Is Digital Amp modeling the future of guitar tone?

[chap]

Also, why is it an 'argument'? There are plenty of guys who hit the stage with a Moog and a Mac and sound great. As always, if it sounds good, use it. There will be a hybrid rig soon enough. Will I ever let go of tube amps? Nah, they feel too good.

[soundgear]

I just bought a new Line6 X3 Pro .
Havnt even turned it on yet.
I should have bought new tubes for my Mesa Road King2 .


Answer FxxK I hope not

I use Direct or modelling tones for tracking drums or a band LIVE off the floor to eliminate bleed

[mdme_sadie]

You bought an X3 pro? New? Eeek, sorry but the X3 to my ears is pretty horrible, i didn't realize that Line6 were still selling them. I would seriously consider returning it and getting something from the HD series (the pro's are exactly the same as the bean's/floor units exceopt for form factor and very slightly different inputs, the processing and internals are all the same) or an 11Rack instead, maybe even an old second hand AxeFX standard or Ultra for the money. You'd be much happier.

@Rotaholic - Sure eventually that will happen, but right now the latency involved in using even the best convertors makes the whole experience painful for guitarists (sure it's easier for engineers, but truly horrible as a guitarist), and current VST amp sims just sound like total ass, the best of the bunch IMO is S-Gear, but it's still awful sounding and playing IMO. Dedicated hardware units offer lots of connectivity, tend to be pretty sturdily built for live use, offer sufficiently low latency that you don't feel you're playing with permanent slapback echo on, and in the studio reduce processing overhead from your DAW (compared to VST's). Same arguments for most outboard gear really in that instance. Eventually I'm certain it'll take over completely, but at this moment in time hardware still has it's place and advantage.

@JamesN - You clearly haven't been paying attention to the examples posted in this thread or to current music production. Right now the Kemper sounds and plays that well, not in ten years time. And people have been producing albums using amp sims for decades. This isn't new technology, but it certainly has improved dramatically over the past few years. Your argument reads like someone who's stuck with an old opinion from years ago that you keep on using with keeping up to date and checking out what's out there to see if it still holds true. It simply doesn't, at this point you can run a sim such as the Kemper directly against a guitarists favorite amp as they play both side by side and they are hard pressed to tell which is the real amp and which is the KPA.

That doesn't mean the death of the real amp, it just means more options being available to engineers and musicians. Just as the electric guitar didn't sign the death knell of acoustic guitars, nor DI bass recording in the 50's and 60's mean no more bass amps.

@Chap - you can make hybrid rigs right now if you want. The Line6 DT50/HD500 combo is an example of a custom made rig and apparently sounds pretty good, however you can run any modeler into a tube based poweramp if you want, although the requirement for that is personal choice, the top of the line modelers sound plenty good enough IMO direct without needing any tubes to "warm things up", however whether you amplify via tube or solid state you are still going to want a nice powerful speaker to push that air required for the truly organic guitar experience.

[Jayrawk]

The quality of sound is subjective. Everyone is chasing a sound and that sound is usually the sound of the records that have inspired the artist/producer to want to become a musician or engineer. It is very possible that kids who have grown up listening too and falling in love with records that use modelers and plugins will eventually try to get that same sound later as an adult. There are a number of popular records that have been tracked with pod farm and Im sure the kids who love those records will try to emulate that sound of pod farm with their own amps, but will fail.

With that said F*c* modelers. Tube amps rule.

[Jayrawk]

Honestly, Studio Devil, S-gear and Brainworx Rockrack are all pretty great for plugin amp sims. Also, if I had an opportunity to actually play a Kemper I might actually end up buying one. I have heard some great clips from the KPA.

[chrisj]

I came up with a tone where the modeling destroys the real amp (used with the same 'speaker', an IR.)

Djent.

I was trying to really get a 'djent' tone right, knowing that some of the practitioners go for software, knowing what the sound basically was about- pick attack becomes a hard, opaque wall and the distortion is REALLY gritty. I tried a Poulin Lecto plugin up against an Engl 530- same real TS9 pedal driving it, same API 3124 pre handling the direct in and sending it to the converter, same 'God Cab' speaker impulse and same master buss chain.

What happened (only got the Lecto for an example though) was this: the plugin was blockier and its attack was fatter and a lot thicker and more solid. The Engl (real amp pre, correct for the genre too though the Poulin that corresponds to it would be the 456 not the Lecto) was clearly more analogy and hotter-sounding but totally not as blocky and aggressive- it took up less space and hit totally differently- instead of hitting like a snare, the attack hit like a hi-hat, it was toppier and a lot less dense.

