Closed Lid Piano Miking- as requested!

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

What's YOUR favorite way to mic a grand piano, lid closed?


Now, in the studio for solo piano, I like taking the lid OFF and using a C24 at about 7'.
But that's EASY compared to a great piano that has to fit perfectly in a mix.

Jim

Yea Jim, the lid off is great. No weird reflection off the lid. I like to remove the lid for jazz dates. (actually, I only do jazz dates)

I have had good results with a topless piano in a good room with a live band.(no isolation, or headphones) RCA 77s over the hammers. Or Neuman M49 or U47 on wide cardioid.

If it isn't practical to remove the lid, I go with the long stick. If the room is small I mic the soundboard with 1 SDC in a hole. I know that isn't so accurate, but this way a full band can play live without cans and isolation and I can still get a good piano sound without drums and shit getting in there.

Also, the old mic in the hole trick makes it sound like an old Blue Note record.

[Remoteness]

Yeah, I'm with you andy...

I too like no lid especially for live Jazz dates...

Although we must deal with it (most of the time) I don't like an openned lid with the short or long stick. The sound (leakage) gets captured in the piano a lot more with the lid attached to the piano.

We did the a bunch of Jazz DVDs for Panasonic called Panasonic Sound Essay w/ Dave Mathews & Friends that were released (only) in Japan -- The no lid piano technique was used a lot.

I sell this idea every chance I get -- I usually get blown off for the obvious reasons.

I'll try to find a photo or two of the Gaffer's tape (microphone cradle) technique Jim's talking about.

[rchilcott]

Jim,

I love this post and wish I would have read this a few years ago. I've tried a few times with a boundry mic on the lid of the piano and got great isolation, but the sound wasn't very spectacular. Luckily, piano was in the background and wasn't a focal point. Other times, I've done LD cardiod condensors spliting the piano in thirds.

I was wondering if you had any pictures of your gaffing technique, it sounds great and very ingenious. Thanks.

~Ricky

[sonare]

Another approach is DPA 4061s with the magnetic mounts. On the rib of the harp that runs the length of the piano that is closest to the curved side, place one at the intersection near the hammers and the other at the intersection above the bass strings.

There is very little leakage with the lid down. Because they are small diameter omnis it hardly matters how they are aimed and there is no proximity effect.

You will like what you hear!

Rich

[Ronnie Dixon]

I have miked behind the piano on several occasions. It seemed to be more consistant in the bottom register. Of course you have to blend it with some frontal microphones.
Micing a piano can be difficult if the piano has little or no consistancy within itself.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by rchilcott

Jim,

I love this post and wish I would have read this a few years ago. I've tried a few times with a boundry mic on the lid of the piano and got great isolation, but the sound wasn't very spectacular. Luckily, piano was in the background and wasn't a focal point. Other times, I've done LD cardiod condensors spliting the piano in thirds.

I was wondering if you had any pictures of your gaffing technique, it sounds great and very ingenious. Thanks.

~Ricky

I promise to try and remember to take a picture. Usually I'm thinking about the sound of the piano, not to show it off...

Hopefully I'll book a nice date with a great piano soon.
But if you're still waiting, please go ahead and remind me...I have a hard time keeping everything in my head...or in my computer...or blackberry. Life is just plain BUSY.

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by sonare

There is very little leakage with the lid down. Because they are small diameter omnis it hardly matters how they are aimed and there is no proximity effect.

You will like what you hear!

Rich

Yup, 4061s and Sennheiser MKE-2s are a secret weapon in my arsenal. I am doing a recording tonight with dulcimer, and that's what I'm using. Good on piano, but I tend to save them for violin, cello, and similar smaller instruments. Of course, DPA 4021s in the piano is ALSO a great sound....

Ronnie Dixon, I totally agree. A lousy instrument is a lousy instrument, and then a '57 on a piece of foam at the second hole sometimes suits best to give an old school feel instead of a shitty sound from a crappy piano.

[roonsbane]

My go to piano jazz mic is my Royer SF24. I see why Herbie won't travel without it. The first time I put it on and played for my fellow engineers they could not believe how good it sounded just flat. You can get in tight and it doesn't get harsh, just punchy. This keeps the drums under control, especially in larger rooms. Beautiful! This is with the lid at full stick which the band always seems to want. I wish I could get the lid off more often.

I have also always wanted to try Schoeps BLM's under the lid. These boundary mics are the only ones I have ever heard that sound full and natural.

How do you guys like to treat these mics reverb wise so they fit in sonically with the other not so tightly miked instruments? I usually dedicate a reverb to the piano IR1 with our Jordan Hall sample or PCM91 with Medium Hall cut down in time. I don't know that I have ever got it to match as well as I would like so I am always looking for new ideas.

Cameron

[resound]

Thanks for this thread, Jim. Anyone want to put up some sound samples so we can "appreciate" the differences in the techniques discussed?

[Jungle Jazz]

Did pictures of the gaff tape method of using mics inside a closed piano ever get posted anywhere? I'd like to see them. Thanks.

[yrplace]

It's been a while but I've had good luck using a pair of 451's with right angle swivels taped to the inside of the lid one placed near the hammers and one over the lowest strings.


Mark

[Jim vanBergen]

Hmm. Just did a setup tonight but used two DPA on clamps ...if there's time, perhaps I'll try and mock up the 414 method tomorrow during rehearsals for you.

[sonare]

OK Slutz, give this a listen and post your comments:

Rich

[ajfarber]

Well done Sonare! It sounds like a jazz recording. No stupid panning gimmicks. Point source imaging like I'm at the venue.

