Question for Steve (Remoteness) re: drum mic

[MichaelPatrick]

Last night tracking a live jazz ensemble I used two mics, an Earthworks QTC-30 on the "knee" and a KSM44 "kit" mic in cardi over the drummer's shoulder. Sounded good. Can't wait to mix.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

...And, that's one mic --Pretty crazy stuff; Right?

Nice job!

Did you play around with the mic positioning or did you place it and go with it?

I don't really get to play around with mic position too much because I'm playing bass on the gigs while I'm recording. I can check things a little in headphones. Certainly not ideal, but it's all I can do. Sometimes I get lucky - other times not so much, but I always learn something. It's a steady gig so I get to keep trying.

I've also tried cardiod mics (Beyer MC930 and M160) but the results were not nearly as good as the omni. The M160 wasn't too bad.

Thanks again for helping out a rookie.

[Remoteness]

Sweet!

Keeping it simple and extremely efficient is the way to go.

IMO, you can always add mics (when necessary) as long as you have that one perfectly placed mic in the mix.

For me this concept has been around since cira 1982.
I came up with the idea because the band I was mixing live sound for had a lot of musicians and singers.
The venues we performed in rarely had enough working channels so everything can be heard properly.

The knee mic technique has been used on many sessions since then.

With that said, it does work well if the drummer mounts a cowbell in that same area.

[springer]

Hi Steve and fellow slutz,

I tried the "one mic at the right knee" technique the other night on an electronic jazz trio and I think it would be great for rock drums. However for my tastes on jazz drums it is missing the hi-hat and cymbal 'ping'. It seemed to capture much more of the snare/toms/BD than my other "one mic" technique which is over right shoulder which I think would be cool for rock. It sure was fun experimenting tho...

Setup specifics:
AKG c480/ck62 omni with -10db pad. Clamped onto xtra (non-used) tom peg. mic sitting right near 1 o'clock on the BD pointing up towards crash cymbal.

[Remoteness]

I hear you...

The "one knee" or "one Shoulder" mic technique is only two options.
Keep in mind you can place that single mic anywhere you wish.

We did a Jazz trio recording in an Italian Restaurant near MSG a couple of months ago.

I spec'd out the "over the shoulder" mic but my engineer for the date changed it and positioned the mic in front of the kit.

It sounded very good and was much better that the original position.

The ideas you find in this forum are starting points.
If they work for you -- Awesome.
If not -- Change the placement or try something different.
It's all good and anything is possible if you put your mind to it.

[Tom Hakala]

I was recording last week and the night was already a disaster when the desk broke up. We had to use this cheap 6 channel ALTO mixer to get the sound back for the last band. Well ALTO gave me only 6 channels to record, vox x2, guitar x2, bass... well so only one mic for drums. I had no time to think about pretty much anything than to get the sound back and the last band on stage. But I still wanted to record it.

So I remembered Steve's single drum mic trick and gave it a shot. Had no time to test how everything sounded. Just stuck my AT4040 close to drummer's right knee slightly pointing to the snare.

This is how it ended sounding:

http://koti.welho.com/thakala3/stuff...c%20at4040.mp3

just wanted to share !

[jdmmobile]

Someone beat me to it. It is the most natural drum placement I have found for toms. There is a sweet spot (depending on drummers crash height with combination of ride height) that you can find. Right over the right shoulder pointing at toms or over the knee, both spots are cool. Thanks Steve-o

Jimmy

JDM Mobile "Anywhere"

JDM Mobile | Remote location recording and broadcast company.

[Remoteness]

It's pretty wild that broken consoles in cheesy clubs got me to come up with this technique.

As many of us know, you'd be lucky to have a complete set of 16 working inputs because those dead channels seem to never get fixed.

This single mic technique came out of necessity.
Sometimes I had two channels available for drums, but most of the time it was only one...
If I had a second channel to use for the kit it ended up on the hi-hat because of the way the drummer played his kit.

Now-a-days I rarely use a hi-hat mic.

Crazy stuff!

Originally Posted by Tom Hakala

I was recording last week and the night was already a disaster when the desk broke up. We had to use this cheap 6 channel ALTO mixer to get the sound back for the last band. Well ALTO gave me only 6 channels to record, vox x2, guitar x2, bass... well so only one mic for drums. I had no time to think about pretty much anything than to get the sound back and the last band on stage. But I still wanted to record it.

So I remembered Steve's single drum mic trick and gave it a shot. Had no time to test how everything sounded. Just stuck my AT4040 close to drummer's right knee slightly pointing to the snare.

This is how it ended sounding:

http://koti.welho.com/thakala3/stuff...c%20at4040.mp3

just wanted to share !

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

I also love the fact that you also use the TLM103s in spite of the many people on the Gearslutz board who slam this mic. I love my pair in "monolith black" as Neumann calls them, and use them for drum OHs, inside piano, on strings, etc... love 'em.

