Is DAT still the way to record club gigs??

[Sir Bob]

I did a search on "mini-disc" and saw the overwhelming response was that the sound sucks.

I have been using a Casio DA-7 DAT deck with two, quarter-inch ins for stereo recording. It has a "mic in" level so using my AT stereo mic (battery for phantom power) is easy. Just put it up in front of the band and set the level.

I have had great success with this simple system to document live performances except that every so often it breaks down and needs about $150 to fix. Also, everyone says DAT tape is a bad medium. I suspect that DAT is still the best I can do for easy portablity.

If not mini-disc, what about recording to a CD or harddrive. Is anyone have a good portable recording medium that fits about an hour of stereo on it?

[NYC Drew]

Tascam CD-RW700 or 2000
HHB CDR830, 830+ etc
Alesis Masterlink 9600

For quick and dirty recordings, I prefer the direct to cd types (1st two).

If I'm on tour and I need to make a dozen or so recordings over a week, the masterlink.

NYC Drew

[Bob Olhsson]

The quality of blank DAT tape has really taken a nosedive compared to what it was five years ago plus the parts for the machines are beginning to dry up. Combining those issues with the huge increase in average converter quality over most DAT machines pretty much makes it a dead format. Blank CDs are also available in most drug stores, something that has never been the case with DAT.

[Etnier]

Masterlink would be my choice: 24-bit, editing available, burns CDR's.

[hollywood_steve]

So far as buying a new machine goes, I'd have to agree with the others. But personally, my SV3800 will be recording stereo location dates until I can no longer get it repaired. I have found the Sony Pro DAT tapes to still be fully satisfactory and my machine is currently running as new. I figure that I can get at least 3 to 5 more years out of the DAT format and I can't say that there is anything else available today that I would prefer. Lugging my Genex GX9000 (or any other top quality HD recorder) is fine when the project calls for it, but many projects are still served fine by the DAT deck.

But my main point is that I definitely find DAT superior to any CD recorder that I have ever used for location work. My HHB BurnIt Plus is a consumer grade toy compared to the SV3800. (I'm not complaining about audio quality, just build quality and durability.) I don't know of any CD recorder that can handle the bumps,splills and other knocks of location work without missing a beat the way a good DAT machine can. I was amazed at how cheaply constructed even the best stand-alone CD burners are compared to a decent DAT deck; maybe the CD drives for computers are better constructed. Does anyone know of a computer CD drive that is built like a real piece of pro audio gear?

[Sir Bob]

I'm afraid you're right, Steve. I was looking into a Marantz portable CD recorder (#300) and it looked like the ticket on paper. It has preamps in it so I can just throw up my stereo mic and record.

I found a seller via the search engine and it got me to a very good site. They sold it for $700 but they listed buyer's comments. One guy said he was very disappointed because the quality of the field recording was very bad. A bad signal to noise ratio, etc.

I just sent in my portable DAT to Advanced Electronics on Venice Blvd. in LA and will be getting it fixed.

I was curious how you mix before going into the Panasonic SV 3800? A Mackie?

I like the simplicity of throwing up a stereo mic and going directly to the recorder. This is especially important as I have to set up my amp, pedals, guitars, get a balance on stage; so there is not enough time to fiddle with the recording stuff.

[hollywood_steve]

I was curious how you mix before going into the Panasonic SV 3800? A Mackie?

I like the simplicity of throwing up a stereo mic and going directly to the recorder. This is especially important as I have to set up my amp, pedals, guitars, get a balance on stage; so there is not enough time to fiddle with the recording stuff.


Mix? what mix? If I NEED to use more than 2 mics, then I will lug around the Genex GX9000. The SV3800 is strictly for the 2 mic gigs, usually a pair of KM184s in XY pattern, although I am hoping to get more opportunities to try MS.

I liked your comment about stereo mics as well. I've got a pair of omnis and another Coles 4038 at the top of my mic purchase list, but after those are done, a stereo mic, like a Neumann SM2 will be the next purchase. Maybe that new Telefunken M271, only $19k for the stereo model!

[fifthcircle]

Stereo mics kick serious butt.. I have no idea what I would do without mine... You combine great sound with a great image and the flexability to work in a variety of non-standard configurations (if it has multi-patterns).

--Ben

[mdbeh]

Originally posted by fifthcircle
Stereo mics kick serious butt.. I have no idea what I would do without mine... You combine great sound with a great image and the flexability to work in a variety of non-standard configurations (if it has multi-patterns).

--Ben

Ben, what are you using as a stereo mic?

