Buzz Feiten tuning system?

[Fretbored]

I've been wondering the same thing. I have a couple of guitars I'm considering retro-fitting. Anyone?

[jimcroisdale]

It is a worthwhile system, and does work, but I would only consider retro-fitting to guitars that have a specific problem with notes going sharp on the first couple of frets.

And before i did that I'd be looking at adjusting the nut or using heavier strings.

Jim

[Fretbored]

Most definitely. I have 2 guitar I've tweaked for weeks and are fine past the 4th fret, but the main chordal areas are sharp. Sounds like a good option to me.

[robertshaw]

I have it on 1 gtr, my suggestion is just play with more vibrato and buy a nice strobe tuner. Feiten works to a point but still has limitations.

I found having a compensated nut made or installing a 'zero' fret did much of the same or atleast half of what Feiten does since Feiten really does two things. It corrects the bogus spacing of the nut to the first fret and then it implements a tempered tuning system on a gtr much like how a piano is tuned. You can also read up on exactly what Feiten is here Compensated nut for a stringed instrument - US Patent 6433264 Description You can actually make the nut from this and figure out the tuning and intonation intervals (but that would be illegal) ;>)

also keep in mind I believe some gtrs like PRS and others boutique type gtrs already have the correct spacing from the nut to first fret where Gibsons and fenders do not. So make sure your gtr will even benefit from that portion of Feiten mod.

It all depends. I would read up on tempered tuning to get a better feel for what it is and read its good and bad points. Since Feiten is not ALL good but it is good for some situations. You need to research it. My thing with it is, guys like Vai rave about it in advertisements but then listen to any stuff he did in the 80's without it and it is still flawless. So I'm not sure what to conclude? Watch 'crossroads' w/ ralph maccio and see what I'm talking about. Jack butler didn't use it and nothing sound better than that showdown

The way I always got around the imperfections of a guitar in the studio was I would tune the guitar to a piano depending on the part of the song whatever key the part of the song. Pain in the butt but not even Feiten is perfect so you will always have to make adjustments. Sure this is useless live if that is your reason for getting a tempered tuning system. But in the studio nothing beats tuning your guitar to a piano based on the different sections and keys/scales of a song. This method does require intense knowledge of the gtr scale positions and how they correlate to a piano so it is not easy but is flawless if you read up on it. Since in general you never want to tune a guitar to a piano since piano is unequal tempered and gtr is even. But if you had a section of a song in G, tune the guitar to the piano based on G and the position strings in the scale you would use for the G scale. There are web sites on this. But again if you look into unequal temperaments it will all make sense.

The bottom line is the design of the guitar is flawed but its always been that way and people have been using it flawed and done great things with it. You just have to make adjustments in your playing.
read up on circle of fifths and tempered tuning. Also check out earvana or enut plus there are others out there.

Lastly do not be fooled by this Feiten 'invention' he did not invent this system he was the smart one who patented it. Luthiers have done this stuff for 100's of years making compensated nuts. Also studio players have long re-tuned to a piano for sections of songs. He did a nice job marketing it. And he is a great player in his own right. Butterfield Blues Band‎ was real cool.

here's some links

Earvana - Compensated Tuning Systems for Guitars
eNut Tuning Ststem - Monte Allums Mods
The Well-Tempered Guitar
Tuning Methods
Circle of Fifths Chart

[Musiclab]

I have an earvana nut on 2 guitars, one was an Ash Lite Strat that had a crappy nut so I swapped it out for the Earvana, that guitar went from being unreliable with tuning to being dead on. And the huge difference is in 1st position. Since then I replaced the nut on a G Custom tele with one of an Earvana. What I like about these besides the tuning is your not totally hacking into your guitar. If you wanted to go back to a standard nut it's no problem.

[Fretbored]

If I'm honest, I only care most about the sharpness of the E string on the 3rd fret. That's annoying. Whoever can fix it gets my business.

[taturana]

Originally Posted by Fretbored

If I'm honest, I only care most about the sharpness of the E string on the 3rd fret. That's annoying. Whoever can fix it gets my business.

+ 1

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

I have it on 1 gtr, my suggestion is just play with more vibrato and buy a nice strobe tuner. Feiten works to a point but still has limitations.