I absolutely love 103's on Toms...there are worth a check there....will check out the right knee LDC...sounds interesting

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

I absolutely love 103's on Toms...there are worth a check there....will check out the right knee LDC...sounds interesting

I'm with you on this one...

I used C414s on toms in the studio with great success.
The TLM103s are awesome on toms and snare drums.

[royceg]

Remoteness

Thanks so much for finding my thread and directing me to this thread.

You know i had an instructor at school who always preached the idea of mic'ing the kit "inside" but either i missed that class or he never got to the practice . But i think what you do with the "knee mic" is what he was suggesting. He praised the use of Earthworks mics in that position but i never had the brains to realize using this tech. Will do now!

Anyhow Good stuff in the threads! Not to sound like a know-it-all or anything of the sort, as messages here can be misconstrued easily, but i try to do exactly what you do! (Awesome.) But you do the whole mic'ing behind the drummers shoulder? Nice!!! thats the kind of placement/ideas i was looking for. So far i have AKG430's as OH's and switch them with 451's or KSM44's depending. (I use the cardioid pattern, bc the people above us in another bar gig rumble above, due to subs cranking out serious bass. ) I'll throw in a "sweet spot" mic this weekend at the recording-gig .

Curious though, what about toms? Any suggestions knowing that some people like using a slew of toms and that hurts my mic'ing channels.

Im also kind of lost tho with this Gobos? Is it a DIY thing you do, like a cardboard crafting? Im lost bc at first i thought it was mic placement techniques, then i saw something about making a cardboard something?! Im lost. Hahaha, my apologies if im not "quick" here.

But i was wondering, and i know this is a thread for drums, but:

How do i isolate a singer who keeps shifting the mic? they move around moving its axis and faces the on-axis portion of the mic to the drummer making the bleed crazy!!! My vox mics pick up primarily drums until the singer kicks in . . .

And once again thnx for directing me here, using your techniques will def. give me more tracks in my meager 16-channel Live Recording rig .

[royceg]

One added thing, and i apologize if im hoggin the question spotlight, but i noticed the OH mics in some of your pics are at the same elevation.

I was told and have used this in practice many times and im not sure if anyone else does this, but i try to make the OH L and OH R equidistant to the snare, as it is the loudest transient response in the mix, which helps phase?
So if the OH snare-side is 3 feet up i pull the OH ride-side in closer to the snare to make up that 3 feet.

Any insights? Anyone?

Thnx for any response that comes.

[Remoteness]

Yeah, that’s one of the things I do around here; moving threads and such.

As you may have noticed I really like to use ribbons for overheads.
I try to avoid using close mics as much as possible, even on live dates, especially on toms.

Tech riders usually ask for all sorts of extra mics; I will usually track them, but I pay a lot more attention to the important mics like foot, snare, overheads, sweet spot mics and such.

Those ”Micro Gobos” are pretty simple gadgets really. Take a “Popper Stopper” pop filter or any of the tens of other brands and modify them to your spec. Think about using any type of material based on what you’re trying to accomplish, but don’t forget that proper mic placement technique is still the key to your signature sound. The Micro Gobos just help you isolate things a bit more. There are in no way a replacement for good mic placement.

Click on the Popular Tag “drumage” for more threads on drums and their mic’ing techniques.

Well, sometimes it’s impossible to isolate a singer that moves in all the wrong places.
You must try each and every mic you have available to find the best one for your situation.
A conversation with that "mobile" singer is another approach; you may want to educate him/her with your predicament and concerns.

In the final mix stage, automation and muting may be your only solution..
In a live mix situation a fast gate can be your friend, but it can be tricky if it’s not set right.

Hey, everyone has their way of doing things. I like to use Beyer M160s pointed straight down at the same elevation. I have noticed that most drummer’s ears are at the same distance from their kit and it hasn’t stopped them from hearing what they want to hear. I’m capturing the sound of the room not the drums per say.

I’ve seen and heard engineers use the OH L/OH R equal distant to the snare placement and it seems to work for them. Remember, there is no right way or wrong way of doing something until it’s an audible mistake.

I hope this helped!

Welcome to the forum - I trust you will enjoy what you find around here.

[royceg]

I can't be more ecstatic, as i've been clinging to this screen for a few days awaiting a response. And thanks for supplementing my school knowledge base with some new road-worthy knowledge. this forum has definitely revamped my intrigue with live sound.

This coming week my drum kit is gonna be mic'd utilizing your 6 mic technique. Last night i mixed the previous session i recorded and found some basic issues with my drums that i think your drum mic'ing can help avoid. (i.e kick phase possibly out b/c of the multitude of mic's i used, and toms that only give me the snap with no life.)