So the real tube-powered physical-hardware amp FOR THIS TONE sounded 'better' but worked worse and didn't hit at all right.

I'm going to fool around with other Poulin plugins for other tones and see how far they get- I do feel the Poulins destroy the other amp modelers I've tried (the Logic stuff, and Johnson J-Station, and what I've heard of the commercial ampsims and PODs. I understand PODs can also do the opaque-attack djent thing, but I don't like the sound and I do like the Poulin Lecto's sound)

[mdme_sadie]

I'm sorry to say but I don't think your sim example sounds in the right territory, to me it sounds like a basic fuzz sim or DI sound to me not at all compelling or close to a real amp sound. I also gotta say I think you're incorrect in your analysis of the Djent tone. To me "Djent" or "Doom" sound depends more on your tuning than the amp or sim that you use. Detune a lot further to get that sound, all the way till the strings are pretty slack and give you that characteristic metalic detune/bend on pick, then clean up your tone quite a bit and use a Mesa Dual or Triple Rec sim of some sort (or real amp), something with a lot of top end bite, or you can scoop the mids and boost the upper range to get some of the "brittleness" that you're hearing as heavy distortion, keep the cab simulation on with it, double track and I think you'll find yourself a lot closer to where you want to be.

[rksguit]

Hmm,this song DEBASSED is real[!] Les Paul/ Marshall 2203 for the lead track,rest is Guitar Rig 5 Player.

MYOWNT is all Guitar Rig 5,and even though it's pretty obvious it's a sim[lack of sustain] I was fairly surprised at the result.

There is NO BASS guitar on either track.

Edit:Now the signature decides to work

rks26's sounds on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

[Jayrawk]

Originally Posted by mdme_sadie

I'm sorry to say but I don't think your sim example sounds in the right territory, to me it sounds like a basic fuzz sim or DI sound to me not at all compelling or close to a real amp sound. I also gotta say I think you're incorrect in your analysis of the Djent tone. To me "Djent" or "Doom" sound depends more on your tuning than the amp or sim that you use. Detune a lot further to get that sound, all the way till the strings are pretty slack and give you that characteristic metalic detune/bend on pick, then clean up your tone quite a bit and use a Mesa Dual or Triple Rec sim of some sort (or real amp), something with a lot of top end bite, or you can scoop the mids and boost the upper range to get some of the "brittleness" that you're hearing as heavy distortion, keep the cab simulation on with it, double track and I think you'll find yourself a lot closer to where you want to be.

I'm afraid I would have to agree. That tone is not at all pleasing and sounds more like a di track with a bigmuff in front of it than a djent tone. Fizzy, fuzzy and overdriven and not in a good way. Listen to bands like periphery, animals as leaders or veil of maya if you want to here what I believe most people feel is a proper djemt tone. Don't forget the noise gate is a huge part of the attack and sound. Joey Sturgis uses pod farm to get all of his djenty sounding tones. I am not personally a fan of that tone, but I do know what it sounds like and how to get it. Get pod farm, load the dual rec model with a tube screamer in front mic it with the condenser and use a noise gate. This tone sounds unlike a real tube amp but djent tones do not sound like a real tube amp anyway. Djent tones sound like an axe fx or pod farm. Cold and digital. I'm not saying its a bad tone because good and bad tone is subjective. I also feel the poulin sim is the most overrated sim and it sounds like garbage. Brainworx rockrack or s-gear, maybe studio devil are the only sims that sound close to a real tube amp.

[chrisj]

Originally Posted by Jayrawk

I'm afraid I would have to agree. That tone is not at all pleasing and sounds more like a di track with a bigmuff in front of it than a djent tone. Fizzy, fuzzy and overdriven and not in a good way. Listen to bands like periphery, animals as leaders or veil of maya if you want to here what I believe most people feel is a proper djemt tone. Don't forget the noise gate is a huge part of the attack and sound. Joey Sturgis uses pod farm to get all of his djenty sounding tones. I am not personally a fan of that tone, but I do know what it sounds like and how to get it. Get pod farm, load the dual rec model with a tube screamer in front mic it with the condenser and use a noise gate. This tone sounds unlike a real tube amp but djent tones do not sound like a real tube amp anyway. Djent tones sound like an axe fx or pod farm. Cold and digital. I'm not saying its a bad tone because good and bad tone is subjective. I also feel the poulin sim is the most overrated sim and it sounds like garbage. Brainworx rockrack or s-gear, maybe studio devil are the only sims that sound close to a real tube amp.

