The end of the "big desk" in the trucks?

[profaders]

"Are all these features really necessary...?" asks a contributor to the Audio Oracle site today? Are manufacturers dropping off features in order to meet a price point? It's a topic started by a US contributor in The Oracle and one we'd like to share with our friends here in Gearslutz.

You can see the full posting:
http://audio-oracle.com/oracle/showthread.php?t=175

[Roland]

Originally Posted by profaders

"Are all these features really necessary...?" asks a contributor to the Audio Oracle site today? Are manufacturers dropping off features in order to meet a price point? It's a topic started by a US contributor in The Oracle and one we'd like to share with our friends here in Gearslutz.

You can see the full posting:
http://audio-oracle.com/oracle/showthread.php?t=175

He's ignoring the fact that the latest "broadcast" trucks are all fitted out with things like Euphonix system 5, Studer Vista 8's, digital sure, but far more facilities than their analogue counterparts had room to offer. Yamaha DM2000's are, I am sure, as he mentions usuable for a lot of jobs, but I don't think people are looking to replace their SSL analogues with them. I get the feeling his post is loaded to promote his view of the "decline" of the industry (or maybe just his work).

Regards


Roland

[Remoteness]

For Aura Sonic, the end of the large desk in audio trucks happened in the late 90s.
You can still pack a big punch with a totally modular approach. You just bring what you need.
The control surface can change depending on what's applicable to the production.

If you want a large desk bring it.
If you don't need the physical fader count or extra feature you don't have to use it.
I like this flexibility.

[profaders]

Originally Posted by Roland

He's ignoring the fact that the latest "broadcast" trucks are all fitted out with things like Euphonix system 5, Studer Vista 8's, digital sure, but far more facilities than their analogue counterparts had room to offer. Yamaha DM2000's are, I am sure, as he mentions usuable for a lot of jobs, but I don't think people are looking to replace their SSL analogues with them. I get the feeling his post is loaded to promote his view of the "decline" of the industry (or maybe just his work).

Regards


Roland

The "latest" broadcast trucks are not "all" fitted out using the manufacturers you state. In fact, in the US they are the minority among the high-end mobile production trucks. Calrec for one has led the charge in this field since 1997, starting with the S2 and Q2 - you also missed off Lawo et al.

Think you're wrong about the SSL comment - SSL never had a look-in in the broadcast trucks - not even analogue. But I think this is where the understanding of what "broadcast" is, and what "recording" is parts company. If I said what could replace a Neve Capricorn in a truck you would probably say an SSL - or an Icon...

Oh by the way, the contributor doesn't need self promotion - he's seen more awards than most. tutt

[Roland]

Originally Posted by profaders

The "latest" broadcast trucks are not "all" fitted out using the manufacturers you state. In fact, in the US they are the minority among the high-end mobile production trucks. Calrec for one has led the charge in this field since 1997, starting with the S2 and Q2 - you also missed off Lawo et al.

Think you're wrong about the SSL comment - SSL never had a look-in in the broadcast trucks - not even analogue. But I think this is where the understanding of what "broadcast" is, and what "recording" is parts company. If I said what could replace a Neve Capricorn in a truck you would probably say an SSL - or an Icon...

Oh by the way, the contributor doesn't need self promotion - he's seen more awards than most. tutt

I haven't a clue what you are talking about, but the BBC did have more than one SSL equiped remote truck as did/does Sanctuary mobile, I'm sure there were a few others too.

I am aware that the BBC seem to have a lot of Calrec and some Lawo desks at the moment. I wasn't being brand specific, I did say "things like Euphonix and Studer Vista 8's" meaning modern digital consoles as against analogue large format consoles.

As for the difference between recording remotes and broadcast ones, broadcast will probably for the forseeable future require a console with a whole buch of faders that can be grabbed, recording wise this obviously as Steve is pointing out isn't always necessary, however in this ever changing market where we are more multimedia than ever before the broadcast truck is obviously more versatile.

Regards to all


Roland

[Roland]

I had to add a PS, I wouldn't fit a broadcast unit out with an SSL or an Icon (though I'm sure the icon could easily adapt for the work), as I indicated the Studer would probably be one of the best choices around at the moment.