However, for those of us without a hyper cardioid on hand, how do you feel about using the standard cardioid? With the hyper, i assume you just get more breath from the room in the overheads?

I will be looking into a set of those M160's. I think those just made the top of my list. With the next purchase being those TLM's, naturally.

[fallforward]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

The ideas you find in this forum are starting points.
If they work for you -- Awesome.
If not -- Change the placement or try something different.
It's all good and anything is possible if you put your mind to it.

This should be the first line of the hippocratic oath of Audio Engineering...

I have read this entire thread about 8 times over the past year.

Thanks for everything you do Steve.
Robby

[royceg]

Originally Posted by fallforward

This should be the first line of the hippocratic oath of Audio Engineering...

Huh? Isn't the Hippocratic Oath pertaining to physician ethics?

Anyhooo, much respect to Steve Remoteness and his contribution to these forums/threads. With his proper application of basic microphone functionality, which he found through a trial and error basis, has brought him to a good standing and respect among his fellow engineers for his quality production and approach to sound engineering.

And now after my nose is thoroughly browned , i wanted to ask more about the kick mic Remoteness has been using???

i noticed no port on the kick and wonder how the overall response of the mic is without any "snap" from a beater. Is the "good leakage" what we would rely on to achieve the attack on the kick drum?

[Remoteness]

I must say it's nice to hear your kinds words; thank you very much.
Your nose may be a bit brown, just make sure it doesn't turn into a brown neck.
That could be pretty ugly.

Most folks that don't have a (hole) port in their front skin is going for that kind of sound. IMO, it sounds like the bass drum should sound. If you want snap you could always place a mic (reverse the phase) on the beater side. The drummer's right knee mic placement will get you that sound too.

[royceg]

Agreeable. Yah i was just curious. I find my boundary mic in kick works well, as well as other things ive used, so its just up for opinion on tonality?

BUT. .
Holy crud, I love this new mic placement. I used it for this past weeks recording and was stoked first off to have ALOT of extra channels, and second bc its sounded awesome! I kept soloing between OH's and Center and the Knee and it was awesome all around, full tones of the toms, nice brilliance from my overheads and full kick with good amounts of snap.

Much love and aprreciation. And the next project will be the micro-gobos placement to which i'll be trying to apply to future sessions. Hopefully i'll remember this week to post up some pictures and samples of the session!

[Remoteness]

Shouldn't it always be about tonality?
IMO, who cares how you get it done as long as it sounds right to the ear.

Originally Posted by royceg

Agreeable. Yah i was just curious. I find my boundary mic in kick works well, as well as other things ive used, so its just up for opinion on tonality?...

Recently, I recorded a drum set with 22 mics.
This is what the drummer demanded and I don't think tonality had anything to do with it.

Yes, I understood that he had (and used) two bass drums with extensions, two snares, three hi-hats, two rack toms, five floor toms and a bucket of cymbals; was it entirely necessary for us to use twenty-two mics? I say, not; I could have done it with five to seven carefully placed mics, but (IMO) it really wasn't about capturing the perfect drum sound.

[MrSoundGuy]

Hi Steve... great thread! Thank you as always for being so open about your technique. Its so rare. I have a question for you- I have seen you use the beyer 160s for OHs and certainly I see the advantage of the cardioid ribbons for isolation in a louder setting, but I've also seen you use your Coles. The latter was in a jazzier context. I believe those are Figure 8 mics. Anyway, beyond the quality difference between the Beyer and the Coles, is your choice of one versus the other have more to do with the sensitivity (pressure limits) or the difference in polar patterns. How does the Figure 8 "sound different," as drum overheads, I mean?

[Remoteness]

Hey!

Thanks for tuning into this (oldie, but goodie) thread.

The beyer M160s have been my go to mics for overheads in a live environment, especially when they're placed right.

I have rarely used the Coles (or Royer R121s for that matter) on OHs, but I've done it with good results...

My decision to use one set of mics over the other has a lot more to do with the room the drums are in and what's surrounding the kit than anything else.
IMHO, figure 8s work well for overheads when the room sounds best for drums.

Choosing the right distance is the key to making figure 8s work.

I hope my response helped!

Originally Posted by MrSoundGuy

Hi Steve... great thread! Thank you as always for being so open about your technique. Its so rare. I have a question for you- I have seen you use the beyer 160s for OHs and certainly I see the advantage of the cardioid ribbons for isolation in a louder setting, but I've also seen you use your Coles. The latter was in a jazzier context. I believe those are Figure 8 mics. Anyway, beyond the quality difference between the Beyer and the Coles, is your choice of one versus the other have more to do with the sensitivity (pressure limits) or the difference in polar patterns. How does the Figure 8 "sound different," as drum overheads, I mean?