I found having a compensated nut made or installing a 'zero' fret did much of the same or atleast half of what Feiten does since Feiten really does two things. It corrects the bogus spacing of the nut to the first fret and then it implements a tempered tuning system on a gtr much like how a piano is tuned. You can also read up on exactly what Feiten is here Compensated nut for a stringed instrument - US Patent 6433264 Description You can actually make the nut from this and figure out the tuning and intonation intervals (but that would be illegal) ;>)

also keep in mind I believe some gtrs like PRS and others boutique type gtrs already have the correct spacing from the nut to first fret where Gibsons and fenders do not. So make sure your gtr will even benefit from that portion of Feiten mod.

It all depends. I would read up on tempered tuning to get a better feel for what it is and read its good and bad points. Since Feiten is not ALL good but it is good for some situations. You need to research it. My thing with it is, guys like Vai rave about it in advertisements but then listen to any stuff he did in the 80's without it and it is still flawless. So I'm not sure what to conclude? Watch 'crossroads' w/ ralph maccio and see what I'm talking about. Jack butler didn't use it and nothing sound better than that showdown

The way I always got around the imperfections of a guitar in the studio was I would tune the guitar to a piano depending on the part of the song whatever key the part of the song. Pain in the butt but not even Feiten is perfect so you will always have to make adjustments. Sure this is useless live if that is your reason for getting a tempered tuning system. But in the studio nothing beats tuning your guitar to a piano based on the different sections and keys/scales of a song. This method does require intense knowledge of the gtr scale positions and how they correlate to a piano so it is not easy but is flawless if you read up on it. Since in general you never want to tune a guitar to a piano since piano is unequal tempered and gtr is even. But if you had a section of a song in G, tune the guitar to the piano based on G and the position strings in the scale you would use for the G scale. There are web sites on this. But again if you look into unequal temperaments it will all make sense.

The bottom line is the design of the guitar is flawed but its always been that way and people have been using it flawed and done great things with it. You just have to make adjustments in your playing.
read up on circle of fifths and tempered tuning. Also check out earvana or enut plus there are others out there.

Lastly do not be fooled by this Feiten 'invention' he did not invent this system he was the smart one who patented it. Luthiers have done this stuff for 100's of years making compensated nuts. Also studio players have long re-tuned to a piano for sections of songs. He did a nice job marketing it. And he is a great player in his own right. Butterfield Blues Band‎ was real cool.

here's some links

Earvana - Compensated Tuning Systems for Guitars
eNut Tuning Ststem - Monte Allums Mods
The Well-Tempered Guitar
Tuning Methods
Circle of Fifths Chart

Hey neighbor! Thanks for all the great information, I thank all posters. I like the motto "If it aint broke dont fix it" I dont really have any specific issues with tuning, I use a Peterson VSAM tuner in equal temperament mode and think it is a good compromise.
VP

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

Hey neighbor! Thanks for all the great information, I thank all posters. I like the motto "If it aint broke dont fix it" I dont really have any specific issues with tuning, I use a Peterson VSAM tuner in equal temperament mode and think it is a good compromise.
VP

Dude you would not be able to play in any other temperament than 12 tet on a conventional guitar. What other temperament did you try?

Tuning = Compromise = learn to maximise and live with it.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

Dude you would not be able to play in any other temperament than 12 tet on a conventional guitar. What other temperament did you try?

Tuning = Compromise = learn to maximise and live with it.

Hi Mutt,
Obviously, all my guitars have 12 intervals to the octave. I have tried the other tunings that come with the Peterson, a total of 14 I think are selectable. I wasnt impressed with any of them except of course the tried and true 12 tone equal temperament tuning. Lets give a round of applause to the magical number: "2 to the 1/12 power"!
VP

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

Hi Mutt,
Obviously, all my guitars have 12 intervals to the octave. I have tried the other tunings that come with the Peterson, a total of 14 I think are selectable. I wasnt impressed with any of them except of course the tried and true 12 tone equal temperament tuning. Lets give a round of applause to the magical number: "2 to the 1/12 power"!
VP

I'm not surprised they sounded shit your guitar frets are not in the right place to play in any just or meantone system other than 12 tet?