Regards



Roland

[profaders]

Originally Posted by Roland

I had to add a PS, I wouldn't fit a broadcast unit out with an SSL or an Icon (though I'm sure the icon could easily adapt for the work), as I indicated the Studer would probably be one of the best choices around at the moment.

Regards



Roland

I was been ironic... hey ho. And I support the viewpoint from Steve.

Kindest

[Jim vanBergen]

Steve's model is great, and ASL does a killer job. But the rest of the truck world does not work to similar standards, as still, most of them are based in the video/TV world, and only a handful IMO are remote audio recording. Hey, Kooster has his API, Hewitt his Neves, Steve is the only one with flexibility.

All Mobile Video is mostly Neve (one Sony Oxford, two Studers, one analog Midas (what were they thinking? We don't know...maybe it was CHEAP) in their trucks. I have experienced Calrecs (yay!) SSLs (yay!) in 'sports' trucks, and I much prefer them to the trucks that have older Yamahas analog desks in them.

We make do with what works... in recording, we don't really NEED a desk (or not a multimilllion dollar desk) if the show will be posted properly. This is part of why the ASL Bread Mobile is such a killer way to work.

I hate the idea of the demise of the big console, but I also coun't keep a full time remote recording business in full swing after 9/11. You have to do what the market demands.

Hope these thoughts help.

Jim

[profaders]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

All Mobile Video is mostly Neve (one Sony Oxford, two Studers, one analog Midas (what were they thinking? We don't know...maybe it was CHEAP) in their trucks. I have experienced Calrecs (yay!) SSLs (yay!) in 'sports' trucks, and I much prefer them to the trucks that have older Yamahas analog desks in them.

Jim

Hi Jim.

Yes I agree...

But AMV has now ditched it's AMS Neve consoles after many years of struggle... ask Eric Duke (and please don't keep saying Neve, as these products have nothing to do with Neve - ask Rupert - they belong to Mark Crabtree and his AMS-Neve - But now Tom Misner: anyone want to but a diploma?).

Studer has moved in for the time being, filling a temporary vacuum. But in the US they have only two or three Vistas in mobiles. Yes, sports trucks in the US have dominated in the last 10 years and Calrec has mopped up due to their 30mm fader pitching, and dedicated engineering. But, sadly, they are not able to provide much beyond, due to a lack of understanding of the post business and their inability to address time code automation and 96khz sampling.

As far as SSL is concerned, the last so-called mobile product was the analogue 8K - a morphed 4K. The Axiom became the Axiom MT (ask the Hit Factory) which later become the MPT (thanks to guess who?). Digital and SSL at that time was not a happy camper.

The mobile truck business in the US is a multi-dollar sophisticated engineering operation. Operators are creating mixes for live broadcast and the multi-mix for later post production, which far out-stripped anything experienced.

Ed Green, Bob Dixon, Marc Repp, Bob Seiderman (bless him) et al - these people add to the remote broadcast experience.

Kindest...

[Roland]

Originally Posted by profaders

Hi Jim.

Yes I agree...

But AMV has now ditched it's AMS Neve consoles after many years of struggle... ask Eric Duke (and please don't keep saying Neve, as these products have nothing to do with Neve - ask Rupert - they belong to Mark Crabtree and his AMS-Neve - But now Tom Misner: anyone want to but a diploma?).

Studer has moved in for the time being, filling a temporary vacuum. But in the US they have only two or three Vistas in mobiles. Yes, sports trucks in the US have dominated in the last 10 years and Calrec has mopped up due to their 30mm fader pitching, and dedicated engineering. But, sadly, they are not able to provide much beyond, due to a lack of understanding of the post business and their inability to address time code automation and 96khz sampling.

As far as SSL is concerned, the last so-called mobile product was the analogue 8K - a morphed 4K. The Axiom became the Axiom MT (ask the Hit Factory) which later become the MPT (thanks to guess who?). Digital and SSL at that time was not a happy camper.

The mobile truck business in the US is a multi-dollar sophisticated engineering operation. Operators are creating mixes for live broadcast and the multi-mix for later post production, which far out-stripped anything experienced.

Ed Green, Bob Dixon, Marc Repp, Bob Seiderman (bless him) et al - these people add to the remote broadcast experience.

Kindest...

