone, it's about whether there's a significant difference between an amp sim and a real amp with low gain and no FX to cover anything up, and in this case clearly there isn't even for you as you have to be pushed i.e. you clearly sat down carefully doing side by side back and forth to try and work it out rather than just listening and instantly going "it's A" or "it's B" and when pushed had to go by "lack of air".
Anyhow as I said you should trust your ears rather than making excuses to cover your ass, you were right when "pushed" the first section is a real all tube Mesa amp the second is the Kemper. Sadly though the only way you heard was from room noise "air" which is just another reverb and could easily be added to the Kemper track but apparently according to your earlier post that's not allowed, even though it's patently the only difference here.
Still, I guessed correctly. Mesa amps are certainly capable of sounding much better than your first clip (I know, because I have owned and recorded with them); if you had recorded it better, it would be even easier for me to tell the difference....but congrats on matching fairly closely on the Kemper a crappy recording of a Mesa (if I was in need of crappy sounding Mesa tones that sounded like DI guitar, it might be worth my while to invest in a Kemper - or maybe not, given the cost of the Kemper).
Now, post a clip of a properly miced amp in a good room with medium gain along side of a comparable Kemper profile and I will be even easier for me to guess, as this is where the sims really start to fall apart.
Oh, and production does matter, even with A/B blind tests.
Still, I guessed correctly. Mesa amps are certainly capable of sounding much better than your first clip (I know, because I have owned and recorded with them); if you had recorded it better, it would be even easier for me to tell the difference....but congrats on matching fairly closely on the Kemper a crappy recording of a Mesa.
Now, post a clip of a properly miced amp in a good room with medium gain along side of a comparable Kemper profile and I will be even easier for me to guess, as this is where the sims really start to fall apart.
You sat and had to listen carefully to find the difference in a tone that's traditionally considered much harder to nail with a sim (rather than a polished tone which sim's have been producing for years), it wasn't the worlds apart that you claim, I'd say point made.
Sadly I don't have a "good" room to record in, nor time or expertise to ever hope to find what you consider to be good tone, however it's a false assumption to imagine that it would be any easier for you to tell the difference. If it matters that much to you then like I said, you take a Kemper to a nice studio with a good room, profile, refine and see how well you do, or later on when I or someone else has spare time lets knock together a track of just random snippets from the web and we'll see how well you do at identifying what's what.
You sat and had to listen carefully to find the difference in a tone that's traditionally considered much harder to nail with a sim (rather than a polished tone which sim's have been producing for years), it wasn't the worlds apart that you claim, I'd say point made.
Sadly I don't have a "good" room to record in, nor time or expertise to ever hope to find what you consider to be good tone, however it's a false assumption to imagine that it would be any easier for you to tell the difference. If it matters that much to you then like I said, you take a Kemper to a nice studio with a good room, profile, refine and see how well you do, or later on when I or someone else has spare time lets knock together a track of just random snippets from the web and we'll see how well you do at identifying what's what.
Ummm, no, I noticed right away that there was a difference between the two clips and the second was louder, brighter and had more noticeable transients....but, because the first clip sounded so bad, I thought for a moment that it was a trick test and that both were sims.
If your goal was to prove that the Kemper can accurately mimic a poorly recorded guitar amp, well then you succeeded (though I was still able to tell the difference). Now, let's hear it match a properly recorded amp.
Also, you seem to be forgetting that i mentioned up-thread that I have listened to a bunch of Kemper demos and they don't sound right to me.
I concur - I am always scratching my head when people praise Line6, AxeFX, Kemper, etc - whenever I listen to demos, they all sound terrible to me - no comparison to real amps.
ha. go listen to the amp factory profiles for the kemper.
ha. go listen to the amp factory profiles for the kemper.
I already did - see my posts from earlier today. I am not impressed - I have used and recorded with several of the amps they have modeled and their demos don't sound very accurate to me.
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