I guess I can see the problem- I didn't know about Animals As Leaders being djent. I was thinking more Frederik Thordendal- like this one, which I first heard with him playing it, just him and a drummer Fredrik Thordendal's Special Defects - Sol Niger Within [HD] - YouTube

The way the attack hits is way brighter and way more opaque than AAL- starting at 4:03 is exactly the kind of guitar noise I mean, which I thought that was djent. It's incredibly solid and opaque and that's what I wanted, had to do a lot of freaky high-boosting to get it.

I thought THAT was what djent was- whether it is or not, my notion is that real amps don't do THAT as well as modelers do because modelers change the attack in a funny way, making it 'blockier' and breaking it up.

It seems like when Meshuggah went from Chaosphere to albums like Nothing and ObZen, the guitars took on this capacity to hit percussively like little snares and that's what I'm talking about- I'm aware that some people think those are terrible tones and they sure aren't anything like AAL but what Thordendal is doing with them is really interesting to me and that's what I think modeling is able to do better than real amps. Chaosphere at least sounds really cool and much 'warmer' and deeper but it just plain doesn't work the same, it's different.

This one is a really good example of what I was thinking of- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjzIBI3jkKY Shed off Catch Thirty Three, and though it's not as harsh as ObZen it's still doing the same things...

[Jayrawk]

Originally Posted by chrisj

I guess I can see the problem- I didn't know about Animals As Leaders being djent. I was thinking more Frederik Thordendal- like this one, which I first heard with him playing it, just him and a drummer Fredrik Thordendal's Special Defects - Sol Niger Within [HD] - YouTube

The way the attack hits is way brighter and way more opaque than AAL- starting at 4:03 is exactly the kind of guitar noise I mean, which I thought that was djent. It's incredibly solid and opaque and that's what I wanted, had to do a lot of freaky high-boosting to get it.

I thought THAT was what djent was- whether it is or not, my notion is that real amps don't do THAT as well as modelers do because modelers change the attack in a funny way, making it 'blockier' and breaking it up.

It seems like when Meshuggah went from Chaosphere to albums like Nothing and ObZen, the guitars took on this capacity to hit percussively like little snares and that's what I'm talking about- I'm aware that some people think those are terrible tones and they sure aren't anything like AAL but what Thordendal is doing with them is really interesting to me and that's what I think modeling is able to do better than real amps. Chaosphere at least sounds really cool and much 'warmer' and deeper but it just plain doesn't work the same, it's different.

This one is a really good example of what I was thinking of- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjzIBI3jkKY Shed off Catch Thirty Three, and though it's not as harsh as ObZen it's still doing the same things...

I agree I think that ultra high gain, bright, scooped mids, extremely percussive, noise gated, exaggerated pick attack is djent and i think meshuggah is the band who inspired all these other bands to chase that sound. I also agree that software is a way better and an easier way to achieve this artificial sound. With all do respect I just didn't think the tone that you posted with poulin achieved that. No disrespect just what my ears heard. Just a matter of opinion. I honestly am not really in to seven string pointy guitars and digital amps with no mid range, so I am far from an expert in the area of djent. I am more a fan of old fender amps with analog pedals in front. Basically the in utero sound I find very organic and appealing. So take my opinion as someone who prefers the Albini sound to the radio shacky artificial sound of modern computerized djent core.

[mdme_sadie]

The trouble is that all that attack in Djent really comes from a very clean bass guitar (which due to the low tuning shares a lot of the same frequencies as the main guitars). You can't ascribe it all to one instrument but rather to the arrangement. The majority of the DJent tone in the two examples posted is from that low tuned bass, while the guitars could be BG synths for all that matters.

[Jayrawk]

Originally Posted by mdme_sadie

The trouble is that all that attack in Djent really comes from a very clean bass guitar (which due to the low tuning shares a lot of the same frequencies as the main guitars). You can't ascribe it all to one instrument but rather to the arrangement. The majority of the DJent tone in the two examples posted is from that low tuned bass, while the guitars could be BG synths for all that matters.

The guitars are tuned way down like to B or Drop A a lot of times so, Im not sure its about the bass at all

[Jayrawk]

For example one of the biggest djent bands right now have no bass player at all just guitars at least one of them being an 8 string guitar.

listen to this.

Animals As Leaders - "CAFO" Prosthetic Records - YouTube

or listen to misha's tone in this video.

Misha Mansoor: The Djent Set #5 (Part 1) - YouTube

[Jayrawk]

Here is a tutorial to achieve this djent sound with pod farm which I believe is the software sim of choice for djentelmen.