It does surprise me why they are struggling so much, argueably the market has never been better for supplying tools for the job. Why the take up of Studers is so slow over there I can't understand, rapidly they are becomming staple fare for TV companies all over Europe and to integrate them into a mobile should be relatively simple. If budgets are tighter there are plenty of good options from people like Digico, and Digidesign in the mid range, and if track count isn't too much of a problem how about soundcrafts newVi6, budget way into the Vista technology. As for Lawo, I'm not familiar with their products, but I'm sure they offer alternative solutions that some customers prefer. In comparison with what people were using 10-15 years ago the facilities available now in such compact packages are astonishing.

Regards



Roland

[Jim vanBergen]

Profaders,
sorry my nomenclature was offensive. AMS-Neve it is. I don't need to ask Eric, I work on their trucks often. Endurance still sports a 56-input (AMS?) Neve BTC desk, Crossroads has an AMS-Neve Libre Live II, and Barney has TWO Amek Recalls (I still like these desks, though they aren't right for broadcast, IMO they work for music.)

I'd much rather work on any of these, or the two Studer Vista 8's on AMV's two 'flagship' trucks, than the trucks sporting a Yamaha PM1D or PM5D- YECH!

If Rupert were to flesh out the Portico line into a desk, what would you think? Few of my clients still have the budgets for bringing in an audio truck to tie in with the video truck- most prefer I bring in a rack of pre's and recorders or a ProTools rig. Guys like AMV's Lenny Laxler have to make sure they have desks that can route well, be robust enough to handle sports needs, telco interfaces, and decent transmission, while being robust enough to live on a truck.

Do we NEED a desk with mojo? Hmmm. Yes, we need desks that sound good- but what happens now that all of us have proven we can collect the tracks and remix later for a good sound, saving the client money onsite? Have we slit our own throats? Has technology?

I like your Oracle article, and it makes us all THINK, which is great. It's good to meet you!



Regards,
Jim

[allaccess]

Jim-

not to knock Steve, who has a great truck and is a great guy, but my father's truck and portable packages certainly have as much flexibilty as Steve's. He's been providing such packages dating back to the late 70's when they took a massive flight pack to Cuba! He regularly sends out things as simple as a preamp and DAW rig to as complex as 100 inputs and as many tracks of DAW/D-827/DA-78s all over the world. With a desk or without... And the new digital truck is a pretty slammin little package if I do say so myself. He and Sam Berkow did a fine job putting that one together.

Cheers,

Ryan Hewitt

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Steve's model is great, and ASL does a killer job. But the rest of the truck world does not work to similar standards, as still, most of them are based in the video/TV world, and only a handful IMO are remote audio recording. Hey, Kooster has his API, Hewitt his Neves, Steve is the only one with flexibility.

Jim

[Remoteness]

There is no doubt that your Dad runs an awesome remote recording business. His 2006 TEC Award induction speaks for its self!

I was aware of the portable systems since 1979 but, I always thought that the consoles and certain gear in the two trucks were permanently mounted and not swappable. (I don’t want to speak for Jim, but I believe he was trying to say in the post above. I know he truly respects Dave and his many accomplishments.)

Not for nothing, there’s nothing wrong with that, most Remotesters do it that way. Jethro is (still) setup old school with permanent apparatus. I hope to start the conversion to the completely modular approach the end of 2007.

I wanted something different than everyone else by having the flexibility to exchange any piece of equipment as per the clients specific production needs. For that matter, our whole CRM environment can be completely changed out in Elroy and TBM mobile units.

That's what I call complete flexibility.

Originally Posted by allaccess

Jim-

not to knock Steve, who has a great truck and is a great guy, but my father's truck and portable packages certainly have as much flexibilty as Steve's. He's been providing such packages dating back to the late 70's when they took a massive flight pack to Cuba! He regularly sends out things as simple as a preamp and DAW rig to as complex as 100 inputs and as many tracks of DAW/D-827/DA-78s all over the world. With a desk or without... And the new digital truck is a pretty slammin little package if I do say so myself. He and Sam Berkow did a fine job putting that one together.