[felixtoro]

Originally Posted by noamraz

Was just going through this thread now, that's 2 hours after i got a phone call from a band that want's to record tommorow several songs @ rehersal room with 8 preamps - which should capture Drummer,3 Vocals,Bass,2 Electric Guitars and Keyboard, This is for some kind of Internet-Broadcast review for their new Album.

Will try the "OVER KNEE" tommorow for sure!

I'll probably test Cardiod vs. Omni due noise control/Limited Isolation..

Good day ya All, Noam.

Steve himself has personally taught me this technique and I've used it on many occasions when I need to mic up a full band with my 8 channel interface and can't use 5 mics just on the drums. You have to move the mic around a few times before you find that sweet spot, but no one will ever tell the difference if it was 1 mic or 10. Works best with an omni in my opinion.

[Pezz]

i love this thread> I used one mic on this track because i only had one mic, placed near my right knee, an sm58 into a little micro br. http://dannypez.bandcamp.com/track/g...itars-or-drums I cant play drums very well but they sound ok, no? the kit is an old 1970's pearl... not that i used all of it!

[Remoteness]

Thanks Pezz!

Here are a few photos from a 13 camera shoot we did inside Elroy a few weeks ago.

I used an M149 in mono positioned by the (right-handed) drummer's right knee.

Notice the Mini-Gobo I placed above the microphone to block the ride cymbal a bit.

It worked smashingly!

My principle drum sound from tis session comes from the (M149) drummer's right knee, (M149) room mic about five feet front and center of the kit and my two M160s over the set. Basically four mics; kit, room and two overheads...

I also mic'd the toms with MD409s and snare had an MD431 and TLM103.
Depending on how I want the mix to sound, these mics may come in handy.

Oh, and it also helps to have Daniel Jakubovic, one of the most amazing drummers on this planet.
Daniel is a producer, songwriter, multi-instrumentalist to boot...

Daniel is an outstanding musician on so many levels!

Like I've said a number of times before, "An engineer is only as good as the musicians he (she) keeps!"

[boojum]

Steve, thanks so much for knowing, sharing, and knowing how to teach. This thread is the core of what is good in this forum. You know so much and share so openly and freely. Your effect is widespread.

Lugers!? Man, that beats a tongue and pastrami! NY has the steak joints and they do have class.

Keep the faith.

[felixtoro]

I was fortunate enough to be on a gig with Steve at the Blue Note yesterday. The right knee technique was in effect with drummer Jeff 'Tain' Watts. When we solo'ed the mic, not only was the isolation incredible, but a well rounded full drum kit sound was captured.

I look forward to night 2 recording Jerry Gonzales and the Forte Apache band.


Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Gearslutz App

[Remoteness]

Man, I was editing the photos I took, so I can post them up, but you beat me to it, Felix!

Well, here's a few more pictures of "Tain's Right Knee" TLM103 for your review...

I didn't even have to place a Micro-Gobo behind the Right Knee TLM because Tain hits the drums so incredibly even.
I mean, the ride cymbal and cow bell were perfectly balanced to the foot, snare, toms and crash cymbals.

The Right Knee and two M160 overheads together completed the drum soundscape for me, but I did have a M88 on the front bass drum skin and a KMS104 on the snare for some extra definition when needed.

Next time I will be trying a KMS105 on snare!

Jerry Gonzales has five tumbadoras surrounding him right in front of the bass rig.
We had two SM57 placed over his tumbas and congas.
He prefers using a SM58 for his trumpet which also captured the quinto which was front and center of the kit.
On top of that I added a Milab DC96B very low just behind his seat facing right into the tumbadoras.
Man, that sounded fabulous; it captured the sound of the percussion perfectly without a lot of bleed from any other instrument, even the bass rig that was right behind the DC96B.
Tonight, I plan to add a Micro-Gobo just behind the DC96B for tha extra separation from the bass rig.
I will try to remember to take a few picture of that setup too...

Perhaps Felix already took a few pictures of last night's setup; I don't know.

Originally Posted by felixtoro

I was fortunate enough to be on a gig with Steve at the Blue Note yesterday. The right knee technique was in effect with drummer Jeff 'Tain' Watts. When we solo'ed the mic, not only was the isolation incredible, but a well rounded full drum kit sound was captured.

I look forward to night 2 recording Jerry Gonzales and the Forte Apache band.


Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Gearslutz App

[Remoteness]

No, thank you Sandy!

That's very kind of you to say.

IMHO, the wonderful members of this awesome forum are the core of what is good about this forum.

I will never give up on something I cannot go a day without thinking about!

The "Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording" forum is a great place to be -- thank you for helping me make it so!

Originally Posted by boojum

Steve, thanks so much for knowing, sharing, and knowing how to teach. This thread is the core of what is good in this forum. You know so much and share so openly and freely. Your effect is widespread.

Lugers!? Man, that beats a tongue and pastrami! NY has the steak joint s and they do have class.

Keep the faith.