Djent tutorial - How to dial in a djent-type tone - YouTube

[zerocrossing]

Originally Posted by joeq

A sure sign that one has lost any argument 'on its merits', is to trot out this particular defense of mediocrity. You are admitting there is a difference, and admitting one is superior to the other, just not admitting that it matters. If YOU know the difference, you will not play the same. If you do not play the same, the audience will be affected whether they are capable of verbalizing it or not.



So the engineers did hear a difference then! My philosophy is that everyone hears everything, the only difference being that engineers and musicians can hear it consciously, or are able verbalize what they hear.

I went into a bar with a friend. There was a rock band that was using electronic drums. I complained about them on way home. My 'civilian' friend did not even 'realize' that they were using electronic drums, but she had come away with a feeling that they were "not very rock and roll", without being able to articulate why.

She is a bright woman, and she certainly would never call me stupid because I could not verbalize the color difference between Eggshell and Bone, which lies in her area of expertise.





You can not be seriously proposing that your own good feelings are irrelevant to how you come across to an audience or disconnected from pure 'sound'?



People are not stupid, so case not made. The ability to verbally 'guess' which is which is not a function of intelligence but of specialized knowledge.

As far as doing what makes you happy, if YOU THE GUITARIST are not happy, even the "stupidest" audience will pick up on that. They may not be able to say: "the tone of the amp sims was only 80% of the way there" but they will be able to say something like: "the band didn't rock as hard" as the last band they saw.

Your contempt for your audience shines through your entire post. In your case, I am sure that you can go with all the shortcuts, and cut corners, and money savers you want, since the people who come to see you are nothing but the Great Unwashed and hardly deserving of your best effort.

I agree with all your points except for the fact that there are times when "fake" can be exploited for good. "Fake" drums like the Simmons and X0X boxes of yesteryear all became classics. For years I've exploited "amp modelers" but I never thought I was fooling myself or anyone else into thinking it was a real amp. Instead I found out what was cool about it and used it to my advantage. Of course, I discarded or avoided things that didn't work. I never liked the Pods... maybe because they're in some guitar amp "uncanny valley?" Close but not close enough? Maybe that's why I never went for an Axe FX... though that was probably more about the cost.

Could my Kemper get fooled by a veteran engineer used to recording guitar amps and listening to great recordings of them? Probably not. Could it fool the average person? Actually, yes. I think it could. That's not important to me though. What's important to me is can it make my guitar sound like I want it to, and the answer to that is yes as well.

There's one video I found made by Anderton's where he was profiling an Orange Dark Terror and he found that it didn't perfectly emulate a flaw in the amp and it actually resulted in a somewhat better version of his amp. We have to remember that there's no real reason technology can't give us better tones than tube amps.

[Jayrawk]

I think your kemper could fool and experienced engineer.

This is the clip that finally convinced me.

Kemper Profiling Amp - Artist talk with Andy Sneap - YouTube

[Rudiger]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

.
The world would see the most insane guitarists ever if people learned how to play guitar properly at an early age and it was widely available and not just for those who are fortunate enough to have access to the gear and be in an environment where you can learn and practice your instrument.

My first guitar didn't cost much. Neither did my son's first guitar. You can even buy them at a supermarket.

In fact, most beginners wrongfully blame their equipment as the source of their problems. It is not. A 20 dollars guitar is more than adequate for someone how is just starting. In fact, no beginner would understand the difference between a Walmart shaped Les Paul and a 58 Gibson.

The thing is: playing guitar has nothing to do with Guitar Hero (which I find as appalling as reading comments on YouTube).

[zerocrossing]

Originally Posted by Jayrawk

I think your kemper could fool and experienced engineer.

This is the clip that finally convinced me.

Kemper Profiling Amp - Artist talk with Andy Sneap - YouTube

Yeah, maybe, maybe. All I know is I was sitting around using my Amplitube and S-Gear, happy as a clam and I heard a Kemper clip... I forget which one now. It got me saving. No demos of other devices did.

[thedommer]

Same here. I heard an ac30, a fuzz modded Marshall and a few others that sounded unbelievable. Placed my order shortly after. Unfortunately it still doesn't have approval to be sold in Canada so I'm still waiting. Should have it soon though. Still enjoy amplitude while I wait. Not a bad program at all. Especially some of the newer amps.

[Mazrak]

For Meshuggah, a huge part of their sound comes from the guitars ridiculously long scale length coupled with the aggressive, almost cocked-wah pickups in the Lundgren M8s. I used real amplifiers and modelers trying to nail their sound for a long time, and once I had a custom guitar built to their specs, it all finally clicked for me. It can really be plugged into about any bright, high gain amplifier and get closed to the signature Meshuggah sound. It's all in the guitar and how you play, not really the amplifier. Mesa amplifiers have been used on most of their albums, and then Mesa sims are used on their modelers for tour. The last album was apparently Cubase VSTs though.

