Mic placement for christmas recording, need help fast

jakromm · 18th December 2006, 03:08 PM

Ok, so my fiancee just decided to make some christmas recordings as a last minute idea. The room will be an all brick, almost cathedral shaped like hall, but smaller. It seats about 200 people. The piano is a steinway D up on stage. I normally wouldn't have to ask, but since I don't have time to goof around, and this is my first time using alot of my new gear, I need some input.

I have...

jecklin disc (homemade)
oktava 012 pair modded, card and omni capsules
oktava 319 pair UNMODDED, cardioid (I can mod them tonight if needed)
motu 896 - not important
laptop with adobe audition - not important

Here are my thoughts

1.) Just go minimalist and use the pair of 012 omnis with the jecklin disc, and if I really want I can put up the 319 in ORTF (90 degree version) so I have a second choice if it dosn't turn out quite right

2.) 319 in ORTF(90 degree version) about 6 feet back, with the 012 in omni in AB about 12 feet back

reason I am using the 319 in 90 degrees is I hear that LDC aren't quite as wide as SDC, and I also hear that the 319 is a very directional mic, all the more reason.

Let me know your thoughts! If you have anything to say no matter how stupid you might think it is please post :D

d_fu · 18th December 2006, 03:26 PM

You might want to tell us what you are going to record... Just the piano?

Studiodawg · 18th December 2006, 05:09 PM

How far away can you get and how tall is your mic stand (s)??

Jim vanBergen · 18th December 2006, 06:01 PM

Your first thought is a good one. I'd set up 2 pairs of mics, A/B them quickly, and go with what works if you don't have time/resources to record both pairs.

We DO need to know- solo piano? Voice? Will the hall be empty? Seated?

Assuming the hall is empty and you want the sound of the hall, I'd try to go about six to nine feet away at no less than 6' in the air, trying to go seven to nine feet with a gentle focus. Are you planning on full stick, half stick, closed?

If this is NOT really classical content, I'd move in closer for less reverberent/reflection source and more direct. With the omnis, you can get right in on the strings, too...

justa few thoughts.

Jim

jakromm · 18th December 2006, 07:01 PM

Sorry, been busy at work and havn't been able to check the thread to now.

It is just solo piano of christmas songs, empty room, full stick.

Unfortunately my mic stands are sooooo shitty, but height isn't a problem because I put them on top of tables and chairs if necessary :P

pkautzsch · 18th December 2006, 11:15 PM

Why 90° ORTF? I prefer spaced-only setups (which also work with cardioids, don't they) like 1ft spacing for close-ish piano. Plus a good spaced omni pair as main mic.
I don't like J-Disc: baffled setups give nice separation, yes, and with pressure transducers they also give good bass response, BUT they don't give that bass decorrelation you need for REALLY spacious sound - and spaciousness is the only of the three that also works in non-optimum listening conditions like living-rooms or cheaper speakers. But that's also a matter of taste.

jakromm · 19th December 2006, 03:17 PM

It might have been mis-information, but I heard that large condensors are alot more directional, and don't have as much "width" then a small condensor. I was giong to use 90 degree to help close any gap that would be a result of that. Modding these 319s is looking alot harder then I thought circuitry wise. The revision I have isn't documented at all in the article, so I am trying to get some help from the gear nerd forum.

It seems like everyone thinks I should do the ORTF with omni AB? But maybe bring them in a bit closer to like 4 feet back 4-5 feet high for ORTF and 8 feet back 6-8 feet high for AB?

How far apart should the AB pair be? I never done AB so I could use some sort of estimate thanks.

pkautzsch · 19th December 2006, 04:19 PM

LDCs are not as consistent in their pattern as are SDCs. The typical LDC cardioid is a super-cardioid at somewhat like 4 kHz and nearly an omni at 300 Hz; the actual "cardioid" pattern is achieved only at 1 kHz. Typical SDC cardioid is a cardioid at 300 Hz, as well as at 4 kHz. It's a wide cardioid at 150 Hz and a super-cardioid at 8 kHz, maybe.

How far you space the AB pair depends on your taste. As a rough guide:
50 cm allow for the sound source to be in the entire half-circle (180°),
90 cm allow about 70°, ie. everything more than 35° from the centre axis will be heard in only one speaker. If you have a closer pair, the AB pair can be wider spaced to get more spaciousness, since the image will come from the closer pair.

jakromm · 19th December 2006, 04:45 PM

I have seen people micing with the AB pair nearly 2-3 feet apart, but do you only do this if you have a strong center main pair such as a blumlein? I am guessing because the ORTF is a very wide image with a weak center the ORTF will be mixed hard left and hard right, how would the AB pair be panned if they were about a foot apart? I guess I will have to do some quick adjustments while I am there :P

mrsteaks · 19th December 2006, 05:01 PM

Here's what I just did, and it worked nicely in a similar room to what you've described. I used a Blumlien pair (a Royer SF-12) ten feet back and 9 feet up, along with a 6 foot spaced pair (SDC EW SR-71's) four feet back and nine feet up. It sounded very good. You can control the blend of the room X/Y pair and spaced pair, adding or subtracting "room".

My .02 cents....