For the last time what is this mutt thing? He seems ike a nice guy.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

I'm not surprised they sounded shit your guitar frets are not in the right place to play in any just or meantone system other than 12 tet?

For the last time what is this mutt thing? He seems ike a nice guy.

The ones I tried WERE meant for guitar, are you not familiar with the VSAM? As if you dont know what "the Mutt thing" is. I really prefer the way you handle yourself here, you arent so abusive and vulgar. I know, they dont tolerate that here, did they already warn you?
VP

[TalcumMclaren]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

The ones I tried WERE meant for guitar, are you not familiar with the VSAM? As if you dont know what "the Mutt thing" is. I really prefer the way you handle yourself here, you arent so abusive and vulgar. I know, they dont tolerate that here, did they already warn you?
VP

Dude I ain't muttley600 but I now know who he is. He's OK and very knowledgeable so what?

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

Dude I ain't muttley600 but I now know who he is. He's OK and very knowledgeable so what?

Okay Paul,
I have some pictures of a bass I will be working on. It is a handmade 5 string fretless. The customer wants a few coats of gloss nitro and he wants me to install a new bridge or fix the existing one. He says it wont intonate. As you can see it has fret markers on it. I tested the intonation and it seems right on. However I stopped the notes right on the lines, I wonder if he was going between them. Interesting isnt it?
VP

PS I couldnt resist a picture of my newest axe, a RIC 360/12. It came with only 6 adjustable saddles. They sell an optional 12 saddle bridge, it is $125. That is a lot but I will order one when they come off backorder status. A 12 string electric really needs all strings to be intonated.

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by TalcumMclaren

Dude you would not be able to play in any other temperament than 12 tet on a conventional guitar. What other temperament did you try?

Tuning = Compromise = learn to maximise and live with it.

for me it has always been G string. Now I just use a wound G. Which solved the 'metallic G' annoyance but now it's so heavy I can't bend the damn thing

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

for me it has always been G string. Now I just use a wound G. Which solved the 'metallic G' annoyance but now it's so heavy I can't bend the damn thing

man up

[Musiclab]

my advice would be if you have aguitar where the nut kinda sucks anyway, try the earvana

[octatonic]

I have Feiten on 4 guitars, earvana on 2 and the rest are normal.

I much prefer Feiten for tuning, but it is more of a PITA to set up.

[Claes Cornelius]

I got a Washburn JB-100 MIDI as soon as it came out. I use it a lot for MIDI (sequencer stuff) and it works perfectly in that context

[rob S]

I have the feiten on one gtuitar that would not intonate in a usable way.
It seemed to do the trick.
Now it is very in tune.

[fastlanestoner]

Buzz Feiten is a proven system. Great balance, but if you have to perform a retrofit you may still have issues. If the guitar is manufactured with it you're better off.

[tstrahle]

I've had the Feiten system on my main Strat for years now. It did seem to help with my intonation. Not so much that I've done it to other instruments though.

[cwillms]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

I have an earvana nut on 2 guitars, one was an Ash Lite Strat that had a crappy nut so I swapped it out for the Earvana, that guitar went from being unreliable with tuning to being dead on. And the huge difference is in 1st position. Since then I replaced the nut on a G Custom tele with one of an Earvana. What I like about these besides the tuning is your not totally hacking into your guitar. If you wanted to go back to a standard nut it's no problem.

I also have Eavana's on 2 Fenders that went from being perennial tuning nightmares in a studio setting to being near perfect. Going from open G to D to C perfect. The real test is open F, near perfect. Have not had to do this on my Les Paul or PRS.

I am an Earvana advocate - I was not at all interested in the Feiten system because it seemed far too radical and the Earvana did the same thing without really altering the guitar. Just keep the original nut if you go to sell it, some buyers, especially for higher end guitars, want the original equipment.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Fretbored

If I'm honest, I only care most about the sharpness of the E string on the 3rd fret. That's annoying. Whoever can fix it gets my business.

It seems to me that a lot of people's complaints about their guitars fall into two areas:

a) specific problems with a specific guitar's intonation

b) a misunderstanding of the nature of 12 Tone Equal Temperament that 'expects' 12TET intervals to be in tune

The ONLY intervals in 12TET which are perfectly 'in tune' are the octaves.