[fifthcircle]

AKG C426... 9 patterns on each (large diaphragm) capsule. Nice smooth, slightly warm sound- basically the opposite of the rest of the AKG line. Sounds great in all rooms- makes the bad ones sound good and the good ones sound great.

On my website's listening examples it was used in numerous places-

Ex2- the only mic
Ex 4, the main mic in front of the orchestra (and drum kit)
Ex 5 drums (sort of a boomy recording, though)
Ex 8 drums
Ex 9 strings
Ex 11- main pickup...


--Ben

[Curious G]

A buddy of mine keeps talking up Soundfield mics. He's offered to lend it to me to check it out but I'm afraid I'll have to own one.

[Remoteness]

DAT may or may not be the way to record live gigs. Having backup options available will always be a good way to go.

Whatever recordable format you decide, consider different backup options when you're recording live to 2 track.

I personally like the convenience of recording to CDR. But I almost always back it up with at least DAT, DTRS or HD machines. Recording to various types of media keeps my confidence high when retrieving this "one of a kind" origination. I've had CDR machines fail to finalize or not playback the material correctly. If it wasn't for that DAT, etc. I wouldn't have captured a thing. I will keep running DAT and DTRS tape backup until all the hardware and media dries up for ever.

Our low res 2 track racks have an Audio Metrics DA (distribution amplifier) to drive the analog inputs, two Tascam CDRW2000 and two DAT recorders. Different DAT models depending on the rack.

Our Hi res 2 track rack has a Masterlink, two Tascam DA45HR DAT recorders and a Tascam DA98HR. There's a space for a (future purchase) HEDD192. The Analog inputs are driven by an Audio Metrics DA. The DA98HR is a SMPTE timecode tape backup to the Masterlink. The two DA45HR can record 24 or 16 bit DAT backup tapes.

We also have smaller low res racks that have two CDRW2000 and a CDD1X4 CD dubber. For multiple CD duplication.

I hope to include Genex GX9000 recorders to the arsenal in the near future.

As you can see, I don't feel comfortable without serious backup. Better to have the backup and not need it, then need the backup and not have it.

I too find DAT superior to any CD recorder. They can handle the abuse much better then a CD recorder.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by Remoteness
I too find DAT superior to any CD recorder. They can handle the abuse much better then a CD recorder.

True and I totally agree that one can't have enough backup of digital media. On the other hand I have little confidence in DAT any more because my Sony 7030 lights up like a Christmas tree with raw errors playing new tapes while you wouldn't even know the error-reporting was turned on playing a ten year old tape. Fuji still seems ok but we know this from the DTRS world too.

[Remoteness]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
...On the other hand I have little confidence in DAT any more because my Sony 7030 lights up like a Christmas tree with raw errors playing new tapes while you wouldn't even know the error-reporting was turned on playing a ten year old tape...

Ahh, lighting up like a Christmas tree...

That brings back memories (late '70s/early 80s) of the 3M digital multitrack machine. Even on it's best day, the many error lights really did look like a Christmas tree.

[bjornson]

Just a funny story... I ran front of house last week for a local bands cd release party. Told em i'd bring my 3x daxx rack and take the direct outs of the FOH console for the price of tape. The bass player said he was going to bring his digi002 and laptop and take the sub outs. The night of the gig, his rig kept fukkin' up and the only thing we got was my personal MD with stereo sony mic.
Glad I didn't leave home without it!

[grahluk]

I hope I'm not stating the obvious but you should be recording to a backup machine as well. Masterlink seems to be pretty popular. Recording to a protools rig live sounds risky unless it's a real good rig and then I would still have a backup recording going to dat or masterlink. What about laptop? I know there's legions of location recordists that are on that bandwagon. Metric Halo has a couple good boxes for an interface. A 2 channel one with supposedly awesome mic pre's (awesome as in mic pre awesome not mic pre in a interface ok). I have their 8 channel interface for my home studio but their mailing list users seem to be pretty avid location recordists. They have a bare bones recording app that is supposed to be rock solid so you can bypass the kludge of protools, DP, nuendo, Logic, etc, etc. I've also heard of people who've hacked ipods for recording. Also I think Creative makes/made something called a nomad that records in broadcast .wav. A well constructed portadat used to be the thing but as Bob pointed out I think Dat's days are numbered. I think we'll see some sort of portable HD recorders replacing the porta dats. As far as recording to CD that makes me cringe. We have a Sony CDR deck at work for backup record of voice overs and that doesn't inspire total confidence.

are there any portable hard disk recorders available? it seems like a small leap from an ipod to an ipod with adat or spdif inputs...