However, djent like all those metalcore bands are doing is a completely different tone altogether.

[Rotaholic]

Originally Posted by Mazrak

For Meshuggah, a huge part of their sound comes from the guitars ridiculously long scale length coupled with the aggressive, almost cocked-wah pickups in the Lundgren M8s. I used real amplifiers and modelers trying to nail their sound for a long time, and once I had a custom guitar built to their specs, it all finally clicked for me. It can really be plugged into about any bright, high gain amplifier and get closed to the signature Meshuggah sound. It's all in the guitar and how you play, not really the amplifier. Mesa amplifiers have been used on most of their albums, and then Mesa sims are used on their modelers for tour. The last album was apparently Cubase VSTs though.

However, djent like all those metalcore bands are doing is a completely different tone altogether.

Im pretty sure the basist uses an old axe fx ultra with a guitar patch into FOH for his live rig?

[Rotaholic]

Originally Posted by Jayrawk

or listen to misha's tone in this video.

Misha Mansoor: The Djent Set #5 (Part 1) - YouTube

Im pretty sure he uses the axe fx II for all his studio recordings and live work?

[mdme_sadie]

Originally Posted by thedommer

Same here. I heard an ac30, a fuzz modded Marshall and a few others that sounded unbelievable. Placed my order shortly after. Unfortunately it still doesn't have approval to be sold in Canada so I'm still waiting. Should have it soon though. Still enjoy amplitude while I wait. Not a bad program at all. Especially some of the newer amps.

Quite a few Canadians have circumvented the whole CSA approval bottleneck that's (still) stopping them from arriving in Canada by ordering them through kingguitar.com who it appears have been able to deliver.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Alrod

"A lot of practical advantages to using amp modeling"

There are also a lot of practical advantages to using a blow up doll for sex:

- Sex anytime
- No Disease
- No commitment
- No having to meet the stupid parents/family
- low maintenance/cheaper
- No talking back
- etc.

But at the end of the day, there ain't nothing like the real thing, and there's no use in pretending that there is. That being said, there are those that would still prefer the doll.

As a guitarist, I am not even remotely impressed with anything to do with amp modeling. Convenient yes, real NO!

No blow up dolls for this guy, sorry.

[AllAboutTone]

I think all the old tube amps are gonna keep going up in price, I can see that already. I play 74 Marshalls and Fuchs amps, I picked up a Sound City 50R today, I had a 120 back in the 80s when I did not take tone that serious. Well I can see why Pete Townsend is about Deaf, the 50R watt will take your head off, amazing harmonics and sustain, I am playing a 76 LP deluxe and a Eric Clapton Blackie, both sound really sweet through it.
Anyways amp modeling to me has not got much better in the last 10 years, even if it has the amp itself is shit, come on amps made in Japan China ? YIKES. I am racking up on all the old tube stuff, may never see it again.
Computers are apart of my DAW, guitars amps ? just isn't gonna happen.

[rksguit]

Well,as far as amp modelling,I think it has its place,and I think real amps are always[for the forseeable future]going to have a physical presence about them that just is ALWAYS going to be connected to ones playing in a way,that sims/digital/moddeling,whatever you want to call it,just doesn't ever quite get,...........unless of course,you put it through a power amp,and into a Quad Box,and there you have it!!!

As far as detuning strings and new buzz words for lowering pitch,with the sound of distortion,to me I always have this problem where "it" just,doesn't translate LIVE very well,all this lowering to sound HEAVY.........well live,a lot of the time it just sounds like mush-not heavy at all.

This for example :Meshuggah - Pravus Live - Soundwave Brisbane 2012.MP4 - YouTube
Yes Yes,I know its just a camera mic' at a gig,but,I mean anything like FREE,or Zeppelin,with same camera/mic,would actually sound like...you know music......I don't know what this sounds like?
RK

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by ShadowAMD

I agree with most people here, oh how I have tried to love amp sims (and spent way too much time messing around with them).. But they sound fake.. Because they are fake.

I have been playing 15 years, I know how to play metal and play it well.. But doesn't sound anything like the real thing to me.

If it does sound like the real thing to you.. You need a new amp or you need to learn how to use it..!!!! !! !! !! :P !! :P

Slam Dunk

[mdme_sadie]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

Slam Dunk

Have you actually used a Kemper? Or even an AxeFX2?

[passmore]

Axe FX 2 is an amazing box....
And it's only going to get better year year.