This is the nature of the beast. If it was otherwise, we wouldn't be able to easily modulate or transpose (without retuning).

12TET makes modern music possible -- but, 'paradoxically' it appears to make all of that music slightly 'out of tune.'

But if you tinker your intonation to favor a specific key -- you will be moving the intonation farther 'out of tune' on other keys.


In the post quoted above, his instrument may well have an intonation problem -- but even if his intonation is perfect, if he is, for instance, playing in E minor and he plays that G (as a minor third interval), the 12TET minor third (G), in this context will be a whopping ~16 cents flat from the mathematically correct 'Just' minor third. The major third, conversely, is ~14 sharp of the Just intonation.

Only the perfect fourth, fifth are nearly correct (about 2 cents off); the major second is about 4 cents off. The rest are off by double digits.

Equal temperament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is why even a 'perfectly' in tune 12TET instrument like a guitar or conventional keyboard/synth produces slightly out of tune triads, why you hear beat tones when playing, say, a major third triad.


And, of course, with wire-stringed instruments like steel string guitars and pianos, there is also the issue of inharmonicity of such strings when precise double lengths do not actually produce perfect octave differences. Having to do with how vibrations travel in such wire strings, it's a complex topic. We call intonations that try to address this harmonicity with tinkered intonation, stretch or stretched tunings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning


I just read the landing page for the Earvana system. The compensated nut may work to compensate for inharmonicity of steel strings; the product may well be useful in some cases -- but their marketing claims are bull.

A perfectly in tune 12TET instrument like a guitar or conventional keyboard cannot possibly deliver perfectly harmonic chords (no beat tones) and intervals (other than octaves) -- because THAT IS THE NATURE OF 12 TONE EQUAL TEMPERAMENT. Out of tune intervals. Get used to it and stop buying into bullshit marketing.

This is the SAME KIND OF BS MARKETING used to dazzle and confuse audiophiles. "Tune In to the Laws of Physics." My ass.

[loaf]

I got talked into the feiten for my strat - it is good, but I still feel like I've violated some universal law

[popmann]

I played an Anderson strat next to a custom shop fender...and, I'm sure it wasn't JUST the intonation, but the Anderson sounded great...just not like a Strat.

I don't know--I've player a lot of years...kinda developed dynamically bending into better tune as part of playing...while it obviously only goes one way...I find myself with a maj6 interval sharpening the root (top) so that the maj third of the chord is relatively flat, as it should be. I kinda think that certain amounts of intonation make a player more unique. Maybe if I believed the Feiten system would put the whole neck into perfect "just" intonation, I'd go...but, then there's always going to be finger pressure it can't compensate for...so, is it just making it more forgiving? That was my impression. Wouldn't mind having a guitar built for it from the ground up...but, I'm not sure Id have any interest in modifying a strat or LP or anything that has "it's sound".

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Here is a question: Let me preface it by saying that I bought a Peterson tuner, and experimented with the 'sweetened' tuning. I took it to a jam session and had to switch back to the 'regular' tuning because the sweetened tuning didn't work while playing along with non-sweetened guitars. It sounded as though someone was out of tune.

If your guitar has been rendered 'perfect' (or just made different) by any of these systems, does that affect the ability to blend with other non-perfect stringed instruments?

[laser]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

Here is a question: Let me preface it by saying that I bought a Peterson tuner, and experimented with the 'sweetened' tuning. I took it to a jam session and had to switch back to the 'regular' tuning because the sweetened tuning didn't work while playing along with non-sweetened guitars. It sounded as though someone was out of tune.

If your guitar has been rendered 'perfect' (or just made different) by any of these systems, does that affect the ability to blend with other non-perfect stringed instruments?

Yes, especially when the other non-perfect string instrument is playing chords. A better way of saying it, you notice the intonation imperfections of the other non-perfect stringed instrument more vs. a normal guitar.

One exception: I find the Feiten/sweetened guitar sounds better (and blends better) if the other non-perfect string instrument has really good (not perfect or sweetened) intonation.

I've also found the Feiten/Petersen sweetened sounds and blends extremely well (much better than a normal guitar) when playing with keyboardists.

Since I enjoy playing with keyboardists more than playing with other guitarists with intonation problems, I continue to use it.

Laser