Mark S.
Pretty Good Recordings/PGR Media

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18th December 2006, 03:08 PM	#1
jakromm Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 218	Mic placement for christmas recording, need help fast Ok, so my fiancee just decided to make some christmas recordings as a last minute idea. The room will be an all brick, almost cathedral shaped like hall, but smaller. It seats about 200 people. The piano is a steinway D up on stage. I normally wouldn't have to ask, but since I don't have time to goof around, and this is my first time using alot of my new gear, I need some input. I have... jecklin disc (homemade) oktava 012 pair modded, card and omni capsules oktava 319 pair UNMODDED, cardioid (I can mod them tonight if needed) motu 896 - not important laptop with adobe audition - not important Here are my thoughts 1.) Just go minimalist and use the pair of 012 omnis with the jecklin disc, and if I really want I can put up the 319 in ORTF (90 degree version) so I have a second choice if it dosn't turn out quite right 2.) 319 in ORTF(90 degree version) about 6 feet back, with the 012 in omni in AB about 12 feet back reason I am using the 319 in 90 degrees is I hear that LDC aren't quite as wide as SDC, and I also hear that the 319 is a very directional mic, all the more reason. Let me know your thoughts! If you have anything to say no matter how stupid you might think it is please post :D

18th December 2006, 11:15 PM	#6
pkautzsch Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 992	Why 90° ORTF? I prefer spaced-only setups (which also work with cardioids, don't they) like 1ft spacing for close-ish piano. Plus a good spaced omni pair as main mic. I don't like J-Disc: baffled setups give nice separation, yes, and with pressure transducers they also give good bass response, BUT they don't give that bass decorrelation you need for REALLY spacious sound - and spaciousness is the only of the three that also works in non-optimum listening conditions like living-rooms or cheaper speakers. But that's also a matter of taste. __________________ Microphones always make me sound louder and better! -- Guitar Girl

19th December 2006, 04:19 PM	#8
pkautzsch Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 992	LDCs are not as consistent in their pattern as are SDCs. The typical LDC cardioid is a super-cardioid at somewhat like 4 kHz and nearly an omni at 300 Hz; the actual "cardioid" pattern is achieved only at 1 kHz. Typical SDC cardioid is a cardioid at 300 Hz, as well as at 4 kHz. It's a wide cardioid at 150 Hz and a super-cardioid at 8 kHz, maybe. How far you space the AB pair depends on your taste. As a rough guide: 50 cm allow for the sound source to be in the entire half-circle (180°), 90 cm allow about 70°, ie. everything more than 35° from the centre axis will be heard in only one speaker. If you have a closer pair, the AB pair can be wider spaced to get more spaciousness, since the image will come from the closer pair. __________________ Microphones always make me sound louder and better! -- Guitar Girl

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18th December 2006, 03:26 PM	#2
d_fu Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 1,449	You might want to tell us what you are going to record... Just the piano?

18th December 2006, 05:09 PM	#3
Studiodawg Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 75	How far away can you get and how tall is your mic stand (s)??

18th December 2006, 06:01 PM	#4
Jim vanBergen Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New York Friggin' City Posts: 2,295	Your first thought is a good one. I'd set up 2 pairs of mics, A/B them quickly, and go with what works if you don't have time/resources to record both pairs. We DO need to know- solo piano? Voice? Will the hall be empty? Seated? Assuming the hall is empty and you want the sound of the hall, I'd try to go about six to nine feet away at no less than 6' in the air, trying to go seven to nine feet with a gentle focus. Are you planning on full stick, half stick, closed? If this is NOT really classical content, I'd move in closer for less reverberent/reflection source and more direct. With the omnis, you can get right in on the strings, too... justa few thoughts. Jim

18th December 2006, 07:01 PM	#5
jakromm Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 218	Sorry, been busy at work and havn't been able to check the thread to now. It is just solo piano of christmas songs, empty room, full stick. Unfortunately my mic stands are sooooo shitty, but height isn't a problem because I put them on top of tables and chairs if necessary :P

19th December 2006, 03:17 PM	#7
jakromm Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 218	It might have been mis-information, but I heard that large condensors are alot more directional, and don't have as much "width" then a small condensor. I was giong to use 90 degree to help close any gap that would be a result of that. Modding these 319s is looking alot harder then I thought circuitry wise. The revision I have isn't documented at all in the article, so I am trying to get some help from the gear nerd forum. It seems like everyone thinks I should do the ORTF with omni AB? But maybe bring them in a bit closer to like 4 feet back 4-5 feet high for ORTF and 8 feet back 6-8 feet high for AB? How far apart should the AB pair be? I never done AB so I could use some sort of estimate thanks.

19th December 2006, 04:45 PM	#9
jakromm Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 218	I have seen people micing with the AB pair nearly 2-3 feet apart, but do you only do this if you have a strong center main pair such as a blumlein? I am guessing because the ORTF is a very wide image with a weak center the ORTF will be mixed hard left and hard right, how would the AB pair be panned if they were about a foot apart? I guess I will have to do some quick adjustments while I am there :P

19th December 2006, 05:01 PM	#10
mrsteaks Gear addict Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: seaside, california Posts: 326	Here's what I just did, and it worked nicely in a similar room to what you've described. I used a Blumlien pair (a Royer SF-12) ten feet back and 9 feet up, along with a 6 foot spaced pair (SDC EW SR-71's) four feet back and nine feet up. It sounded very good. You can control the blend of the room X/Y pair and spaced pair, adding or subtracting "room". My .02 cents.... Mark S. Pretty Good Recordings/PGR Media