Cheers,

Ryan Hewitt

[Jim vanBergen]

Ryan (and Dave Hewitt if you ever read this)

Please accept my deepest apologies. I did not intent to slant your dad, David Hewitt in ANY way. He's a living legend, and a huge influence to me. I re-read my post and I am sorry for coming off that way. I did not know about RRS's flypack work, Silver has always been a huge shining star in my little universe- much like going to mix at Ocean Way or Abbey Road. It's BEYOND my scope of work, quite honestly. I think Randy Ezratty would also have been offended by my post...and it was not intended to slam anyone. I just like the way that Steve can work with ANY budget, put ANY console in one of his trucks. I think it's a really unusual business approach, and appeals to people working at many levels of production. Sorry I did not phrase it that way in my original post.

Mea culpa!! And thanks for the opportunity to correct myself.

Jim van Bergen

[allaccess]

Jim and Steve,

No offense taken! Just wanted to put out there that the old man does the portable thing, as not many people seem to know about it. The gear in the 2 trucks is indeed mostly fixed and not swappable, though the black truck was actually more flexible, as they took the majority of its contents on that gig in cuba in the late 70s.

I think that Steve's concept of complete flexibilty is rad! Being able to have whatever you want in there is definitely cool. Different strokes, ya know! I'm just glad that there's enough work to go around, that Steve and my father both do it well, and we're all friends!

Cheers,

Ryan Hewitt

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Ryan (and Dave Hewitt if you ever read this)

Please accept my deepest apologies. I did not intent to slant your dad, David Hewitt in ANY way. He's a living legend, and a huge influence to me. I re-read my post and I am sorry for coming off that way. I did not know about RRS's flypack work, Silver has always been a huge shining star in my little universe- much like going to mix at Ocean Way or Abbey Road. It's BEYOND my scope of work, quite honestly. I think Randy Ezratty would also have been offended by my post...and it was not intended to slam anyone. I just like the way that Steve can work with ANY budget, put ANY console in one of his trucks. I think it's a really unusual business approach, and appeals to people working at many levels of production. Sorry I did not phrase it that way in my original post.

Mea culpa!! And thanks for the opportunity to correct myself.

Jim van Bergen

[metromobile]

Howdy Folks-
We have a 50 channel Neotek Elite in our large remote truck. We also have two portable rigs with mic preamps, digital consoles, hard drive recorders, ProTools, etc. Our digital consoles just don't match up to our analog desks for live music broadcasts. My best work is done with the Neotek and piles of outboard analog gear. The digital stuff is a necessary compromise for specific gigs. Until the digital console designers give us an affordable and reliable 48 fader desk with EQ & aux knobs on every channel strip, I'll stick with the old school desk. Have a Cool Yule...
Timothy
Metro Mobile

[Jim vanBergen]

Timothy!

Don't leave us hanging, bro- how about some PICS? I'd love to see that Neotek and the racks of slutty outboard.

Happy holidaze,

JvB

[Remoteness]

Yeah, I second that my man!

[foldback]

My RV (recording vehicle) is always custom loaded depending on what the client needs. A few racks of Grace and API preamps direct to digital makes a great recording but I always bring along a 32 channel Yamaha console so I can lay down a reference stereo mix for the client. I've found that giving the client more than they paid for has been the best promotion I can spend money on. They love going home listening to a mix of the show they just performed in. It also helps them pick out the tracks they want to start mixing on first.

The other thing thats nice about having a console is all the solo buttons. Things happen fast when you're mixing live. Sometimes a mic stand might get bumped or something happens. You need to be able to get around fast. My console isn't huge or expensive but it's a necessary part of doing the best job I can, and heck, that's the reason I got the RV, so I could have an acoustic space to work in outside the venue.

[Remoteness]

Awesome foldback!

Got any pictures? Do you have a link to your website or gear list? Show it off!

I agree – Main or monitor mix consoles are very important even if it’s just a rough mix. IMO, that reference mix for the client is an imperative part of the production process for sure.

When it’s not necessary for a mix console or the budget is not there for it, we have an interesting solution for the solo button importance. We have a monitoring device that has a speaker, an analog meter and a set of solo buttons so you can reference the various inputs when necessary. I will post a picture of it soon.

[foldback]

I've been swamped with end of year projects. The new web site with the RV will be up in January.

[Steve Smith]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Timothy!

Don't leave us hanging, bro- how about some PICS? I'd love to see that Neotek and the racks of slutty outboard.

Happy holidaze,

JvB

Indeed!