Actually, now that I listen a bit, the drums seem to be panned a bit too much for my taste. I'm listening with cans because everyone here is asleep, so I might not be getting an accurate stereo image.

The piano sounds great! This approach should be good for classical as well.

Well done!

BTW, am I the only guy left that still mic's a piano with only 1 mic?

[sonare]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

am I the only guy left that still mic's a piano with only 1 mic?

Perhaps! Thanks for the comments, and please do listen on speakers. The mp3 version also sounds little "flattened" (no surprise). As for panning, you may be mistaking cymbal bleed into the bass mic for intentionally wide drum pan.

Considering my earlier comments on DPA4061 for piano and bass, it should be no surprise that those are what I used. Drums were SF12 with HF lift.

RE: classical piano-- I would never put the mics inside the piano as I did on this. And in reference to the thread title-- this piano was a 9ft Steinway at full stick.

Rich

[phil.]

Great! For me this recording is all about the piano sound. Very jazzy with a lot of definition and depth. Did you roll of the highs on the bass in order to make the piano shine more? Interesting comment about the cymbal bleed. How were the instruments panned in the end?

I agree that a classsical piano sound would have to have more of a bloom from the whole instrument to it.

I like!!

Best.

Phil

[sonare]

Originally Posted by phil.

How were the instruments panned in the end?

This was recorded into Sequoia as stereo tracks for piano and drums, mono for bass. Piano left so that the "right side" of the instrument was next to the bass, and dru ms the same, but on the right. I may have adjusted pan so the cymbal nearest the bass lined up with the "bass bleed cymbal"-- I don't recall.

My natural inclination is to pan as the instruments were in the "real" so the inevitable bleed works for me. No "wide-screen drums" here, thanks.

Rich

[Jungle Jazz]

Sonare,

Thanks for posting that sample--great sound. I was curious to hear what the DPA4061 sounds like on piano and bass. It seems pretty faithfull. Although, I thought the bass could use just a tad more upper midrange to stand out in the mix. It seems a little distant, but clearly this performance is about the piano, which really pops.

[David Spearritt]

Rich, very authentic piano sound, excellent stuff. I think this is a fine example of the correct use of the 4061's so that their high self noise does not intrude, ie they should be positioned very close to a loud sound source. If that is the requirement, as in this case, inside a piano, or on the mouth of a narrator or singer, one can see they are an excellent choice, probably the best in fact.

[Jim vanBergen]

Closed lid, name I can't recall and piano tone I don't care for (evidently I'm a Bosendorfer & Steinway snob) - but I chose the 4022s over the 414s on this one.

Here's a very FAST way to mic a closed-lid piano.

AJ, I totally agree with the comments before- I like a C24 6' away from a fulll-stick piano to capture the real muances of the instrument. The closed-lid is really a live, down & dirty situation, which matches most of my real world live recording experience.

[Jim vanBergen]

Close-up that shows the rubber shockmounting and super-fast way to clamp these in the piano. Great isolation.

[Remoteness]

Nice photos JvB -- You are the man!

We must find some photos of the gaffer's tape cradle we've chatted about.
I'm going through many of my old pictures. I hope I find a few worthy of posting on this thread.

[Jungle Jazz]

Thanks for posting those photos. What kind of clamps are those? Would you use the same mic placements if you were using the gaff tape method?

[Jim vanBergen]

Thanks for the kind words, guys.

Jungle, those are K&M 237 table clamps on their side that screw directly into the DPA gooseneck and rubber triangle shockmount.

There are several ways I could have miked this partcular instrument. I only use these clamps with small mics like DPA or compact Schoeps, you could also use this with the AKG extension cables designed to remote the capsule from the preamp.

When you use the 414/gaff tape method, you have to worry more about where you can get the support you need while placing the mics well. In this instrument, I would have had to remove the stick (that sat about 1" just south of the clamps, and even with that the 414s would have slid down significantly and the mic covering the high would have moved down a section between the rails, especially because this piano is very bright sounding and in working with this instrument I actually muted the high mic in some selections.

Does that help? Sorry I did not have time to mock up the 414s for this instrument. I chose the DPAs once I played this instrument and found out its character, and we went that route.

Cheers!

Jim

[phil.]

Thanks Jim, very cool!

["DB"]

Two PZM's gaffer taped to the underside of the lid, one over the hammers, the other about half-way down the bass strings is a quick and easy way to a "decent" sound.

What's the difference between an oboe and a bassoon?
You can hit a baseball a lot farther with a bassoon.

[Jungle Jazz]

Thanks again Jim. That helps a lot.

[mastermix]

You guys got me thinking. Anybody ever tried a pair of Crown PCC-160's?

I'll have to do so next week when I have some piano stuff to do...

[Remoteness]

Here's a thread about a gig we did at the Blue Note with Conrad Herwig et al.

Gary uploaded a picture of how we cradled a pair of C414TLIIs for that closed lid piano recording.
Note: We used two Rowi clamps and Gaffer's tape when we cradled those piano mics.

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Yeah, I'm with you andy...

I too like no lid especially for live Jazz dates...

Although we must deal with it (most of the time) I don't like an openned lid with the short or long stick. The sound (leakage) gets captured in the piano a lot more with the lid attached to the piano.

We did the a bunch of Jazz DVDs for Panasonic called Panasonic Sound Essay w/ Dave Mathews & Friends that were released (only) in Japan -- The no lid piano technique was used a lot.

I sell this idea every chance I get -- I usually get blown off for the obvious reasons.

I'll try to find a photo or two of the Gaffer's tape (microphone cradle) technique Jim's talking about.